Western Rail Corridor

Ham'nd'egger

Judgement Day wrote: »

I think that this is something of an Urban Myth which keeps on popping up on message boards such as IRN and Rail Users Ireland but I have yet to see any evidence of CIE/IE ever giving in to public opinion or political pressure. In case you didn't know the Board (aka CIE/IE) have the opposite to the Midas Touch and everything and everyone that they come into contact with turns to s....t - ask Michael Lowry and the crane hire fellow who used to be Chairman.]

In all fairness, you are talking through your hoop if you want to claim that CIE doesn't encounter political influence; one could write a book on the topic given the right information feeds. Me thinks Victor or Calina could do worse things than show you the door:rolleyes:

Judgement Day

Hamndegger wrote: »

In all fairness, you are talking through your hoop if you want to claim that CIE doesn't encounter political influence; one could write a book on the topic given the right information feeds. Me thinks Victor or Calina could do worse things than show you the door:rolleyes:

I didn't say that CIE/IE don't encounter political influence I said they don't repond to it. Remember the mini-CTC scandal; Horgans Quay, O'Leary's Crane Hire etc.etc.
PS Just because you don't agree with me no need to be personally offensive.:P

DWCommuter

Judgement Day wrote: »

No - both the so called 'Western Rail Corridor' and the Cobh Junction/Midleton line were closed and nothing was going to be spent on them. My point all along is that if massive amounts of money are to be poured into rail projects then a maximum return must follow or it will undermine the case for any further investment in similar projects. I just don't think that CIE/IE have any credibilty left as a transport company - a property development company or a demolition company yes but running trains no!!! Some form of privatisation is the only answer.:):)

Where have I heard that before?:D How's it goin JD? You're either someone I know or an internet clone.:eek:

CIE are ****e, yeah yeah, blah blah, your right, I agree, but I don't need to read it here anymore. Who the **** does? We know. (Well those of us with a shred of brain tissue anyway,) The rest will never be convinced.

But Im really amazed at how the WRC still commands marathon threads like this. It is trully the rape or consentual orgasmic sex of many people. Will it ever end I wonder? Im happy to have enjoyed the wrath of westies in the media and online. Im happy that they met with me, heard my views on the WRC and other more important issues affecting rail in the west of Ireland. They chose to ignore the other more important issues, due to their one trick ponyism style and thats their ill-judged perogative. They got a bit of it and now we are debating the merits of that. Galway - Limerick will be a joke, if the N18 is finished. But as this is Ireland, the N18 probably wont be finished, while the WRC biteen will be. That part of Ireland needs the road more, but the oul belt tightening has kicked in. Do we hear screams of protest that the Atlantic Road Corridor is looking decidely dodgy? Eh no. That's because the wise westies couldnt give a toss. It was the tramway railway that they wanted and they got a bit of it.

Whether its railcars, tramcars, horsecars or boxcars, it won't matter, because the population density isn't there to justify it anyway. It will never make back its operatings cost even in the CIE school of economics. Why? Low population, multiple choice = too thin a spread. End of story. And by the way, CIE didn't want to build this line. They didn't want to do midleton either. They don't even want to do Navan for ****s sake. Check out the relevent thread on this forum. Rail projects are being implemented on the basis of western moaners (with political influence and "poor us" historical sensibilities) and property developing friends of Fianna Fail. Christ its simple.

Im happy to accept all this, because from roads to buses to railways to JC Decauxe signs along roadways to signposts, the workings of this country are why the Irish as a race have been laughed at across the globe. The americanised/englified stereotype of the Irish is actually accurate enough for me to sit back and break my bollox laughing. Live your life within this understanding and you can be far more worthy to both yourself and life in general, while not getting overly worked up (likle I have in the past) about threads/railways like this piece of victorian ****e.

I'll revist the thread when it reaches page 100!:D Ah no, I'll come back for a laugh much sooner.

Judgement Day

Who rattled your cage Derek? :)

trellheim

Some times I wonder if there are the same 4 people discussing Irish transport policy , each wearing a different Groucho Marx fake moustach/email address/forum/handle every time


Some of you even argue with yourselves on the forum.

Ckal

DWCommuter wrote: »

Where have I heard that before?:D How's it goin JD? You're either someone I know or an internet clone.:eek:

CIE are ****e, yeah yeah, blah blah, your right, I agree, but I don't need to read it here anymore. Who the **** does? We know. (Well those of us with a shred of brain tissue anyway,) The rest will never be convinced.

