Western Rail Corridor

L1011

Who on that list is more qualified? Do tell us.

Local Authorities know nothing about railways
a University knows nothing about railways
Your average politician will support anything that might get votes

And can you provide any proof that any of them actually spent any due diligence investigating the proposal before slapping their name to it? You've already refused to do so for NUIG.

"This would be more reason for developing the country outside Dublin and thus reduce the subsidies."

Developing railway lines through open countryside is not going to reduce subsidies - its going to do the exact opposite.

L1011

Could you also clarify *how* they "support" it? Saying "ah, that would be nice" or providing actual strong economic arguments as to why its so far more important than the projects elsewhere it's sucking funding from - such as the lethal N11 gap, and the delay and pollution causing Cork SRR roundabouts and Newlands Cross...

Schuhart

Gruffalo wrote: »

This would be more reason for developing the country outside Dublin and thus reduce the subsidies.

I was afraid you hadn’t got the point, and this proves it.

The point is the view you are expressing has been repeated in one form or another in every generation since the founding of the State. It has been acted on in the shape of policies that favoured the West at the expense of the East. Those policies failed (the evidence being the continued growth of Dublin).

So what are you suggesting that’s different? How is the relaying of the WRC now any different to the situation in the 1950s when the country attempted to bankrupt itself keeping the WRC and lots of other regional rail lines open? Why would this ‘infrastructure first’ approach work now, when it has consistently failed for the last eighty years?

Have you any answers? I doubt it. Will you admit this? I doubt it.

Are there any anthropologists reading this that can explain the social dynamic at work in Gruffalo’s head?

Gruffalo wrote: »

Dublin and the East neglected? I can hear the little violins playing.

When the music stops would you like to indicate if you’ve any evidence that refutes my statement?

Gruffalo wrote: »

The list of people which contains people who are far more qualified than you to speak on the matter, plus others, substantiates my opinion.

As I said, if you think you can hide from the need to substantiate your opinion by waving that list around, you’re wrong. So, no, not only have you failed to substantiate your opinion. You’ve actually demonstrated that you don’t really understand what substantiation means.

Gruffalo wrote: »

If you think you know better than them perhaps you should challenge them and discredit them.

I’ve already drawn your attention to the material here that sets out why the WRC is a bad idea.

You have demonstrated that you are unable to substantiate your view. Up to this point it just seemed likely that you were running on empty. Now you’ve confirmed it.

Carawaystick

MYOB wrote: »

Who on that list is more qualified? Do tell us.

You can even use secondary sources if they, ya know, actually contain evidence and stuff.

Gruffalo

Carawaystick wrote: »

You can even use secondary sources if they, ya know, actually contain evidence and stuff.

Read back a few pages, Michael Reidy of IÉ says it is a regional development project. Most of the organisations involved who have given their support are charged with the regional development of the West.

L1011

But do they know the slightest thing about railways? If not, they're not qualified to talk about them.

You also used "most" without naming which ones...

Gruffalo

Schuhart, thanks for the link back to earlier parts of the thread. I have really enjoyed reading it. While I do not believe either side has won the argument, I have found a few things enlightening.

• Both the West and Dublin seem to think they are bigger than they are.
• The old East -West rivalry is probably bigger than I had ever imagined.
• The way we do things in this country is messed up and needs to be rectified.

Investment in Dublin can always be justified due to the large numbers in the region. However there is need for a little more balance, this does not mean cutting expenditure to our capital. I am a fan of the WRC, however I am a little bit concerned about the manner in which it has come about.

That being said the Galway to Limerick stretch is almost finished and we will have to see how that goes. Personally, I think there is potential to build a reasonable service here, over a few years. There are many potential customer bases, including:

• Commuters - Limerick, Dublin, Galway
• Daytrippers
• Tourists
• Students - Two university cities

There seem to be a number of people stating that the failure of the service is a fact, yet it has not even begun and there are many determining factors which remain unknown, including:

• How fast will it be?
• Can the speed be improved?
• How much will the fares be?
• The cost and duration of competing services? If traffic on the road increases will car and bus times increase?
• Will it be Galway-Limerick or Limerick Junction? If the latter will it connect with Cork trains?
• Will the relevant authorities do all within their powers to increase popualtion growth along the lines?

