Western Rail Corridor

IIMII

dowlingm wrote: »

Don't suppose anyone's got the ability to fire some clips on youtube for the expats?

I don't. But a tip for anyone trying to get around the RTÉ 'Ireland Only' gig is to get a 3 Datacard - I used my Irish 3 Datacard on my laptop to watch the International Rules whilst in foreign climes a few months ago. Wasn't a perfect live picture, but the replay version was fine..

KevR

Sorry if this has already been mentioned but City Link are re-introducing Galway-Limerick-Cork-Cork Airport Express services.

According to their timetable Galway-Limerick will take 1hr 30mins and it will take 3hrs 15mins to get from Galway to Cork. Bus Eireann's Galway-Limerick service takes 2hrs 15mins and Galway-Cork takes 4hrs 20 mins! :eek:

Think I remember reading that Galway-Limerick by train will take 1hr 45mins approx. And the train will probably be more expensive and possibly not even as frequent..

I very much prefer travelling by train (rather than by bus) but would never pay more for train which takes longer.

Also, those City Link times will improve further when the M18 from Crusheen-Gort opens (and further improve when the Gort-Athenry section opens). Even if the buses don't use the new DC/Motorway they will benefit from a lot less traffic on the old N18.

City Link could be onto a winner IMO.

http://www.citylink.ie/timetable-galw2cork.htm

T Corolla

I agree with you 100% I myself would travel by train if it was shorter and approximetly the same price. I heard 1h 50 mins from limerick to galway by train an average speed of between 40 to 50 mph. If citylink can do it on a busy N18 I hope people will use their common sence and go on the bus and force irish rail to improve their service Its all about value for money these days.

jlang

T Corolla wrote: »

I agree with you 100% I myself would travel by train if it was shorter and approximetly the same price. I heard 1h 50 mins from limerick to galway by train an average speed of between 40 to 50 mph. If citylink can do it on a busy N18 I hope people will use their common sence and go on the bus and force irish rail to improve their service Its all about value for money these days.

The problem is that Irish Rail probably won't be able to improve the service to compete on time or price because of infrastructural reasons (routing, line quality, etc). I suspect there won't be support for even more cost-ineffective investment to address the issues and they will continue to run a severely loss making service until someone puts it out of it's misery (again). Unfortunately, the value for money argument leads to not reopening the train line at all and putting the money into road improvements and utilising it with a fast and regular express bus fleet.

Chris_533976

KevR wrote: »

Sorry if this has already been mentioned but City Link are re-introducing Galway-Limerick-Cork-Cork Airport Express services.

According to their timetable Galway-Limerick will take 1hr 30mins and it will take 3hrs 15mins to get from Galway to Cork. Bus Eireann's Galway-Limerick service takes 2hrs 15mins and Galway-Cork takes 4hrs 20 mins! :eek:

Think I remember reading that Galway-Limerick by train will take 1hr 45mins approx. And the train will probably be more expensive and possibly not even as frequent..

I very much prefer travelling by train (rather than by bus) but would never pay more for train which takes longer.

Also, those City Link times will improve further when the M18 from Crusheen-Gort opens (and further improve when the Gort-Athenry section opens). Even if the buses don't use the new DC/Motorway they will benefit from a lot less traffic on the old N18.

City Link could be onto a winner IMO.

http://www.citylink.ie/timetable-galw2cork.htm

If Citylink do absolutely no advertising like they did last time then these buses will be borderline empty all day.

KevR

Chris_533976 wrote: »

If Citylink do absolutely no advertising like they did last time then these buses will be borderline empty all day.

They have loads of flyers up on notice boards around the NUIG campus. I'll keep an eye out for advertising of the route elsewhere in Galway.

corktina

this isnt a surprise, I noticed activity around their office in Cork last week and thought something was afoot (or 60cm:)

Stupido

incredible that they are putting in brand new infrastructre....and it is going to limit the line speeds of the trains so that they are uncompetitive to buses????


someone in IE is brain dead!

paulm17781

Stupido wrote: »

incredible that they are putting in brand new infrastructre....and it is going to limit the line speeds of the trains so that they are uncompetitive to buses????


someone in IE is brain dead!