But Im really amazed at how the WRC still commands marathon threads like this. It is trully the rape or consentual orgasmic sex of many people. Will it ever end I wonder? Im happy to have enjoyed the wrath of westies in the media and online. Im happy that they met with me, heard my views on the WRC and other more important issues affecting rail in the west of Ireland. They chose to ignore the other more important issues, due to their one trick ponyism style and thats their ill-judged perogative. They got a bit of it and now we are debating the merits of that. Galway - Limerick will be a joke, if the N18 is finished. But as this is Ireland, the N18 probably wont be finished, while the WRC biteen will be. That part of Ireland needs the road more, but the oul belt tightening has kicked in. Do we hear screams of protest that the Atlantic Road Corridor is looking decidely dodgy? Eh no. That's because the wise westies couldnt give a toss. It was the tramway railway that they wanted and they got a bit of it.

Whether its railcars, tramcars, horsecars or boxcars, it won't matter, because the population density isn't there to justify it anyway. It will never make back its operatings cost even in the CIE school of economics. Why? Low population, multiple choice = too thin a spread. End of story. And by the way, CIE didn't want to build this line. They didn't want to do midleton either. They don't even want to do Navan for ****s sake. Check out the relevent thread on this forum. Rail projects are being implemented on the basis of western moaners (with political influence and "poor us" historical sensibilities) and property developing friends of Fianna Fail. Christ its simple.

Im happy to accept all this, because from roads to buses to railways to JC Decauxe signs along roadways to signposts, the workings of this country are why the Irish as a race have been laughed at across the globe. The americanised/englified stereotype of the Irish is actually accurate enough for me to sit back and break my bollox laughing. Live your life within this understanding and you can be far more worthy to both yourself and life in general, while not getting overly worked up (likle I have in the past) about threads/railways like this piece of victorian ****e.

I'll revist the thread when it reaches page 100!:D Ah no, I'll come back for a laugh much sooner.

I can see your point, but do you really want one half the country lagging behind while the rest of the country speeds ahead? The Galway-Limerick route will make money. But the Sligo-Athenry bit could be trouble.
I can see how "Westies" can be a pain in the arse, but don't they have a right to these things too? I'm not implying that you said that, but most people think that the Westies should have ****. They (well, most of them) pay the tax bills they get, they pay the revenue etc., but they don't get anything for it really. The East has got the DART, the M50, [proper] Commuter services, 2 LUAS lines, a proposed metro, more motorways...
You [the public] might argue that Westies get grants etc, but that's because they haven't got what the East have. They don't have Motorways (yet), they don't have DART lines and proper rail lines, they don't have trams etc. The WRC can help develop the Cork-Limerick-Galway corridor more, and maybe the Galway - Tuam - Sligo area might see some benefits from it also.

Again, I can ser your point completely, but I think they do need the WRC.

paulm17781

Ckal wrote: »

I can see your point, but do you really want one half the country lagging behind while the rest of the country speeds ahead? The Galway-Limerick route will make money.

The DART is the only railway in the country that makes money. This definitely won't. I don't think railways should have to make money but facts are important in these debates.

Ckal wrote: »

Again, I can ser your point completely, but I think they do need the WRC.

You don't see his point at all. The WRC is a complete waste. Derek (and other including myself) gave various ideas and plans to the WoT people that would make far more sense than the WRC will ever make. None the less, people said the WRC is more important without actually having done any research.

The WRC will be a failure, there is no doubt about this. Derek's point was they could have spent the money giving proper infrastructure to the towns / cities in the west rather than building a rail line in the middle of no where.

It was never about the East getting everything and the west nothing (despite a lot of the whinging that happened) the point was always sensible projects that would make a difference instead of running empty trains along a slow winding line.

IIMII

Ckal wrote: »

but they don't get anything for it really. The East has got the DART, the M50, [proper] Commuter services, 2 LUAS lines, a proposed metro, more motorways...

When I tried to find a LookEast.ie site to compare with LookWest.ie, I couldn't find one.

lord lucan

Ckal wrote: »

I can see your point, but do you really want one half the country lagging behind while the rest of the country speeds ahead? The Galway-Limerick route will make money. But the Sligo-Athenry bit could be trouble.
I can see how "Westies" can be a pain in the arse, but don't they have a right to these things too? I'm not implying that you said that, but most people think that the Westies should have ****. They (well, most of them) pay the tax bills they get, they pay the revenue etc., but they don't get anything for it really. The East has got the DART, the M50, [proper] Commuter services, 2 LUAS lines, a proposed metro, more motorways...
You [the public] might argue that Westies get grants etc, but that's because they haven't got what the East have. They don't have Motorways (yet), they don't have DART lines and proper rail lines, they don't have trams etc. The WRC can help develop the Cork-Limerick-Galway corridor more, and maybe the Galway - Tuam - Sligo area might see some benefits from it also.