While I admire the way that the lobby group rallied support for this project, one really does ask if their was fairness in the project being commissioned. In the free for all that is Irish infrastructural investment, the one who shouts loudest seems to get what he wants? WoT seem to have had the loudest yell of all. No doubt, this being Ireland, there were all sorts of political shenanigans going on.

However, many of the contributors on this thread have made strong and well reasoned arguments that this should not be the case, and in general I would agree. We surely require a clearer and more transparent system for determining which projects to support. It seems that all the contributors respect the way that Cork have gone about their business by building up the necesssary population along the route, with regards to the Midleton line. Surely this kind of approach is the way forward. We should be planning much further ahead and all the relevant stakeholders should be working together to make sure that routes are more viable before we give the go ahead. I can really understand why people in high population centres like Navan would be annoyed to see stations serve such miniscule populations as Ardrahan.

Anyway I am off to a meeting on the Baileboro to Drumshanbo via Ballybunion trainline.

Zebra3

Gruffalo wrote: »

There seem to be a number of people stating that the failure of the service is a fact, yet it has not even begun and there are many determining factors which remain unknown, including:

• How fast will it be?
• Can the speed be improved?
• How much will the fares be?
• The cost and duration of competing services? If traffic on the road increases will car and bus times increase?
• Will it be Galway-Limerick or Limerick Junction? If the latter will it connect with Cork trains?
• Will the relevant authorities do all within their powers to increase popualtion growth along the lines?

You'd think questions like that would be answered in advance of pouring money down a black hole.... :rolleyes:

Cool Mo D

I think we know the answer to some of those questions.

I've heard that the time for the journey Galway-Limerick will be 1hr50mins.

I believe it will run Galway-Limerick junction - basically an extension of the current Ennis train northwards.
Currently, Ennis trains meet Dublin trains at the junction at about the same time. Due to the station layout, it's not possible to have trains from Dublin, Cork and Limerick meeting at the same time, which is why the current Limerick to Cork connection has such a long wait time at Limerick Junction.
I believe IE are building another platform at the junction which would allow trains from Limerick to meet trains from Cork and Dublin together.
This would provide a good Limerick-Dublin and Limerick-Cork connection, and would also allow a proper Cork-Waterford connection, if trains were run Galway-Limerick-Waterford. Since it's a chance for a bit of joined up thinking on IE's part, this is unlikely to happen

Gruffalo

Cool Mo D wrote: »

I think we know the answer to some of those questions.

I've heard that the time for the journey Galway-Limerick will be 1hr50mins.

I believe it will run Galway-Limerick junction - basically an extension of the current Ennis train northwards.
Currently, Ennis trains meet Dublin trains at the junction at about the same time. Due to the station layout, it's not possible to have trains from Dublin, Cork and Limerick meeting at the same time, which is why the current Limerick to Cork connection has such a long wait time at Limerick Junction.
I believe IE are building another platform at the junction which would allow trains from Limerick to meet trains from Cork and Dublin together.
This would provide a good Limerick-Dublin and Limerick-Cork connection, and would also allow a proper Cork-Waterford connection, if trains were run Galway-Limerick-Waterford. Since it's a chance for a bit of joined up thinking on IE's part, this is unlikely to happen

Thanks for the info. IÉ do not inspire faith in anyone.

dowlingm

Cool Mo D wrote: »

I believe it will run Galway-Limerick junction - basically an extension of the current Ennis train northwards.

My understanding is that Ennis trains do not run to LJ but to Limerick. So sez the IE timetable at any rate. The only Ennis train that doesn't require a change at LJ doesn't stop there at all (1705FO ex Heuston).

Cool Mo D

They are timetabled separately, but are the same train in practise, in my experience. There are a few daily Ennis trains that don't continue to the junction and meet a direct Dublin-Limerick service, but that's it.

Poxyshamrock

How viable would a direct link from Galway/Ennis to Limerick Junction be?
It actually wouldnt be that large.
Just a quick spur at the Ballysimon Road in Limerick as shown below.

Zoney

dowlingm wrote: »

My understanding is that Ennis trains do not run to LJ but to Limerick. So sez the IE timetable at any rate. The only Ennis train that doesn't require a change at LJ doesn't stop there at all (1705FO ex Heuston).

