Western Rail Corridor

Judgement Day

Well in fairness the IT letter writer may have a valid point. The 'plan' for future rail development in the Dublin Area looks like it was produced on the back of an envelope and to hell with reality, necessity or cost. We have Metros, Luas lines (that will utimately be too long), DART Interconnectors etc. The whole thing is a disaster and will cost a fortune and at the end of the day will be a mishmash of disconnected systems going all over the place. The London Underground map it will not be.

The WRC is a farce but as an enthusiast I will travel over it on the opening day. Much more easily achieved than the reopening of the old West Cork railway would be the extension of the Cobh Junction/Midleton project to its logical conclusion in Youghal.

Here's to the thread that will not die!! :D:D

monument

Judgement Day wrote: »

Well in fairness the IT letter writer may have a valid point.

She may have if she was pitting it against the idea of the WRC. But she was pitting central and the Greater Dublin Area against in her words "a huge expanse of land" that is West (county) Cork. She mentions the large population, but doesn't mention how dense it is, or rather isn't.

Judgement Day wrote: »

The 'plan' for future rail development in the Dublin Area looks like it was produced on the back of an envelope and to hell with reality, necessity or cost. We have Metros, Luas lines (that will utimately be too long), DART Interconnectors etc. The whole thing is a disaster and...

There is a whole host of problems or possibly problems with the rail sections of Transport 21 for Dublin, but to call the "whole thing" "a disaster" is a bit too much.

Judgement Day wrote: »

... will cost a fortune and at the end of the day will be a mishmash of disconnected systems going all over the place.

Disconnected? If/when the rail sections of T21 are all finished there will be around 20 stations/stops with transfer to other lines.

4 of 5 Interconnecter stops will have connections to other rail lines - linking Dart, Commuter, Luas, Metro, and Intercity services.

Judgement Day wrote: »

The London Underground map it will not be.

To look for anything near a London Underground map any time soon would really be saying "to hell with reality". But the post-T21 map of the Greater Dublin Area rail map is a step up. It shows a network of lines with a decent number of connections.

dowlingm

Cork in fairness got its planning act somewhat together with the CASP/LUTS and Ove Arup gave the thumbs up as far as Midleton years ago. Money was the issue but as soon as money came it got shovelled elsewhere. As that fella Barry O'Bama says, you can't blame folks for being bitter :pac:

stiktoir

The usual uninformed guff about T21 from our turf cutting cousins.
I could'nt care less if people in Cark have to travel around in horse and carts.
Without Dublin Cark would be like Zimbabwe.
Dublin, the engine of economic growth in Ireland needs a modern public transport systemto compete with it's international rivals.
That's reality.

Judgement Day

stiktoir wrote: »

The usual uninformed guff about T21 from our turf cutting cousins.
I could'nt care less if people in Cark have to travel around in horse and carts.
Without Dublin Cark would be like Zimbabwe.
Dublin, the engine of economic growth in Ireland needs a modern public transport systemto compete with it's international rivals.
That's reality.

Troll Alert. Troll Alert. :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

dowlingm

well - he does have a bit of a point there although instead of Bob Mugabe we have Frank Murphy and the County Board

invincibleirish

dowlingm wrote: »

Cork in fairness got its planning act somewhat together with the CASP/LUTS and Ove Arup gave the thumbs up as far as Midleton years ago.

There lies the problem that epitomises Irish Politics.

Cork did some planning to increase densities along an alignment, and the result was the reopening of the Midleton line, all 15km of it (or thereabouts). Or at least will eventually open, having being first announced in 2004.

The West did **** all for years planning wise but used its political clout and got €800m to reopen a useless line devoid of any planning or strategy to make even a legitimate case to re-open a railway.

The WRC will be a drain on the public purse long after its opened, Midleton extension meanwhile will pay for itself or at the worst require minimum subvention.

But as the lady in the Irish Times demonstrates, the me feiner attitude is alive and well, and whilst i may not agree with her i do think her attitude is the right one in an Irish context, why should Cork come up with such things like the CASP & LUTS when all 'they' really need to is shout loud and hard and 'demand' iconic/white elephant infrastructure.

monument

AGAIN: She may have had a point if she was pitting it against the idea of the WRC. But she was pitting central and the Greater Dublin Area against in her words "a huge expanse of land" that is West (county) Cork.

Schuhart

monument wrote: »

AGAIN: She may have had a point if she was pitting it against the idea of the WRC. But she was pitting central and the Greater Dublin Area against in her words "a huge expanse of land" that is West (county) Cork.

At the risk of making an unnecessary post, you are making exactly the point on my mind. The T21 rail plan largely hasn't happened yet. Yet, in sections of the public imagination, its almost as if it was. Dublin is especially underserved compared to equivalent European cities. Yet, exactly as you say, Dublin is the whipping boy of her letter. Its as if the WRC didn't exist, and as if the existing Limerick Ennis service wasn't (surely) the most expensive public transport mode in the country in terms of costs vs bums on seats.