Again, I can ser your point completely, but I think they do need the WRC.

the thing is,dublin's a city that has grown beyond all recognition in the last 20 years but sadly it's infrastructure hasn't. luas/metro/M50 upgrades etc are only going to be enough to service the city. the capitals infrastructure has lagged far behind the level it should be at. it's only in the last 10 years where i've had the money to travel that i've seen some of the major cities of the world and the infrastructure that goes with them. dublins transport infrastructure is shocking,how they can think of by-passes/m-ways down the country is beyond me when dublin is left so chronically choked by traffic.

when the red cow roundabout was being built they didn't sanction the money for a spaghetti junction,they went with the cheaper roundabout and put the rest towards by-passing castlebar. it would have only cost about another £5million to upgrade it back then but flynn opted to help out his constituents with a by-pass while dublin suffered for years with the mad cow roundabout that's now being corrected at a ridiculous cost to the state.

the population base is in dublin,why it's suggested that dublin gets too much is beyond me,it's been shafted far too many times because of parochial politics.

Sponge Bob

lord lucan wrote: »

,how they can think of by-passes/m-ways down the country is beyond me when dublin is left so chronically choked by traffic.

That has nothing to do with divvy Dubs moving to Cavan and Laois and DEMANDING a motorway for their daily commute , of course not

We country people only want Motorways so we can play away hurling matches and get home for Tea.

IIMII

Sponge Bob wrote: »

We country people only want Motorways so we can play away hurling matches and get home for Tea.

Nothing wrong with that. The come-back of Munster hurling was obviously related to improvements in roads during the nineties. Mind you, Myles na gCopaleen once claimed that the prelence of potholes between Cork and KJerry was the product of competing factions of hurlers knocking pot holes in the roadways, so maybe it was the fault of the hurlers that things got so bad in the first place

Sponge Bob

IIMII wrote: »

maybe it was the fault of the hurlers that things got so bad in the first place

:eek: That was well before the 1980s , I though Potholes only dated back to then :eek:

DWCommuter

Judgement Day wrote: »

Who rattled your cage Derek? :)

Ah come on, you know my cage was rattled years ago. Nowadays, it has been left open and regularly hosts kinky parties with chains and whips and all kinds of weird stuff. I escaped it a long while back. Rental was much better and I prefer freedom. As for the WRC? I enjoy laughing at it and its supporters these days. Its far more fulfilling.

Sponge Bob

Whats the poing dt , its long dead fiscally .

Save the living if you can ( after todays exchequer figures) or maybe even the merely undead like Metro North .

Carawaystick

Ckal, would you want a good road system in Connacht or a train line that closes for several months after a bit of rain, and even if it was running would only bring you a few select places if Irish rail hired enough staff to bring you where it suited them?

When's the last time you used intercity public transport?
When's the last time you used intracity public transport?

Zoney

Ah quit yer whinging. The only thing happening is the entirely sensible Ennis-Athenry, a relatively small project which will allow people to get between Galway, Ennis and Limerick by rail and avoid hellish traffic queues at both cities, and a long rambling bus trip for public transport. Roads are no more a complete solution for the regional cities than they are for Dublin.

People might like the idea of Navan rail etc. having happened first, but the reason they haven't is quite simple. They are more extensive projects than simply fixing up a short distance of track that isn't long closed. Ennis is not an inconsequential place either, being larger than Navan, or say, Sligo.

Just a huge pity the line does not pass by Shannon or it would be a great boon to the airport and the whole area from north of Galway to south midlands/north tipp, midwest and even Cork in terms of air access. At least the N7 Limerick Southern Ring Road and Limerick-Nenagh will have a similar effect, although it might be a case of too little too late (Shannon should all along have had cachement extending to south midlands and indeed Cork).

loyatemu

even if it went right through the airport, I doubt it would be heavily used.

IIMII

Zoney wrote: »

Ennis is not an inconsequential place

Indeed Ennis is most definitely not an inconsequential place, which is why Ennis already has a rail connection to Limerick, Dublin and Cork (the first, second and third biggest cities south of the border). From the point of view of someone living in Ennis, the line to Galway is a second railway heading in a polar opposite direction

Zoney wrote: »

being larger than Navan, or say, Sligo.

Depends on your measure.