As far as I know, almost all trips between Ennis and Dublin require a change, but only one - either LJ or Limerick. Roughly every second train goes from Ennis to Limerick, then the same train Limerick-LJ. The other Ennis trains just go to Limerick, connect with Lim-Dub direct, and run back to Ennis. It's a quite nice sensible arrangment, nice bit of regularity and plannign to it to arrange so many Ennis-Dublin trips that only have one change.

Victor

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

How viable would a direct link from Galway/Ennis to Limerick Junction be?
It actually wouldnt be that large.
Just a quick spur at the Ballysimon Road in Limerick as shown below.

Until Ennis is substantially bigger than Limerick, such a connection isn't needed or indeed desirable. The only exception might be the likes of a match special.

An Ennis-Limerick-Limerick Junction service is profoundly better than an Ennis-Limerick Junction direct service as the economics of scale mean mean more / larger trains can be provided.

Carawaystick

Gruffalo wrote: »

Thanks for the info. IÉ do not inspire faith in anyone.

Ah Glad you agree that IE running a wrc is a waste of money. The only person you quoted to back up your argument was Michael Reidy of IE. but if he doesn't inspire faith in you or me or indeed anyone, then you need to provide links to evidence to support your view that a train line between Ennis and Athenry will be of any use.
What if it rains and the line closes for a few weeks? There is no plan to fix the flooding issue that closed the line between Ennis and Limerick.
If there was Dual Carriageway /Motorway/Bus corridors between Galway city and Limerick City, and they closed for a few weeks because there was a bit of rain, this situation would just not be tolerated.
Look at the outcry when the ridge at Leenane collapsed on a national secondary route last year or the year before.

Judgement Day

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

How viable would a direct link from Galway/Ennis to Limerick Junction be?
It actually wouldnt be that large.
Just a quick spur at the Ballysimon Road in Limerick as shown below.

While your suggestion does show imagination - don't apply for a job with IE or Dept.of Transport - it is not realistic as what about passengers wishing to travel from Galway, Ennis etc. to Limerick? The reality is that continuing into Limerick, the driver changing ends and passengers disembarking/embarking would not add very much to the overall journey time.

Gruffalo

Carawaystick wrote: »

Ah Glad you agree that IE running a wrc is a waste of money.

Your delusions are a daily thing so, I dont like IÉ, I dont have issues with the WRC. On the Ennis to Athenry thing, you will just have to accept that it is nearly finished and all your petty little protesting can no longer stop it, fact. The west has gotten its way on this one. I believe that it will do fine after a few years (opinion), you dont (opinion). We will just have to wait and see.

From what I can see you don't believe the northern end should be built, and while I do, I dont think there should be any rush on doing it. Its highly likely to be cut in next months emergency budget anyway so no real argument to be had there.

Gruffalo

Victor wrote: »

Until Ennis is substantially bigger than Limerick, such a connection isn't needed or indeed desirable. The only exception might be the likes of a match special.

An Ennis-Limerick-Limerick Junction service is profoundly better than an Ennis-Limerick Junction direct service as the economics of scale mean mean more / larger trains can be provided.

Fair point. I know it has probably been asked already, but is there any info on the numbers travelling from Ennis?

dowlingm

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

How viable would a direct link from Galway/Ennis to Limerick Junction be?
It actually wouldnt be that large.
Just a quick spur at the Ballysimon Road in Limerick as shown below.

Poxyshamrock, why would you want to bypass Limerick Station and therefore the City of Limerick? Even if you did have a good reason, a direct curve across that roundabout, the sides about which are very steep as I have driven past it a few times, would be a highly expensive proposition when in the DMU world you could just put a siding into the Colbert approach and have the driver change ends and switch to the Limerick Junction line for comparative peanuts.

In any case, the run into Colbert is pretty far down the list of things to be done to improve the service, like more loops on the Ennis, looping or doubletracking Limerick Junction-Limerick and improving the Limerick Junction platforms. Adding a halt at the Parkway would be great for people heading to UL if it weren't for the feckin curve...

Carawaystick

Gruffalo wrote: »

Your delusions are a daily thing so, I dont like IÉ, I dont have issues with the WRC. On the Ennis to Athenry thing, you will just have to accept that it is nearly finished and all your petty little protesting can no longer stop it, fact. The west has gotten its way on this one. I believe that it will do fine after a few years (opinion), you dont (opinion). We will just have to wait and see.