Why doesn't she address the real issue? Does she even know it exists?

dereko1969

invincibleirish wrote: »

The West did **** all for years planning wise but used its political clout and got €800m to reopen a useless line devoid of any planning or strategy to make even a legitimate case to re-open a railway.

where are you getting €800m from? way off the mark

D.L.R.

Athenry is doing very well for itself these days.

A new rail line direct to Limerick, on top of a promised N-S motorway, right on its doorstep. Athenry has a population of about 3,000, yet is to become the major transport hub of the west, while Galway (pop 70,000) lies 10 miles off axis to the west.

The route, heading north from Limerick, veers northeast away from Galway. A straight line continuing north would actually be shorter and pass closer to Galway. I don't get it. Land value? Whats the logic of avoiding one of Ireland's major hubs just to connect with a small town? This goes for the WRC or Atlantic Mway.

These routes go right to the doorstep of Limerick and Cork cities, but not Galway.

dereko1969

D.L.R. wrote: »

I don't get it. Land value?

eh, you do get it, any idea how much it would cost to build a brand new rail-line over land that you do not own and that would have to be cpo'd?

well you'd probably end up nearer the mad figure of €800m mentioned above.

D.L.R.

dereko1969 wrote: »

eh, you do get it, any idea how much it would cost to build a brand new rail-line over land that you do not own and that would have to be cpo'd?

well you'd probably end up nearer the mad figure of €800m mentioned above.

sure, the rail line has been chosen for obvious (ie, cheap) reasons. but that still doesn't explain the similar routing of the N/M18.

Thats another thread though. :rolleyes:

Sponge Bob

dereko1969 wrote: »

where are you getting €800m from? way off the mark

Its about €100m for Ennis-Galway and some second hand railcars on top of that. The rest of the WRC, north of Athenry , has been abandoned .

Oh and no drivers , forgot that

D'Peoples Voice

Looks like the Western Rail corridor is still going ahead

phase 1 of the Western Rail Corridor from Ennis to Athenry

dowlingm

well, they have track laid so it would be criminal to simply ditch it - better to complete it and wait for the traffic numbers. Undoubtedly there will be some excuse if it comes in short - probably the failure to do Stage 2 to Tuam!

The cost of the railcars is essentially the cost of new ones, since IE is currently running at over 100% of capacity (i.e. not allowing the numbers of spares a normal operation would). There aren't DMUs parked up ready for this project. It will be interesting to see where the DMUs and drivers will be based (Ennis maybe?) and how much Ghost Training goes on.

spacetweek

D'Peoples Voice wrote: »

Looks like the Western Rail corridor is still going ahead

There's no concept of Ennis to Athenry "still going ahead" - it's supposed to open in January. That's only 3 months away. It isn't exactly a major win to describe it as still going ahead.

KC61

dowlingm wrote: »

well, they have track laid so it would be criminal to simply ditch it - better to complete it and wait for the traffic numbers. Undoubtedly there will be some excuse if it comes in short - probably the failure to do Stage 2 to Tuam!

The cost of the railcars is essentially the cost of new ones, since IE is currently running at over 100% of capacity (i.e. not allowing the numbers of spares a normal operation would). There aren't DMUs parked up ready for this project. It will be interesting to see where the DMUs and drivers will be based (Ennis maybe?) and how much Ghost Training goes on.

No one expected phase 1 of the WRC to be ditched, however it is phase 2 to Tuam and phase 3 to Claremorris that is in doubt.

The funding was already secured for phase 1 - services are due to start next April at a frequency of 5 trains per day initially to be increased to 7 trains per day.

However, phase 2 was never likely to start until 2010 with a completion date of 2011, so I wouldn't rule it out yet.

As for the railcars, no new railcars over those currently on order are required to deliver the services on the WRC.

The arrival of two 22000s on the Kerry-Mallow route, will displace the 4 2-car railcars currently operating there. These will then be moved to Limerick depot to operate local services there and services on the WRC, and probably the Manulla-Ballina shuttle.

Further roll outs of 22000 sets on Rosslare and Sligo routes will enable 4 2600 sets to move from Drogheda to Cork (being replaced by either 29000 or 2800 sets displaced by 22000s) thereby standardising fleets in Cork, Limerick, Portlaoise and Drogheda, which should create efficiencies in itself.

Run_to_da_hills

I suggest Iarnrod Eireann keep some of the few remaining 121 and 141 class locos and a couple of Mark 3's for this line in original 70ies trim and run this as a nostalgic tourist line. These GM locos were the most reliable that CIE ever had and would probably out live some of the new stuff they got in to replace them.

Sponge Bob

Where did they get the drivers ??

dowlingm

KC61 - I never had an objection to Tuam per se - it was more the demand from the WRC pushers that Tuam be started before we saw the results from Athenry-Ennis. I would be delighted to be proved wrong and see high load factors on that route without using single car 275x units.