No, the whole project is brain dead. It's not brand new infrastructure, it's relaying an old windy, curvy line that is by no means up to modern day standards. This is why I and many others here and on other forums have said it is a waste, it can't compete with road times. The money could have been used for a real project instead of wasting it here.

glineli

paulm17781 wrote: »

No, the whole project is brain dead. It's not brand new infrastructure, it's relaying an old windy, curvy line that is by no means up to modern day standards. This is why I and many others here and on other forums have said it is a waste, it can't compete with road times. The money could have been used for a real project instead of wasting it here.

I tend to agree. This money could have been used for the Gort to Oranmore section of the N18, therefore providing a DC from Galway to Limerick. IMO, that would have been money better spent

dowlingm

Stupido wrote: »

incredible that they are putting in brand new infrastructre....and it is going to limit the line speeds of the trains so that they are uncompetitive to buses????

someone in IE is brain dead!

Actually, not true at all. Remember, IE disconnected Athenry-Ennis and had no intention of going there until the politicians said do it, but spend the minimum. This is what you get when that happens.

Stupido

Shame we have a rail company who are 'forced' to develop the network by others.

IE trumpet the Ennis link as a sucessful extension of services yet I remember it was political pressure that forced them to do this. They are dragged kicking and screaming, then when it is a success they stick out their chests and say 'good on us'!

Remember the IE economic report done for the Navan rail line using very old data???

The WRC would be sucessful (or more sucessful) if they did it properly. But that won't happen until demand forces them to re-do the whole project again and get the desired speeds etc!

Saying there is no demand for services on a line that only has 2 trains each way a day is also stupid. Put the services in and then make the judgement if there is demand or not!


If DB ran the railways here it would be a very different story methinks...

paulm17781

Stupido wrote: »

Put the services in and then make the judgement if there is demand or not!

Doing this is the problem. Every single report of the WRC says it's not viable. Political pressure and vote grabbing is why it's being done. When it fails it'll be used and an "I told you so." for all future rail development here.

Zoney

paulm:

Are you sure about that? Didn't the last report suggest that Ennis-Athenry was viable, Tuam-Athenry unlikely to be until medium-term at least, and Tuam-Sligo unlikely ever to be (but still worth protecting the corridor in case it's needed ever?)

People keep talking as if opening Ennis-Athenry (providing more Ennis-Dublin services, Ennis-Galway and Limerick-Galway intercity that will be better than BÉ) is some grandiose mad scheme going ahead to provide railway from Donegal to Cork!

Stupido

It is the economic viability reports that are the problem.

They have too narrow terms of reference, and don't take in wider economic implications.

Arguements rage over what should be factored in or out of these reports. The problem is often (esp. in the case of transport infrastructure) these are the difference of making a project viabile or not!

Schuhart

Zoney wrote: »

People keep talking as if opening Ennis-Athenry (providing more Ennis-Dublin services, Ennis-Galway and Limerick-Galway intercity that will be better than BÉ) is some grandiose mad scheme going ahead to provide railway from Donegal to Cork!

And the reason is because what keeps getting proposed is a mad scheme to provide railway from Donegal to Cork. You might have missed the recent Ecoeye programme. But that's exactly what was laid out. If you want to know how that programme went, just check back a couple of pages on this thread. From about post number 1517.

Plus, have we ever actually seen the running costs of Ennis-Limerick to see how much this 'tremendous success' is costing us?

Schuhart

Stupido wrote: »

It is the economic viability reports that are the problem.

They have too narrow terms of reference, and don't take in wider economic implications.

Arguements rage over what should be factored in or out of these reports. The problem is often (esp. in the case of transport infrastructure) these are the difference of making a project viabile or not!

Yes in general, but this is not relevant to the case of the WRC where the McCann report just lamely asserts that its impossible to predict how many folk will use it.

McCann, IIRC, is a hotelier. Do you think he'd have problems predicting how many customers he'd get if he built a hotel in New York, as against building one in Ardrahan?

Zoney

Schuhart wrote: »

And the reason is because what keeps getting proposed is a mad scheme to provide railway from Donegal to Cork. You might have missed the recent Ecoeye programme. But that's exactly what was laid out. If you want to know how that programme went, just check back a couple of pages on this thread. From about post number 1517.

And why exactly is anyone taking notice of such extreme positions? It's not as if it influences the politicians, much less those holding the purse-strings. The only reason I can think that it made national television is because people like tabloid-ish hysteria, it was probably knowingly offered as provoking fodder for the Dublin crowd.