Can you clearly state what you think "Doing Fine" means in terms of passenger numbers for the record? What sort of passengers per day figure do you think would show a success?
If the passenger numbers don't cover operating costs within say 5 years, should the line be closed again or should services elsewhere be reduced?

dowlingm

Carawaystick wrote: »

Can you clearly state what you think "Doing Fine" means in terms of passenger numbers for the record? What sort of passengers per day figure do you think would show a success?
If the passenger numbers don't cover operating costs within say 5 years, should the line be closed again or should services elsewhere be reduced?

I would also like to hear Gruffalo's answer on this one. I think it's a fair question.

Gruffalo

dowlingm wrote: »

I would also like to hear Gruffalo's answer on this one. I think it's a fair question.

Speaking for the part about to be completed, from what I recall passenger targets were set somewhere in the region of 200,000 for the first year and were to be built up form there.

As for the subventions which will be required, I believe that the West cannot have its cake and eat it. Stop paying for people to fly across this tiny little island. If an airport is dependent on this to stay open, then close it. They have train lines to dublin, let them use them. Sacrifice one subvention to pay for another.

corktina

Gruffalo wrote: »

I
From what I can see you don't believe the northern end should be built, and while I do, I dont think there should be any rush on doing it. Its highly likely to be cut in next months emergency budget anyway so no real argument to be had there.

actually most of us believe that the northern end should be ploughed into the soil and sold of in as many parcels as possible so that our Children and greandchildren et al wont have to pay for it as well as the millstone that will prove to be the southern section

Gruffalo

corktina wrote: »

actually most of us believe that the northern end should be ploughed into the soil and sold of in as many parcels as possible so that our Children and greandchildren et al wont have to pay for it as well as the millstone that will prove to be the southern section

You have obvioulsy forgotten about the masterplan - Knock airport. They aim to have a spur on the Western Rail Corridor by 2020, by which time they aim to have over 2 million passengers per year. At this rate Knock could be the first of our airports to have a rail link. I can see it now, people from all over Europe snapping up cheap ryanair flights to Galway (Knock) airport.

People of Ballyglunin and Collooney prepare the tourist brochures.

http://www.irelandwestairport.com/downloads/Vision_2020.pdf

corktina

you are joking right?:rolleyes:

Gruffalo

corktina wrote: »

you are joking right?:rolleyes:

Where is the joke? Did you read the document. Page 2 gives the vision:

1 million passengers by 2010
1.5 by 2015
2 million by 2020

WRC spur sometime by 2020. Sure the West is awake

Go West!
Life is hectic there
Go West!
From Sligo to Clare

dowlingm

The number that matters with the WRC is ridership from Athenry-Ennis north and southbound. When the WRC folks start issuing press releases the trick is going to be obtaining numbers from Limerick-Ennis and Athenry-Galway to net them out from the actual line extension. Sixmilebridge will increase the Limerick-Ennis number but it shouldn't count as part of the Athenry-Ennis project anyway, it should have been built before now.

Of course, if IE were really interested in this route they would charter a bus to provide connecting service from Athenry to Ennis pending the reopening of the line... after all, buses (presumably BE) are marked as connections to Limerick Junction on journeys between Waterford and Killarney on irishrail.ie

Gruffalo

dowlingm wrote: »

The number that matters with the WRC is ridership from Athenry-Ennis north and southbound. When the WRC folks start issuing press releases the trick is going to be obtaining numbers from Limerick-Ennis and Athenry-Galway to net them out from the actual line extension. Sixmilebridge will increase the Limerick-Ennis number but it shouldn't count as part of the Athenry-Ennis project anyway, it should have been built before now.

I think the number fiddling will be from those who support it and those who oppose it. I am more chilled on this. As far as I am concerned, anyone who makes a journey, part of which takes place on the WRC is using the WRC, or on a service which would not be there if it was not for the WRC is using the WRC e.g. from Oranmore to Galway on a WRC train. The fact that there are already a few hardy souls on the Ennis end is a bonus. Any idea how many?

I understand that you disagree with this, and why you disagree with this but thats life.

corktina

Gruffalo wrote: »

Where is the joke? Did you read the document. Page 2 gives the vision:

1 million passengers by 2010
1.5 by 2015
2 million by 2020

WRC spur sometime by 2020. Sure the West is awake

Go West!
Life is hectic there
Go West!
From Sligo to Clare

oh stop stop please....oh my aching sides...will my socks ever dry I wonder?:D