Your outline of IE's likely cascade of trainsets makes sense (and hopefully will happen without some regional whingery about one place getting one type and another getting a different one). It seems to me however that IE seem to be always a bit behind in getting commissioning done while making their fleet planning on the basis of everything happening on the original plan, leaving fleets like the 29Ks very stretched to cover everything and short trains being run rather than face the embarrassment of cutting the timetable.

@runtodahills - the only reason to run Mk3s on that line would be hurling specials to Croke Park...

KC61

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Where did they get the drivers ??

As I understand it there are sufficient drivers (either there at present or in training) to cover the new services on the WRC and Midleton.

Remember that the WRC services will replace some of the existing Limerick-Ennis services, thereby the incremental driver resources to operate five Limerick-Galway return services is not that great.

Run_to_da_hills

dowlingm wrote: »

@runtodahills - the only reason to run Mk3s on that line would be hurling specials to Croke Park...

Or if the Pope came over to Knock again

KC61

dowlingm wrote: »

KC61 - I never had an objection to Tuam per se - it was more the demand from the WRC pushers that Tuam be started before we saw the results from Athenry-Ennis. I would be delighted to be proved wrong and see high load factors on that route without using single car 275x units.

Your outline of IE's likely cascade of trainsets makes sense (and hopefully will happen without some regional whingery about one place getting one type and another getting a different one). It seems to me however that IE seem to be always a bit behind in getting commissioning done while making their fleet planning on the basis of everything happening on the original plan, leaving fleets like the 29Ks very stretched to cover everything and short trains being run rather than face the embarrassment of cutting the timetable.

@runtodahills - the only reason to run Mk3s on that line would be hurling specials to Croke Park...

Sorry dowlingm - the comment re phases 1, 2 and 3 were aimed more at D'Peoples Voice.

As I say, I'd expect that the acid test for phase 2 will be next year's budget. IE's new works department will have enough to keep them busy until then with finishing the WRC, Midleton, starting work on Pace, the KRP and relaying the lines from Limerick to Ballybrophy and Limerick Junction to Rosslare.

Into the medium future, I'd expect the following allocations for commuter services:
2700s operating all regional services from Limerick to Limerick Junction/Waterford/Rosslare, Ballybrophy/Nenagh, Ballina shuttle and the WRC.
2600s operating all Mallow-Cork-Cobh/Midleton services
2800s operating commuter services on the Gorey and Northern routes
29000s operating on the Northern and Maynooth/Longford routes
22000s operating the Kildare route.

The issues start in 2010/2011 when Pace and the KRP come on stream - that's when extra stock will be needed over the existing resources.

dowlingm

the important thing is not to lose the head. We can't go into a phase of capital spend freeze because then the IE engineering departments will lose their people to other systems and will lose out on new blood coming through, as in the 80s. Let contractors if any run out the clock but keep the salaried guys busy so that if more money is freed up there is a relatively quick ramp-up.

Nostradamus

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I suggest Iarnrod Eireann keep some of the few remaining 121 and 141 class locos and a couple of Mark 3's for this line in original 70ies trim and run this as a nostalgic tourist line. These GM locos were the most reliable that CIE ever had and would probably out live some of the new stuff they got in to replace them.

I don't get your point? You make it sound as if the WRC is a public transport project in the first place.

IIMII

Ah nostalgia. Nostalgia that is for the days when there was money to do something with the railways. As far as I recall, the passage of the line doesn't pass through particularly picturesque countryside, unlike say the wicklow or Larne lines

The only thing I can think of is that Gort could be repackaged as some kind of Rio drawing on the cultural input of the towns 50% or so Brazillian population. Who work locally in the meat factories, rather than in Galway or Limerick cities btw

As a matter of interest would it be quicker getting to Croke park from Ennis via Kildare or Athlone?

serfboard

IIMII wrote: »

The only thing I can think of is that Gort could be repackaged as some kind of Rio drawing on the cultural input of the towns 50% or so Brazillian population. Who work locally in the meat factories, rather than in Galway or Limerick cities btw

Update for you. Duffy's, the meat factory that employed most of the brazilians has been closed since April 2007. AFAIK, the Gort brazilians now work all over County Galway doing various odd jobs.

And in a further update, Gort, surely one of the towns that would supposedly benefit most from the Phase 1 implementation, may not even have a stop on the line when it opens, at least until the dispute gets settled, so passenger numbers on the line will be even less than expected when it opens, giving a field day to WRC knockers.

glineli

serfboard wrote: »

Update for you. Duffy's, the meat factory that employed most of the brazilians has been closed since April 2007. AFAIK, the Gort brazilians now work all over County Galway doing various odd jobs.

And in a further update, Gort, surely one of the towns that would supposedly benefit most from the Phase 1 implementation, may not even have a stop on the line when it opens, at least until the dispute gets settled, so passenger numbers on the line will be even less than expected when it opens, giving a field day to WRC knockers.

Looks like we need a stop in Crusheen then!!!

dowlingm

except what that stretch of the WRC needs is *fewer stops* in order to compete effectively with the bus...