It's not good enough to use such an agenda as a basis to decry the reopening of Ennis-Athenry. To do so is akin to being a climate change denialist merely because of the extremism of the enviro-nuts who offer it as gospel rather than a (thus far) plausible theory.

IIMII

No, Duncan Stewart is serious about it.. I heard him speaking about it, he is a genuine big fan of the line ahead of all other projects.. He believes that the WRC offers the chance to do things 'right' as the WRC hasn't yet been undermined by motorways (his opinion)..

Schuhart

Zoney wrote: »

And why exactly is anyone taking notice of such extreme positions?

Because not only is it on national television without any critical balance whatsoever, not only has it the support of Duncan Stewart (as IIMII is testifying), but the idea of extending the line far beyond Athenry has the support of

over 100,000 citizens' signatures; 12 Western County and City Development Boards; all west coast local authorities; 3 regional authorities; The Council for the West; Shannon Development; the Western Development Commission; The Border Midlands and West Regional Assembly; National University of Ireland Galway, 3,377 Community and Voluntary organizations, members of the Community and Voluntary Forum along the West coast; all the Dáil represented political parties; all west coast Chambers of Commerce; ICTU in the West; IFA; IDA; Ireland West Tourism, Local Development Agencies.

Do you get the picture? We take notice of this 'extreme' position because it has gained so much uncritical acceptance.

Zoney wrote: »

It's not good enough to use such an agenda as a basis to decry the reopening of Ennis-Athenry. To do so is akin to being a climate change denialist merely because of the extremism of the enviro-nuts who offer it as gospel rather than a (thus far) plausible theory.

We can distinguish between two things. There's what you term the 'extreme' position, which has uncritical acceptance of many.

Then there's Ennis - Athenry. With it, we've merely the normal observations (already made many times on this thread) that no sound case has been made for this investment, yet it is being built.

The only defence for this project is 'it doesn't cost an awful lot compared to the whole of Transport 21'. Indeed, but piling up €1 million and setting fire to it would also not cost an awful lot compared to the whole of Transport 21, and the CO2 emissions from burning all that money would probably add less to our carbon footprint that running largely empty diesel railcars between Ennis and Athenry.

Now, you'll know all those points so there's no point in repeating them. I think the main point I'm making is that (as you know) there's a reasonable case to be made that re-instated the windy old WRC route to Athenry achieves approximately nothing. That case exists independently of the fact that the case for a line from Cork to Donegal is actually made by folk who get far more of a hearing from media and political decision makers than the voices of reason.

We're not making the 'extremists' up. Watch the fecking programme and then tell me that the woman from the Western Development Commission is on a mission to undermine sensible regional development advocacy at the behest of the D4 crowd.

Cool Mo D

Schuhart wrote: »

Because not only is it on national television without any critical balance whatsoever, not only has it the support of Duncan Stewart (as IIMII is testifying), but the idea of extending the line far beyond Athenry has the support ofDo you get the picture? We take notice of this 'extreme' position because it has gained so much uncritical acceptance.We can distinguish between two things. There's what you term the 'extreme' position, which has uncritical acceptance of many.

Then there's Ennis - Athenry. With it, we've merely the normal observations (already made many times on this thread) that no sound case has been made for this investment, yet it is being made.

The only defence for this project is 'it doesn't cost an awful lot compared to the whole of Transport 21'. Indeed, but piling up €1 million and setting fire to it would also not cost an awful lot compared to the whole of Transport 21, and the CO2 emissions from burning all that money would probably add less to our carbon footprint that running largely empty diesel railcars between Ennis and Athenry.

Now, you'll know all those points so there's no point in repeating them. I think the main point I'm making is that (as you know) there's a reasonable case to be made that re-instated the windy old WRC route to Athenry achieves approximately nothing. That case exists independently of the fact that the case for a line from Cork to Donegal is actually made by folk who get far more of a hearing from media and political decision makers than the voices of reason.

We're not making the 'extremists' up. Watch the fecking programme and then tell me that the woman from the Western Development Commission is on a mission to undermine sensible regional development advocacy at the behest of the D4 crowd.

I don't really understand how this line will be particularly empty - at the moment Ennis to Limerick gets about 700 passengers today - which is pretty good when you consider that there are only 7 2-carriage services a day. It is certainly a lot better than the like of Limerick-Waterford, and Ballybrophy-Limerick. I am not under any illusion that it will meet it's running costs, but it's hardly a particularly big money sink. And it's quite clear that the rest of the line will never be built.