[quote=IDA website]Ennis, the capital of County Clare, has a population of 20,000, with the population rising to 472,000 within a 60km (37 mile) radius.[/quote]
Navan has the guts of a 2 million population if you use that type of measure.

Anyway it should be based around need rather than size, and if you used prospective patronage as the measure then I think Ennis-Galway would fall far short by multiples of Navan-Dublin

Zoney wrote: »

simply fixing up a short distance of track that isn't long closed

One thing I can't fathom is this. If the Navan allignment as a commuter railway could only support line speeds of 50mph, I'd say rebuild it to 75mph or leave it mothballed until such times as an upgrade was possible. As it happens even with an alignment designed for 75mph the Navan line still needs a rebuild.

But realistically, for Ennis Athenry to be an intercity line (never mind a commuter line) it needs a comprehensive rebuild too.

The prospect of a 50mph limit on the WRC is sad given that the Department of Transport are billing this as an bona fide, honest to goodness Intercity rail line.

If the Dublin Cork rail line had a 50mph speed limit and was lying there disused, I'd make sure that the Cork-Dublin motorway was built before I turned my attention to reopening the line. Even then, I'd only reopen the line once it had been reengineered for decent speeds on a new allignment where nessessary, with gentler gradients than those that would limit a line to 50mph.

I can't understand why the same logic doesn't apply to Ennis Athenry - build the WRC by all means but either do it properly or not at all.

Either way, hats off to people power in the west. It's a pity the rest of the country didn't demand infrastructure in the same focused way. If the rest of the island took more than a passing interest in transportation issues, we'd either have a more focused Department of Transport or a state infrastructure office with real transport plans as opposed to political transport agendas

KC61

IIMII wrote: »

The prospect of a 50mph limit on the WRC is sad given that the Department of Transport are billing this as an bona fide, honest to goodness Intercity rail line.

If the Dublin Cork rail line had a 50mph speed limit and was lying there disused, I'd make sure that the Cork-Dublin motorway was built before I turned my attention to reopening the line. Even then, I'd only reopen the line once it had been reengineered for decent speeds on a new allignment where nessessary, with gentler gradients than those that would limit a line to 50mph.

I can't understand why the same logic doesn't apply to Ennis Athenry - build the WRC by all means but either do it properly or not at all.

I'm not sure where you're getting 50mph from - as I understand it, the line is being built to 70mph standard.

IIMII

It was fifty and to be fair many other lines were restricted to that max speed for reasons of conservation and track quality. But there are some steep gradients and quite a few really, really sharp bends. Plus lots of crossings

They are just relaying track for most of it - can't see it being more than fifty along most of it, and quite possibly less on many parts of it

It would be great if it could even reach 70mph to give it something resembling zip for some sections but I can't see it, not with the works I've seen.

Don't get me wrong, there are significant works and investment ongoing, but nothing that radically alters the 19th century rural branch line nature of the railway. It's very similar to the Navan-Kingscourt line in many ways, it just wasn't build for speed but rather more leisurely goods and mixed traffic

You could extend the comparison with Navan again for pig-irons sake. The Navan-Clonsilla (Dublin) line was extended to become the Clonsilla-Kingscourt line when it was built.

The first portion from Dublin to Navan was as straight, only had 2 level crossings and was as level as Belfast & Cork lines(1:100 gradients) as you could hope for a railway if you hoped to use it for fast trains. The Kingscourt extension was built on a tighter budget and had some relatively steep climbs and bends (something like 1:60 gradients), and something like 15 level crossings (and only 2 underbridges iirc) along it's 20 miles.

In your right mind you could see a future use for a high quality alignment like the Navan-Clonsilla section, but you would only seriously consider Navan-Kingscourt as a freight extension again, unless you were willing to spend lots of dollars on reengineering it to make it faster, flatter and with flyovers, which would not be worth doing for populations such as are at Kingscourt, Nobber, Wilkinstown, Kilmainhamwood etc.

The great pity about it is that the Kingscourt line last saw a train only 7 years ago and was only severed at the junction only a matter of months ago, whilst Navan (Clonsilla) was 45 years ago when other lines like the Harcourt Street line also closed. But despite that time difference, both sections would probably require similar levels of work to bring them back to decent passenger standards.

