Western Rail Corridor

glineli

dowlingm wrote: »

except what that stretch of the WRC needs is *fewer stops* in order to compete effectively with the bus...

When IE are getting a free car park and a free platform, i think they should look at maybe 2 trains a day stopping there, not every train. I think if Ardrahan gets a stop, Crusheen should. Really, will people in that area drive into ennis or gort to get the train, i doubt it.
ennis to gort, 20 miles, no stops in between
gort to athenry, 18 miles, 2 stops.

Doesnt make much sense to me.

Judgement Day

Nostradamus wrote: »

I don't get your point? You make it sound as if the WRC is a public transport project in the first place.

You're such an old cynic...I thought that was my department. How about re-establishing Westrail and getting old No.90 back on loan from Downpatrick? 90 plus one bogie should be just about adequate for any traffic offering between Ennis and Athenry. If the traffic fails to materialise 90 could always be rebuilt in its original form i.e.with a carriage portion!

dowlingm

glineli wrote: »

When IE are getting a free car park and a free platform, i think they should look at maybe 2 trains a day stopping there, not every train. I think if Ardrahan gets a stop, Crusheen should.

http://beyond2020.cso.ie/Census/TableViewer/tableView.aspx?ReportId=1760
But Ardrahan SHOULDN'T get a stop (and neither should Craughwell). It should be Limerick, Sixmilebridge, Ennis, Gort, Athenry, Oranmore, Galway the end.

Crusheen, the CSO says had 377 people in 2006 and 0 in 2002! None of the towns listed above have less than 1600, Athenry and Oranmore are north of 3,000.

glineli

dowlingm wrote: »

http://beyond2020.cso.ie/Census/TableViewer/tableView.aspx?ReportId=1760
But Ardrahan SHOULDN'T get a stop (and neither should Craughwell). It should be Limerick, Sixmilebridge, Ennis, Gort, Athenry, Oranmore, Galway the end.

Crusheen, the CSO says had 377 people in 2006 and 0 in 2002! None of the towns listed above have less than 1600, Athenry and Oranmore are north of 3,000.

I think half the reason why Crusheen is looking for a stop is because Ardrahan is getting one. Those stops make a lot more sense, the fewer the stops the better!!!

KC61

I don't think that that the plan is for all trains to serve Ardrahan or Craughwell. The only trains that should stop at Ardrahan and Craughwell are the commuter services and the rest of the trains would serve Ennis and Gort only.

Judgement Day

Given that the WRC is going to be served by the awful commuter railcars and will not be a high speed line I fail to see why so many of you are hung up on the number of stops. Railcar development was brought about by the need to cut costs and when introduced on the CDR and GNRI efforts were made to encourage traffic wherever possible. Wooden steps were even carried on the railcars to allow passengers disembark at level crossings where there were no platforms. And before anybody starts throwing health and safety concerns about it has more to do with a commercial attitude and the total lack of it within CIE/IE. Both the CDR and GNR did their utmost to get in business from every possible source. The contrast between their operations and those of CIE/IE could not be further apart. The total lack of capacity for Fastrack parcels being the most obvious. Build a railway to the highest spec at taxpayers expense - CWR, colour light signalling etc and then provide the most basic, uncomfortable service possible - that's the CIE/IE way!!

Nostradamus

KC61 wrote: »

The only trains that should stop at Ardrahan and Craughwell are the commuter services and the rest of the trains would serve Ennis and Gort only.

Just step back for a second and carefully examine what you are saying. Are you really telling me that a couple of pissant vilages have more commuter potential than two decent sized towns?

Is there anything. Anything one single element of logic behind the WRC, its reconstruction, its planned services.

I am not knocking the poster above. But it just goes to ilustrate what a shamboilic piece of tragic comedy the so called Western Rail Corridor is. None of it makes any sense on any level. In terms of public transport for the West it is a huge retrograde farce.

There is no reason at all why Ardrahan and Craughwell should of ever been reopened for any kind of rail service.

Did I mention that most of the commuter services out of Nenagh are carrying as little as 6 passengers a service. Should be amazing to see how well the metropoli of Ardrahan and Craughwell load.