Schuhart

Cool Mo D wrote: »

I don't really understand how this line will be particularly empty - at the moment Ennis to Limerick gets about 700 passengers today - which is pretty good when you consider that there are only 7 2-carriage services a day. It is certainly a lot better than the like of Limerick-Waterford, and Ballybrophy-Limerick. I am not under any illusion that it will meet it's running costs, but it's hardly a particularly big money sink. And it's quite clear that the rest of the line will never be built.

The ground has been gone over many times in the past 1500 posts. You’ll find a sequence starting here that deals with it. To anticipate a common mistake, bear in mind that its not even just the pure journey time of the rail journey. It’s the fact of needing to get to the rail station by the scheduled time. Also of relevance is the material the Clare People were able to get out of the Department of Transport under Freedom of Information rules

Also, rail is quite an expensive way to be moving a few hundred people a day. The assessment made is that the WRC would involve an annual subvention of €10 million a year to move 750 people a day. Lets call that 300,000 passengers per year. To put that in perspective, Bus Atha Cliath gets an annual subvention of €80 million, for which it moves about 148 million passengers. That means every journey on the WRC would be subsidised to the tune of €33, as against the average journey on Bus Atha Cliath being subsidised to the tune of 55 cent.

Yes, this is a crude measure. Yes, the estimate relates to the full WRC and not just Ennis Athenry. Yes, we're comparing rail to bus. But hopefully you'll appreciate that the sums of money involved are not minor compared to other public transport services in Ireland - either in absolute terms, or per head.

Zoney

Schuhart wrote: »

We're not making the 'extremists' up. Watch the fecking programme and then tell me that the woman from the Western Development Commission is on a mission to undermine sensible regional development advocacy at the behest of the D4 crowd.

I'm not suggesting that anyone is making the extremists up. I am more asking the motivation for seeking them out and giving them national air time?

dowlingm

Ennis to Limerick doesn't have 700 passengers/day. There might be 700 people on the train, but that doesn't mean they're all going to Limerick, but some points further on like Cork or Dublin.

In any case, the difference between rail and road mileages is nowhere near as significant as the deviation via Athenry adds (about 45% extra distance) to Gort-Galway commuters. From Ardrahan, the difference is over 60%, at 26km by the N18 and about 42km by rail (I don't have a rail atlas so I'm approximating using parallel roads).

It's my sincere belief that PaleRail is the optimal use of Ennis-Athenry, matching the arrival of trains into Athenry with the arrival of Galway-Dublin service.

Carawaystick

Cool Mo D wrote: »

I don't really understand how this line will be particularly empty - at the moment Ennis to Limerick gets about 700 passengers today - which is pretty good when you consider that there are only 7 2-carriage services a day. ... I am not under any illusion that it will meet it's running costs, but it's hardly a particularly big money sink. And it's quite clear that the rest of the line will never be built.

The Northern Line from Drogheda between the hours of 6:58 and 7:56 leaving Rush and Lusk station probably carries 4000 passengers in less than an hour. there's probably 700 passengers on the front half of the train at 7:56.
There is a good dual carriageway from Limerick to Ennis. Any decent coach service should be able to provide a quicker service between these two places compared to the train.

There will be a good dual carriageway from Ennis to North of Gort, which will enable decent coach services to provide a Galway Limerick service faster than the train which will have to divert past Athenry, wait for the driver to change ends and amble into Galway. This disregards any private motorists who will be able to travel faster than coaches and take even less time to do the same journey.

Also a good quality road allows private coach operators to compete and offer services when they think there will be a demand, not oly when Irish rail bother them selves or it doesn't rain too much and the line is closed for over a month - but sher it'd never rain too much in Ireland so that must have been a freak.

Cool Mo D

Carawaystick wrote: »

The Northern Line from Drogheda between the hours of 6:58 and 7:56 leaving Rush and Lusk station probably carries 4000 passengers in less than an hour. there's probably 700 passengers on the front half of the train at 7:56.
There is a good dual carriageway from Limerick to Ennis. Any decent coach service should be able to provide a quicker service between these two places compared to the train.