Even if you relaid the Kingscourt line with brand new track, it still wouldn't take trains travelling above 50mph. However, sure we can only see what will happen with Ennis Athenry. The track might be to 70mph standard, but is the line? What's the current limit on Ennis-Limerick?

bk

IIMII wrote: »

Either way, hats off to people power in the west. It's a pity the rest of the country didn't demand infrastructure in the same focused way. If the rest of the island took more than a passing interest in transportation issues, we'd either have a more focused Department of Transport or a state infrastructure office with real transport plans as opposed to political transport agendas

I have to disagree with that, other parts of the country did demand infrastructure in the same focused way and got it.

Cork jumps to mind, which came up with a very good plan, built a relatively very good road network and now are working on practical commuter rail projects.

But you don't hear much about it much, because the projects were very practical and they just work.

But we constantly hear about and focus on Western politicians and their WRC, because instead of building their citizens a practical and useful infrastructure, they instead landed them with a white elephant that will be of little use to most people.

IIMII

bk wrote: »

instead of building their citizens a practical and useful infrastructure, they instead landed them with a white elephant that will be of little use to most people.

I don't disagree with that - I'd imagine the N18 would be more useful generally on the Limerick Galway axis

invincibleirish

Zoney wrote: »

Just a huge pity the line does not pass by Shannon or it would be a great boon to the airport and the whole area from north of Galway to south midlands/north tipp, midwest and even Cork in terms of air access. At least the N7 Limerick Southern Ring Road and Limerick-Nenagh will have a similar effect, although it might be a case of too little too late (Shannon should all along have had cachement extending to south midlands and indeed Cork).

Better idea: build Airport in Cork with Shannon length runways.

Schuhart

invincibleirish wrote: »

Better idea: build Airport in Cork with Shannon length runways.

Spot on. Its remarkable that Cork has managed to achieve the same passenger load as Shannon without a history of artificial incentives or a dedicated state agency mandated to generate air traffic. All with a runway shorter than Knock.

Just to get a picture of the extent to which Shannon advocates are in denial, have a look at the map at the back of this submission made by Shannon airport management opposing suggestions that the world is not flat the Open Skies negotiations.

You'll notice that Shannon seems to be the only airport outside Dublin, and its catchment area includes not only Cork but Edenderry and most of County Kildare. What's the point of trying to talk sense to people who peddle that kind of fantasy?

Chris_533976

You'll also notice how accurate they were when it comes to Waterford

lmao by that map Dublin Airport serves Dublin county only, and Shannon the rest of the country...

corktina

are they mad? a 2 hour drive from Kenmare???? that map is seriously flawed....

dowlingm

In my opinion the success of service north of Ennis will depend on how good the connections are at Athenry - to Dublin bound/originating trains like the 0728 dep EB and the 2012 arr WB. PaleRail will out More seriously, being able to route some Clare, Galway and Mayo GAA specials via Athenry towards Dublin might be a help occasionally.

A Shannon spur would be most useful in the development of Shannon town both as a destination and for Limerick commuting - the sustainability of an airport like Shannon in a peak oil scenario demands reinforcing its catchment, so Clare has to come up with a strategy to develop Ennis and Shannon and quit messing around with boundary issues with Limerick. A lot of money has been spent on the dual carriageway, the bypasses and now the railway and it's time for Clare to make good use of it.

As for line speed - it seems to me that if 75mph was contemplated it would have been trumpeted by IE. As I understand it Ennis-Limerick is 50mph as it stands and even less over the Longpavement bridge unless works have been done in the last year.

IIMII

dowlingm wrote: »

being able to route some Clare, Galway and Mayo GAA specials via Athenry towards Dublin might be a help occasionally.

Occasionally, maybe. But Sat/Suns are relatively quite on all lines. On an aside, has Kildare gotten Sunday commuter services yet?

DWCommuter

IIMII wrote: »

Occasionally, maybe. But Sat/Suns are relatively quite on all lines. On an aside, has Kildare gotten Sunday commuter services yet?

Yes.

Schuhart

I know this is The Thread That Never Dies, but I thought of it when I read this letter in the Irish Times.

The writer is complaining at an absence of commuter rail development in Cork, with the focus of her ire being investment in Dublin.

I just had that feeling of despair, at how these mistaken arguments seem almost engraved in the public mind. Sensible, cost/benefited, justifed investment in Cork suburban services doesn't arrive. Where is the blame to go? On the possibility of sensible, cost/benefited, justifed investment being made in Dublin, not the fact that ludicrous, unjustified investment is being made even as we speak in the WRC.

What do we do to correct this kind of thing? I mean, I want to roll up yer wan's letter and invite her to stick it into whatever orifice comes to hand. But that's hardly going to get her to engage with the reality of the country she's living in. How do we move these mindsets to something approaching sanity?