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Western Rail Corridor
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invincibleirish wrote: »But herein lies your contradiction. You consider providing railways as a public service. Where most of the Irish public is located, the GDA, railways services are limited by creaking infrastructure and lack of investment. Naturally you would assume that investment in rail should be where its needed. Its needed in urban Dublin and not rural Clare and Galway.
If we want to start talking about developing regions, first we as a nation have to be honest with ourselves and ask exactly what kind of development are we looking to promote and how can we achieve it.
You assume a contradiction where there is not one. I have said that:
1. Ireland needs more balance - which requires more investment outside Dublin in order to attract both people and private sector investment. The WRC makes up less than 1% of the funding for Transport 21.
2. I believe there is too much money wasted in Dublin and a more effective use of the resources made available to Dublin would release the necessary funds to meet its remaining infrastructural needs.
These positions are compatible not contradictory.
PS where is all this creaking infrastructure you speak of?
And how can you say that there has been a lack of investment in Dublin when the vast majority of our expenditure goes there?
Do you approve of any investment outside our glorious capital?0 -
invincibleirish wrote: »I wasn't trying to rile you, but making the point its hard to say 'Dublin' has wasted money when it has been national decision makers like Schuhart said, which have hindered its infrastructural development in favour of developing green field infrastructure in the provinces.
Once again, I did not say that the money has been wasted by Dublin. I said it has been wasted in Dublin. There is a major difference.
Where is all this greenfield infrastructure you speak of?
Do you realise that Dublin is the third smallest county in the country and if it continues to grow at the rate it has done, it will not be able to cope with the number of people?
I do however agree that the decision making needs to be more effective.0 -
You assume a contradiction where there is not one. I have said that:
1. Ireland needs more balance - which requires more investment outside Dublin in order to attract both people and private sector investment. The WRC makes up less than 1% of the funding for Transport 21.
Thats 1% of a theoretical budget that may well never be realised. Ireland needs more then 'balance' it needs to become competitive again.2. I believe there is too much money wasted in Dublin and a more effective use of the resources made available to Dublin would release the necessary funds to meet its remaining infrastructural needs.?
Examples of this money which has been wasted in Dublin?PS where is all this creaking infrastructure you speak of??
I'll let our Dublin based posters answer that but i'll guess the constraints placed on the cities railway network by lack of investment over past 25 years would figure prominently. Yes there are improvements ongoing but the cities public transport infrastructure is still woefully lacking.And how can you say that there has been a lack of investment in Dublin when the vast majority of our expenditure goes there??
Considering the GDA provides most of this states revenues and has most of its population shouldn't that be the case?.Do you approve of any investment outside our glorious capital?
Yes, yes i do. Not the WRC though.
Where is all this greenfield infrastructure you speak of?
Do you realise that Dublin is the third smallest county in the country and if it continues to grow at the rate it has done, it will not be able to cope with the number of people?
Greenfield infrastructure: Motorway programme duplicating routes across the provinces. numerous small scale airports reliant on PSOs and grants. The WRC.
When i talk about 'Dublin' i mean the GDA, which is spread across at least 6 counties and encompasses between a 1/3 and a 1/2 of the countries population.0 -
invincibleirish wrote: »Thats 1% of a theoretical budget that may well never be realised. Ireland needs more then 'balance' it needs to become competitive again.
1. Examples of this money which has been wasted in Dublin?
2. I'll let our Dublin based posters answer that but i'll guess the constraints placed on the cities railway network by lack of investment over past 25 years would figure prominently. Yes there are improvements ongoing but the cities public transport infrastructure is still woefully lacking.
3. Considering the GDA provides most of this states revenues and has most of its population shouldn't that be the case?.
4. Yes, yes i do. Not the WRC though.
5. Greenfield infrastructure: Motorway programme duplicating routes across the provinces. numerous small scale airports reliant on PSOs and grants. The WRC.
When i talk about 'Dublin' i mean the GDA, which is spread across at least 6 counties and encompasses between a 1/3 and a 1/2 of the countries population.
I have added the numbers to show which points I am responding to.
1. I have already given you examples. The failure to link up the original luas lines was ineffective use of resources. The interconnector has to be built because the capitals transport was ineffectively planned is not currently linked up - more wasted expenditure. I also disapprove of Metro West and much of the Luas extensions. The rail line to Navan is more important than all these.
2. You will let our Dublin posters answer it because you have made a point which you are incapable of backing up. Lack of investment over 25 years, what a joke.