KC61

Nostradamus wrote: »

Just step back for a second and carefully examine what you are saying. Are you really telling me that a couple of pissant vilages have more commuter potential than two decent sized towns?

Is there anything. Anything one single element of logic behind the WRC, its reconstruction, its planned services.

I am not knocking the poster above. But it just goes to ilustrate what a shamboilic piece of tragic comedy the so called Western Rail Corridor is. None of it makes any sense on any level. In terms of public transport for the West it is a huge retrograde farce.

There is no reason at all why Ardrahan and Craughwell should of ever been reopened for any kind of rail service.

Did I mention that most of the commuter services out of Nenagh are carrying as little as 6 passengers a service. Should be amazing to see how well the metropoli of Ardrahan and Craughwell load.

No knocking taken!

I'm not sure if you're misinterpreting what I said. I'm certainly not suggesting that Ardrahan or Craughwell have more potential than Ennis or Gort. What I meant was that the commuter service would serve all stations on the route, while the remainder of the trains would stop at all stations except Ardrahan and Craughwell.

I suppose that the point I was trying to make is that given that they have indeed been built (and I'm not going to get into the debate of whether they should or should not have been), looking at them from an operational perspective I would still only envisage them being used for morning commuter service into Galway and the evening return. I certainly think it would be rather pointless having every train stopping at them as I don't think that there would be a demand for them.

As for Nenagh, it is hampered by the ongoing lengthy 25mph restriction (recently extended!!) - when that is lifted next year (which I understand IÉ have committed to), the journey time should accelerate by 15 minutes which should make the service far more attractive to commuters. It might also enable more trains to operate, thereby increasing choice - maybe a few later services. The study linked to above would suggest a reasonable number would consider using the service, but I'd agree that a 50 minute journey time is just not attractive.

dowlingm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Railcar development was brought about by the need to cut costs and when introduced on the CDR and GNRI efforts were made to encourage traffic wherever possible. Wooden steps were even carried on the railcars to allow passengers disembark at level crossings where there were no platforms. And before anybody starts throwing health and safety concerns about it has more to do with a commercial attitude and the total lack of it within CIE/IE. Both the CDR and GNR did their utmost to get in business from every possible source.

Judgement day -please don't bring up days gone by. The fact is that the RSC and a culture of accessibility have changed the landscape of rail transport, and for the most part for the better. I'm the first to lash Information Minister Barry Kenny and his pals when there's cause but the fact is that minimum standards must be adhered to or IE will be cleaned out in the courts at the first incident. They are only given so much capital spend and that means the track and signals have to prioritised, especially given that it's a single line - we don't want incidents like that in California recently.

The one saving grace for Ardrahan and Craughwell is the N18 - Woodlawn and Attymon have a railway and no road which will mean no proper development ever. However, accepting that means still promoting sprawl and ribbon development rather than concentrating on nodes with urban development potential like Gort.

dowlingm

I think the thing that really bugs people about the WRC is that at no point has it really had to justify itself beyond the damningly faint praise of McCann. In most systems, in fact in much of the Irish system, there is a quid pro quo to getting a station.

In Ireland, either the neighbouring station or bus service is overrun, a developer pays to build it, or the local authority chips in from development levies. Even then, projects involving populated localities face incredible delays in getting stations (Navan, Blarney, Blackpool, Midleton) or appropriate levels of service (Wicklow).

In France, municipalities pay for TGV stops where otherwise they wouldn't get one because they see it as an investment which will pay off once new businesses are attracted (I think Nancy was one of those - there was an article in the New York Times on it IIRC).

The WRC is basically a no-lose proposition for Galway and Clare - they make no investment, pay no subsidy, suffer no losses.

For it to follow a different development model from Ennis-Limerick, which was run non-stop until Sixmilebridge had more houses built, is hard to fathom. At the WRC's way of thinking, Cratloe and Clarecastle and a few other places should have stops too. Perhaps the extra stops don't add that much time, but they certainly add diesel (no regenerative braking remember).