There will be a good dual carriageway from Ennis to North of Gort, which will enable decent coach services to provide a Galway Limerick service faster than the train which will have to divert past Athenry, wait for the driver to change ends and amble into Galway. This disregards any private motorists who will be able to travel faster than coaches and take even less time to do the same journey.

Also a good quality road allows private coach operators to compete and offer services when they think there will be a demand, not oly when Irish rail bother them selves or it doesn't rain too much and the line is closed for over a month - but sher it'd never rain too much in Ireland so that must have been a freak.

It can take over an hour to get into Limerick from Ennis at peak times, which explains some of the usage of the train - but most of the rail passengers from Ennis are continuing to Dublin.
And a good coach service will never attract the same passenger numbers as a train - it may be faster on journey time, but you'll never be able to stretch your legs, or buy a drink, or have the same legroom and a table as on a train.

Of course the vast bulk of rail investment should be in places where there is heavy usage, or the possibility of heavy usage, which means commuter rail in Dublin especially, and in Cork, and maybe improvements around Limerick and Galway.

I certainly don't think that this line is a priority - what I'm saying is that this line can expect to be a bit busier than many that Irish Rail are currently running. If we are going to subsidise rural lines at all, this line has as good a case as many of them, and serves at least a theoretically more important route. Surely it would be better to subsidise this line then say Waterford to Rosslare, or Ballybrophy to Limerick. Are the people who want this line cancelled arguing for their closure too?
I think running unprofitable rail lines may be politically necessary in order to prevent rural politicians weighing in against future rail lines where they're really needed.

Tadhg17

Carawaystick wrote: »

There is a good dual carriageway from Limerick to Ennis. Any decent coach service should be able to provide a quicker service between these two places compared to the train.

There will be a good dual carriageway from Ennis to North of Gort, which will enable decent coach services to provide a Galway Limerick service faster than the train which will have to divert past Athenry, wait for the driver to change ends and amble into Galway. This disregards any private motorists who will be able to travel faster than coaches and take even less time to do the same journey.

Also a good quality road allows private coach operators to compete and offer services when they think there will be a demand, not oly when Irish rail bother them selves or it doesn't rain too much and the line is closed for over a month - but sher it'd never rain too much in Ireland so that must have been a freak.

Citylink will be doing Galway-Limerick in 90 mins(though not stopping in Ennis) and this could become even less when the new bus lane is done from the Coonagh roundabout into the Dock Road.
http://www.citylink.ie/timetable-galw2cork.htm

Judgement Day

As I pointed out elsewhere on these Boards, the notorious McKinsey & Co. report on CIE of 1972 (?) pointed out that the greatest losses occur on the busiest lines. So just because a line is going to lose money is not a reason for not reopening (WRC, Cobh Jn/Midleton) or retaining it (Limerick/Ballybrophy, Limerick Jn/Rosslare Harbour). However, to justify the reopening/retention of a line the maximum use must be made of it and CIE/IE are incapable of the quantum leap of imagination needed to do this. The operation of any new lines, reopened lines should be put out to tender and CIE/IE left to look after track maintenance. I am not sure of the exact mechanics of this suggestion but CIE's record would not inspire confidence and letting them operate new services will be a disaster!

Tadhg17

glineli wrote: »

I tend to agree. This money could have been used for the Gort to Oranmore section of the N18, therefore providing a DC from Galway to Limerick. IMO, that would have been money better spent

Ya build a better road from Gort to Oranmore so people can get to a traffic jam in Galway City quicker:rolleyes: They have to start improving public transport in Galway and stop the suburban sprawl on the west side of the city.

The WRC north of Athenry is a joke and should not be built and I would be for re-opening Ennis-Athenry provided it was done properly(which it is not). The money for Ennis-Athenry should have been spent on double-tracking the Galway-Athenry railway line and creating a Galway surburban rail service with stops at Renmore/GMIT, Oranmore and Athenry. Galway CC should have been looking at high density developments on this railway route in recent years and not the surburban sprawl in Knocknacarra etc. They really need to look at putting in bus lanes where possible in Galway city and improving bus times at peak hours as well.

Tadhg17

Schuhart wrote: »

Plus, have we ever actually seen the running costs of Ennis-Limerick to see how much this 'tremendous success' is costing us?

No I haven't. Has there been any report on the cost of the Ennis-Limerick service?

I imagine the Ballina and Westport lines would be pretty expensive to keep open too.