3. With need to bring more balance to the country, there is need for more investment in areas outside the GDA. Not asking for a stop on investment in GDA.
4. I accept your right to disapprove of the WRC. As I said I agree with it if it is done properly and in stages.
5. While I think that the motorways are necessary, I agree that there are too many regional airports. Kerry, Shannon, Galway, Knock, Sligo and Donegal on the west coast is too many. Of course if they had improved rail services they would not need some of these airports Lol.0 -
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Well, no, the interconnector is just the retrofitting of infrastructure that was never put in place at all. The idea that the Luas represents an incredible amount of investment is simply wrong. Its actually only a fraction of what was invested, per passenger, in the Limerick Ennis service.The interconnector has to be built because the capitals transport was ineffectively planned is not currently linked up - more wasted expenditure.
And, unlike Limerick - Ennis, it actually makes a profit on its running expenses. This picture of largesse being delivered in Dublin simply does not accord with reality.
This has been the policy almost since the dawn of the State, and that's where the State has accordingly thrown its money. What are you suggesting that's any different to the failed policies of the last 80 years?With need to bring more balance to the country, there is need for more investment in areas outside the GDA.0 -
Well, no, the interconnector is just the retrofitting of infrastructure that was never put in place at all. The idea that the Luas represents an incredible amount of investment is simply wrong. Its actually only a fraction of what was invested, per passenger, in the Limerick Ennis service.
And, unlike Limerick - Ennis, it actually makes a profit on its running expenses. This picture of largesse being delivered in Dublin simply does not accord with reality.This has been the policy almost since the dawn of the State, and that's where the State has accordingly thrown its money. What are you suggesting that's any different to the failed policies of the last 80 years?
Can you actually back any of the rubbish you spout in this message?
If the original luas lines had of been connected from the beginning it would have been more cost-effective i.e money was wasted.
The interconnecter will do what it says on the tin - connect the public services which should have been connected from the start and would have been more cost-effective i.e. money has been wasted.
To relate this back to the WRC, my point is, if the people of the GDA ensured that there own infrastructural projects were done in the most cost-effective manner it would save more money than the WRC costs. The WRC is just an easy target.0 -
Are you talking about 150 years ago?The interconnecter will do what it says on the tin - connect the public services which should have been connected from the start and would have been more cost-effective i.e. money has been wasted.
If that is the case, it's abit like saying the Esker Riada should have been HQDC 0 -
I'd expect so. Which particular rubbish do you want me to back up?Can you actually back any of the rubbish you spout in this message?
Possbly. But you do understand that would require us to spend more money in Dublin than we have to date - ie you are actually agreeing with me that the problem in Dublin is too little has been spent.If the original luas lines had of been connected from the beginning it would have been more cost-effective i.e money was wasted.
What public services are you referring to? As it stands, the Interconnector will be integrating rail lines that predate the State, and some yet to be built.The interconnecter will do what it says on the tin - connect the public services which should have been connected from the start and would have been more cost-effective i.e. money has been wasted.
So what public services are you referring to?
Are you starting to see how quickly all the 'Dublin gets everything' rhetoric falls apart when questioned?
Firstly, the implications of what you are saying is we should be increasing our spend in Dublin.To relate this back to the WRC, my point is, if the people of the GDA ensured that there own infrastructural projects were done in the most cost-effective manner it would save more money than the WRC costs. The WRC is just an easy target.
Secondly, the WRC is an easy target as the benefits don't justify the expense.0 -
I'd expect so.
1.Which particular rubbish do you want me to back up?
2. Possbly. But you do understand that would require us to spend more money in Dublin than we have to date - ie you are actually agreeing with me that the problem in Dublin is too little has been spent.
3.What public services are you referring to? As it stands, the Interconnector will be integrating rail lines that predate the State, and some yet to be built. So what public services are you referring to?
4. Are you starting to see how quickly all the 'Dublin gets everything' rhetoric falls apart when questioned?Firstly, the implications of what you are saying is we should be increasing our spend in Dublin.
5.Secondly, the WRC is an easy target as the benefits don't justify the expense.
1. Every statement you made in the comment
2. My point was that money was wasted by not doing it properly. More money will always need to be spent in Dublin. You seem to insinuate that I am against any investment in Dublin. Far from it. I just want smarter more effective use of the the resources.