The energy required to accelerate back to normal cruising speed should be repaid in passengers boarding and the operating cost of the halt - let's even neglect the capex in providing the TVMs and platforms. I am unconvinced the stops between Gort and Athenry will do even that. I hope I'm wrong because passengers packed into infrequent railcars elsewhere will bear the brunt if I'm not.

Victor

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0102/1230842349128.html

Claims for western rail link 'speculative'
GORDON DEEGAN

A GOVERNMENT-commissioned study has found that claims made for the reopening of the first phase of the Western Rail Corridor in an earlier report "are largely speculative".

Work is continuing on restoring the €106 million Ennis-Athenry line that will connect services between Limerick and Galway cities. The rail line is due to reopen to passenger traffic next June after a gap of 33 years.

In an appraisal of five separate reports that led the Government to sanction the reopening of the first phase of the line, Steer Davies Gleave (SDG) questions many of the assumptions made on the reopening of the line.

In the report, released under the Freedom of Information (FoI) Act, by the Department of Transport, the SDG report states: "On the face of it, the cost-benefit analysis would suggest that the scheme is not good value for money and should not have gone ahead. "Our understanding is that it has been decided to embark on this project despite the poor economic case due to its expected role in achieving goals related to national and regional development."

The SDG report concludes: "This is highlighted in the McCann report from May 2005, which stated that with projects of this nature demand is very difficult to quantify" and suggests that "infrastructure such as the restoration of the Western Rail Corridor could have a major impact on the future development of the West".

The McCann report was given to the then minister for transport, Martin Cullen, by the chairman of the expert working group on the Western Rail Corridor, Pat McCann. The Government gave the project the go-ahead with the knowledge that the service would lose €2.4 million each year and need a subvention of a similar amount to cover losses.

The project involves the relaying of 36 miles of track and station and platform construction - the last freight trains travelled on the route in 2000.

The project was also given a net present value (NPV) of €137 million, and consultants stated that even if there was a doubling in the anticipated number of passengers, the project would still not be commercially viable.

In its evaluation of the reports that resulted in the Government giving the project the go-ahead, the SDG report found that the assumptions made in relation to travel time saved per trip by train were "assumptions not based on clear methodology" and that different assumptions on growth of the service appeared in two versions of the report giving the project the go-ahead.

However, in a written response to the consultants, Iarnród Éireann's manager of strategic and business planning, Michael Reidy, said the "justification for the Ennis-Athenry line was always going to be on regional development grounds in terms of its contribution to both regional and commuter rail access".

Mr Reidy pointed out that the phased reopening of the Western Rail Corridor was included in Transport 21 and the justification was underpinned by the McCann report.

In a second letter, Mr Reidy said that SDG had failed to grasp the uniqueness of the Ennis-Athenry project and the project could never be justified on the basis of a simple socio-economic analysis no matter what level of sensitivity tests were undertaken.

"The justification for the project is on regional development grounds, and SDG recommendations should reflect this," Mr Reidy said.

"The notion of considering alternative options shows a clear lack of understanding of the nature of the project."

Chris_533976

Can of worms

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Cork - Galway is one of Bus Eireanns biggest routes. If CIE do a Cork - Galway rail service using the WRC then they WILL get a reasonable amount of people on it.

Whats going to happen is that this potential pool of passengers will continue to use the bus. Why? Because you'll have to travel Galway - Limerick, switch trains and do Limerick - Limerick Junction, then switch trains and do Limerick Junction - Cork. And will those services line up timewise? Doubt it.

This part of the WRC has a little bit of potential, but noone in CIE will see that, I guarantee.

Victor

I suspect services will be Limerick Junction-Galway, but Cork-Limerick Junction-Galway may still be better timewise.