3. Again, the interconnector is being built because the job was not done properly in the first place. In a city as big, and yes as important as Dublin, all new infrastructure should be integrated from the start with existing infrastructure. This has not been done. Since when does all the infrastructural investment in Dublin pre-date the state? Have you been asleep?
4. You are still dreaming. I am asking for the more effective use of the resources given to Dublin and the state in general. For example, the Navan line is more important than the new luas lines and metro east as it would significantly reduce the number of cars coming into the city before they can cause a problem.
5. You have the right to your opinion. Let me help you by identifying a complete waste of money in the West - try Sligo airport. It only links with Dublin. The WRC would allow a rail spur to Knock airport which could easily serve Sligo and Mayo and efforts could be put into improving the Sligo - Dubln train service something which would also benefit commuters to Dublin.0 -
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let's see, navan phase 1 is going ahead so not sure what your point is regarding that, see here
http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/dunboyne_commuter_rail.asp
and sligo has benefitted from a significant increase in services over the past few years going from 3 trains per day to about 9 now, it was also the first line to benefit from the new trains.
as for your implication that the interconnector should have been built 150 years ago? well not sure what you're on about there.0 -
dereko1969 wrote: »let's see, navan phase 1 is going ahead so not sure what your point is regarding that, see here
http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/dunboyne_commuter_rail.asp
and sligo has benefitted from a significant increase in services over the past few years going from 3 trains per day to about 9 now, it was also the first line to benefit from the new trains.
as for your implication that the interconnector should have been built 150 years ago? well not sure what you're on about there.
As regards to Navan there is no reason why it should have to wait 'til 2015.
My point with Sligo was that money was being wasted on the airport and PSO when there is a rail line to Dublin. Money would be better spent going towards improving the service i.e. speed by adding a second line along more of the route. I was not trying to suggest that Sligo is neglected, only that we would be better served getting the people off the plane from Sligo to Dublin and onto the train from Sligo to Dublin. Then through the WRC we could add a link to Knock airport. This would eliminate any need for Sligo airport which I think is a waste of money. Such a link might also make Galway airport redundant.0 -
dereko1969 wrote: »as for your implication that the interconnector should have been built 150 years ago? well not sure what you're on about there.
I didn't make any such implicaton. Your implication that all the infrastructure in Dublin is 150 years old is strange to say the least! A lot of additional services have been added in Dublin in recent times.0 -
What new train lines have been built recently that didn't substantially exist before the state was created? The DART: No. The Luas: No - it replaces the old Harcourt street line and Blessington tram. Dublin had a much bigger tram and rail network 150 years ago, when the city was a fraction of the size it is now.0
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What new train lines have been built recently that didn't substantially exist before the state was created? The DART: No. The Luas: No - it replaces the old Harcourt street line and Blessington tram. Dublin had a much bigger tram and rail network 150 years ago, when the city was a fraction of the size it is now.
Oh the luas was built before, what difference does it make. Do you realise that it still cost money to put it back down?, or do you think some magic fairy did it for free?
The interconnector is being built to connect existing infrastructure. It is needed but should have been done before now. Vast money has spent on projects, which were needed, but with no thought for how people would continue with their onward journey. The same mistake was made when not linking the 2 luas lines.0 -
It certainly costs a lot less to relay tracks on an existing trackbed, then build a whole new route for them. And a very similar project to the interconnector was proposed in the 80s but cancelled to lack of funds. This highlights the whole point people have been making - spending money on public transport in Dublin has never been a priority for any Irish Government, and it has been underfunded for years and years.0
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It certainly costs a lot less to relay tracks on an existing trackbed, then build a whole new route for them. And a very similar project to the interconnector was proposed in the 80s but cancelled to lack of funds. This highlights the whole point people have been making - spending money on public transport in Dublin has never been a priority for any Irish Government, and it has been underfunded for years and years.
Well in that case you should support the WRC as it is being laid along the original line.
Almost all rail lines link to Dublin. The same for our motorways. The luas DART, Dublin Bus. Where is the lack of investment over the years? Investment in Dublin has always been a priority for Irish Governments. Of course our capital should get the largest share of investment, of course it needs more investment, but this not justification for begrudging every little piece of investment outside the GDA. The WRC is less than 1% of the cost of Transport 21.
Is all of the money being spent in Dublin, spent effectively?0 -
What job? And when wasn't it done properly?
When additional services are being planned there needs to be an allowance for future growth and expansion. With all the new services which have been added to the GDA over recent years, the need for and building of the interconnecter should have been done before now.
It is one of the most important pieces of infrastructure in the history of the state and is more important than the Luas and should have been done before the luas.0 -
@Gruffalo - "connecting existing infrastructure" could describe virtually every infrastructure project in the State. After all, the WRC from Ennis to Athenry is "only" connecting the existing station in Ennis to the existing station in Athenry. Mark my words - the principal part of WRC ridership will be south Galwegians heading to Dublin, not Galway.
As for the interconnector, the lines you describe are already connected via the Phoenix Park tunnel. This connection however has no workable platforms at Heuston for bidirectional, accessible service and very little intermediate demand. The layout of the area south of the tunnel means resolution of those problems will be difficult, expensive and cause conflicts with existing services.
The interconnector on the other hand is not only a connecting tunnel but has intermediate stations, the daily footfall from any one of which will dwarf total WRC daily ridership, never mind the ridership coming in from Kildare or Malahide. My only regret about the interconnector is the likelihood that it will be underbuilt to existing DART cars and not doubledeck EMUs to arrest the need to continually extend platforms.
Edit to note your posts after I began this one - does your 1% figure count as total T21 spend or T21 spend on rail? I suspect it's the former. Also - it is among the first T21 projects to be done, so the % of total T21 spend as opposed to the announced figure is likely to be higher again.0 -
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@Gruffalo - "connecting existing infrastructure" could describe virtually every infrastructure project in the State. After all, the WRC from Ennis to Athenry is "only" connecting the existing station in Ennis to the existing station in Athenry. Mark my words - the principal part of WRC ridership will be south Galwegians heading to Dublin, not Galway.
As for the interconnector, the lines you describe are already connected via the Phoenix Park tunnel. This connection however has no workable platforms at Heuston for bidirectional, accessible service and very little intermediate demand. The layout of the area south of the tunnel means resolution of those problems will be difficult, expensive and cause conflicts with existing services.
The interconnector on the other hand is not only a connecting tunnel but has intermediate stations, the daily footfall from any one of which will dwarf total WRC daily ridership, never mind the ridership coming in from Kildare or Malahide. My only regret about the interconnector is the likelihood that it will be underbuilt to existing DART cars and not doubledeck EMUs to arrest the need to continually extend platforms.
dowlingm I agree with much of what you are saying. I agree that the interconnecter is extremely important. I am all for it and I think it should be built to meet future demands, not just current ones.
As long as people are using the WRC does it matter if they are connecting to Dublin or Galway and remember they would not be able to do it without the new line. It should be possible to tavel, by train, between the major towns and cities in the west. The West is predicted to be the second fastest growing region in the coming years.
There is a major problem with the running of infrastructural projects in this country. See the attached list from:
http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/7048-4.pdf
See how many projects are late, behind schedule or in a category of "will they ever get done?"
If projects were better planned and run we would all be happy.0 -
Happy to oblige.1. Every statement you made in the comment
Well, no, the interconnector is just the retrofitting of infrastructure that was never put in place at all. I take it this statement requires no backup, as it is self-evident.
The idea that the Luas represents an incredible amount of investment is simply wrong.This is evident if you compare Dublin’s inadequate setup to Munich’s 6 underground and 10 suburban rail lines, a roughly comparable city. The idea that providing two tram lines in Dublin is something notable is surely unsustainable.
Its actually only a fraction of what was invested, per passenger, in the Limerick Ennis service.I worked out the comparative cost of Limerick Ennis vs Luas here. The per head cost, in track alone, was five times the cost of Luas for both track and rolling stock.
And, unlike Limerick - Ennis, it actually makes a profit on its running expenses.This is a matterof public record.
This picture of largesse being delivered in Dublin simply does not accord with reality.This has been the policy almost since the dawn of the State, and that's where the State has accordingly thrown its money.I don’t know how much detail you expect on this in a single post. But I’ll start by quoting Devalera, from a debate on unemployment in 1927, where he said (in reference to the Ardnacrusha scheme)21/06/2006 - 13:54:23
Dublin’s Luas light rail system made a profit a full year ahead of schedule, making it the only transport network in the country not in need of Government subsidies, it was revealed today.
Carrying around 60,000 people every day during 2005, the Railway Procurement Agency said Luas achieved a financial surplus of €200,000, allowing them to get by without a €2.5m handout from the Department of Transport.