Judgement Day

There's a surprise then. Bring in yet another firm of UK consultants to tell us what the dogs in the street know - the WRC is a total waste of money! Just wait until it becomes operational and the service has to be replaced by a bus. The much trumpeted re-routing to the WRC of the Norfolk Line freight trains to Ballina will last just as long as the factory - anyone like to give odds on how long that will be?:mad:

corktina

too true and dont forget the competing bus service cork-galway has recently folded as a direct result of it being uneconomic without the fuel subsidy. If a percentage of passengers (a finite total) take the train from Cork to galway, how long before BE's service is uneconomic ? (even if if IS economic now)

Chris_533976

Citylink folded because they didnt advertise. they had about 5 or 6 people per bus. Their service was much better and quicker, but it was their own fault.

Cork - Galway on BE will never fold. I have never been on that bus where it isnt full. AFAIK its their most profitable service. A competing rail link would be great though, as its PAINFUL to have to go to Shannon Airport every time.

corktina

Citylink packed it in because the Govt removed the Diesel PSV rebate scheme.

dowlingm

Nothing the Booz Allen Hamilton Strategic Rail Review didn't tell them (literally - the word "Athenry" does not appear and Mullingar-Athlone does) before a shovel hit the ground. Even McCann damned it with faint praise. I suspect a Weshterner will be along any second to tell us all it's lies, Cromwellite lies...

Nostradamus

Here are some photos of the new station at Ardrahan. Look at the work being undertaken and nothing either side of the station except fields. Its bad enough that Woodlawn has a service, at least that an old station - but this is 21st Century High-End Rail Infrastruture for non-existent commuters.

Welcome to Ballymagash Nationalism:






Same story at Craughwell:



Why are these stations being built at all. Because they were there on the old rail maps. No other reason.

Nostradamus

dowlingm wrote: »

I suspect a Weshterner will be along any second to tell us all it's lies, Cromwellite lies...

or Nigel the "Irish Railway Campainger" from Bury-Saint-Edmonds.

parsi

How many houses are there if you look southwards back towards the village of Ardrahan ?

(bearing in mind that you leave the metroplis of Ardrahan before you reach the station -if you're travelling from Ennsi > Galway )

amacachi

Nostradamus wrote: »

Why are these stations being built at all. Because they were there on the old rail maps. No other reason.

Well why would you want stations built in particular places? Logic and large commuting populations nearby? Don't be so silly!

Judgement Day

Don't forget that the people behind rebuilding the WRC are the same morons (Irish Govt./CIE) that ran the original line into the ground so why would you expect there to be any sense behind its reopening. Incidentally, the train spotters on the IRN website think the the reopening of the WRC is really exciting, especially since they can photograph locos and rail trains in new locations!:D

corktina

OH well, it will be their children paying for it for ever more (thats if they have any of course:D)

Cian R

how many stations will be on the Western Rail Corridor?

Nostradamus

Judgement Day wrote: »

Incidentally, the train spotters on the IRN website think the the reopening of the WRC is really exciting, especially since they can photograph locos and rail trains in new locations!:D

"Social Justice" old bean!

Tableman

heard a guy from some group talking about this (WRC) on Galway bay FM a few days ago. He was terrible bullish about it altogether saying how it would absolutely be built and that it would not be affected by the cutbacks

galwayrush

Until such time as your local FF TD/Councillor or general FF hack owns the land along the track that might be developed, it ain't going to happen.:rolleyes: Common sense or Budgetary concerns are merely an excuse.

DWCommuter

And remember that this chronic waste of money on the WRC (as first publicised by yours truly and T. Sheridan of the old P11) WILL and you better believe it, have a negative impact on more important services on the network. (Just as we said it would amid the rabied attacks from the westies in early 2004.)

Remember that Tom? We were accused of having a Dublin 4 mentallity. Jaysus, I can't even afford to have a pint in D4 let alone live there.:D

IE is already shifting higher losses and this monument to gombeenism is about to dump more on it. Plans to increase inter city frequencies have been cut and we are building this joke as we do it! Meanwhile the so called management in CIE just stumble blindly about the place devoid of any private sector balls and intellect.

Stroke Politics

galwayrush wrote: »

Until such time as your local FF TD/Councillor or general FF hack owns the land along the track that might be developed, it ain't going to happen.:rolleyes: Common sense or Budgetary concerns are merely an excuse.

The Stroke Fahy is from Ardrahan, isn't he?