So, as you can see, the initial outlook of Fianna Fail was most certainly opposed to investment in the cities.We believe that the whole object of economics ought to be to try to give to the greatest number possible in this island a decent, comfortable living. In order to work towards that ideal, we will have to ask ourselves if we are going to get towards it by building up great industries or by the ruralisation of industries. … we are glad that an effort has been made to utilise the water power of the country and build up electrical power, so that we may be able to ruralise life and our industries generally.
An awful lot could be said about the failure of those policies, through the Buchanan report and up to the National Spatial Strategy. I think airports policy illustrates it best. Shannon was drowned in incentives, while Dublin’s runway was deliberately kept too short to take fully laden long haul aircraft, in the hope this would drive business West. Instead, it drove it East to Manchester.
So, far from your contention that
, the opposite is actually the case. The fairly consistent policy for the bulk of the history of the State has actually been to obstruct investment in Dublin.Investment in Dublin has always been a priority for Irish Governments.
Its not a question of begrudging anything. Its simply a demand that 1% of the money should produce roughly 1% of the benefit. Otherwise, it’s a waste.this not justification for begrudging every little piece of investment outside the GDA. The WRC is less than 1% of the cost of Transport 21.
Now, I’ve invested a fair amount of time in this post. Can you return the favour by ending your evasion over what you mean by “all the new services which have been added to the GDA over recent years”? Apart from two tram lines, what are you referring to?
It might also be noted that the T21 plan (as I understand it) works on the idea that the time to develop the Interconnector is when the electrification of commuter service lines in complete. I’m not saying that’s particularly right or wrong. I’m just pointing out that its delivery is actually integrated into a coherent plan.
But, chiefly, can you stop the bluster and either tell us what all these “new services” are that none of us seem to know about.0 -
The Munich Metropolitan are has a population of more than 6 million i.e. more than our entire country, approx 4 times the GDA. The idea that Munich and Dublin are roughly comparable is absolute tripe. Therefore I will treat the remainder of your post with the disdain it deserves i.e. I refuse to waste my time reading it.Happy to oblige.
Well, no, the interconnector is just the retrofitting of infrastructure that was never put in place at all. I take it this statement requires no backup, as it is self-evident.
The idea that the Luas represents an incredible amount of investment is simply wrong.This is evident if you compare Dublin’s inadequate setup to Munich’s 6 underground and 10 suburban rail lines, a roughly comparable city. The idea that providing two tram lines in Dublin is something notable is surely unsustainable.0 -
The Munich Metropolitan are has a population of more than 6 million i.e. more than our entire country, approx 4 times the GDA. The idea that Munich and Dublin are roughly comparable is absolute tripe. Therefore I will treat the remainder of your post with the disdain it deserves i.e. I refuse to waste my time reading it.
The Munich suburban transport system does not serve the Munich metropolitian area; it serves an area closer to 1.5M in population. Far more comparable to Dublin.0 -
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My point was more you're making your arguments based on the worlds least reliable and most biased information source.
Anyway, taking a comparison of the area served and saying its 2x the population of ours (which it isn't, but anyway), wouldn't we need half the system they have? We've got about an eighth of it at the moment - and we've to cover more physical area due to the utterly low rise nature of Dublin.0 -
My point was more you're making your arguments based on the worlds least reliable and most biased information source.
Anyway, taking a comparison of the area served and saying its 2x the population of ours (which it isn't, but anyway), wouldn't we need half the system they have? We've got about an eighth of it at the moment - and we've to cover more physical area due to the utterly low rise nature of Dublin.
I am aware that wikipedia is not always accurate, however you are unable to prove it wrong in this instance.I would be happy if you could get us the accurate figure.
Other posters think that I am against investment in Dublin. Far from it. I just dont believe that cutting projects in the west is the answer. There are many potential alternatives, it is time for Dublin to be creative. These might consider:
1. A congestion charge, with all funds going towards public transport.
2. Allow for taller buildings in Dublin City Centre. Even 3 extra strories on each residential building would make a massive difference.
There are many other potential ways to raise funds or reduce demand. I do not see how stopping the one project in the west will really benefit Dublin.0 -
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But its not about benefiting Dublin. Its about not wasting national resources.I do not see how stopping the one project in the west will really benefit Dublin.
Have you forgotten that you are the one who introduced Dublin as an issue a few posts ago?
Incidently, any chance at all of you clearly stating what you mean by “all the new services which have been added to the GDA over recent years”?0
This discussion has been closed.
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