Western Rail Corridor

Nostradamus

Most of P11 commitee were not happy about it taking over the rail investment agenda in Ireland were the money for railways is always scare. Im my case I was using the Dublin-Sligo line a couple of times a week and wanted that sorted. 5 years ago it was a third world service in every way.

There was one individual in P11 who literally wanted every closed rail line in the country reopen. (and whom was also against the Interconnector) and we were trying to be all things to all folks. Impossible.

When this person left P11, the remaining people in the committee decided that the WRC was sucking up all the rail investment profile and driving the naitonal rail investment agenda. It just had to be stopped. When you see the likes of Green Party on TV saying things like the WRC is the most important transport project on this island it got scary.

The reaction you talked about from certain quarters ranged from surprise and disapointment (which I understand completely), to hysterical and in some cases psychotic. I think at that point I realised that this whole WRC concept for some people in this country and in the UK was more akin to a religious movement with its collection of zealots and other unfortunates.

To be fair, I think that 5 years on Platform11 stance has been mainly validated and even many people who were pissed off at P11 at the time have come to accept (mainly due to the stagnation of rail investment in Dublin) that P11's concern that the WRC would damage the future of rail investment in Ireland was sadly the correct one.

The whole thing was spun as an attack on the West at the time which was a cheap shot as P11 had a fair few campaings for rail investment West of the Shannon at the time. We were mainly against it because of what we saw happen in the UK were investment in mainline and commuter services had been damaged due to various groups demanding that every rural branch line remain opened. If that mindset was to be applied to a smaller and less populated country such as Ireland then it would be a disaster for the rail network here. In time it woud be reduced to something akin to the Isle of Mann railways.

I have nothing personal against the WoT people, I even know one of them fairly well and most of they mean well. But they are wrong, and in many cases they are being used by certain hobbyists (some not paying tax in this country) who are looking to have Irish taxpayers money wasted on their hobby.

DWCommuter

Schuhart wrote: »

In fairness to the P11 folk who were active at that time, am I right that ye actually did have to courage to change from an initially supportive position to calling the WRC as it was once the plain facts of the matter were clear.

I suppose it did take some courage. We had been very supportive of the line even before WOT had been formed, rebranding it the "Atlantic Rail Corridor" ARC, long before a similar name was applied to a certain road project. It was very easy to fall into a trap of wanting all sorts of lines reopened, so we set out to educate ourselves on a myriad of projects in a time when neither the Government or Irish Rail were willing to be very informative about anything. In early 2004, after looking at the route, we decided that the money would be better spent on commuter intensive rail projects in the west. What topped it all off was the WOT report which wanted the line reopened from the Sligo end first. It became very obvious that this project had the ability to damage more important rail development elsewhere.

Of course we were accused of doing a u-turn and being indecisive, when it was actually a case of extensive research permitting us to have a very realistic view of the lines chances. To go on the radio in the West of Ireland and articulate this was a brave thing to do. Personally I've no regrets. In time we will be seen as right, but I won't gain any joy from that because by then the damage is done. The only unfortunate aspect of it were the abusive phonecalls to both myself and then my wife from deranged lunatics. That pissed me off, especially at 2.30 in the morning.

When you see newly introduced speed restrictions on the country's most important rail line, inadequate passenger facilities in busy stations, study after study and planning strategies before midleton gets the nod and then watch as brand new track is laid along with state of the art stations on the WRC without any cost benefit analysis or planning considerations well you have to think, maybe those P11 lads had a point 5 years ago. We said it would suck resources from more important rail needs and it has. This will become more obvious as time passes. And don't forget the increased subsidy the WRC will require at a time when cash is well and truly short in supply.

But sure we had a go and I'm certainly glad we did despite some of the more crazy criticisms.

dermo88

I started going back through some of the documents I held back in those days between 2004 and 2007, and two of the individuals around back then were absolutely deranged should you say anything against that project. One was Ivatt, who engaged in the "lets reopen every closed line". The other was Alan Helfner MGWR who was'nt even an Irish taxpayer, but then again, I am well qualified to talk in that regard. That being said, I don't go around to Datuk Lim Kim Choy demanding that the Malaysian government reopen Tampin to Melaka because the Japanese lifted it to build the Burma Siam death railway. Why should I, I have better things to do, and on that particular 144km run an express bus takes 2 hours, costs 2.75 Euro, and the fastest the train could do is 2 hours 30 minutes, and would cost 4 Euro easily, and I have better things to do with my time. Plus, knowing Malayan Railways, it would be slow, late, cancelled, derailed, since their record makes Iarnrod Eireann look like the Japanese in terms of efficiency. But you get what you pay for, except in Ireland where you pay and get less.

Alan Helfner, I recall used the phrase "Platform11 fellate the government". I mean, that is deranged language. Fair enough if you love railways, but not to the point where such an analogy is required. I can only make certain assumptions based on the use of the term "fellate", and conclude that they are likely not engaging in pursuits that would lead to being fellated. The last e-mail from him, I only received two, before asking him to leave me alone opened with "Why are you so anti-rail"

My next bit countering him was on railfreight

"Theres only two major flows in the whole country that are worth putting on rail. Tara Mines (already there), and Galmoy/Lisheen"

"I'd like to see Freight off the roads and on rail, but I am against taxation and protectionism of most kinds. Noble objectives become an oppressive millstone around the neck of the economy, around the neck of business and consumers. These impact all the way down and cause avoidable inflation. One cause of the loss of railfreight is the land asset price boom. The Government that succeeds in deflating this, lowering the cost of living, cutting excise taxes, is the one that gets my vote"

Then he comes out with his prize Turkey line:

"its killing the country"

Articulated trucks are referred to as "beasts"

Which we can agree is melodramatic bollocks.

This same man referred to the Interconnector as the "interboondoggle"

And deranged, sociopathic, or worse are only some words we could apply to the likes of this.

I mean, back then, I believe this was a man of 34. This is the same language I expressed when I was a reborn rail enthusiast between 17 and 19 around 1993-1994, and there might have been some justification for it back then considering how decrepit the railway network was. The real world kicked, and like most found that money does not grow on trees. That meant having some damn respect for those who worked for it, paid taxes, and that included motorists and truck drivers. Travel broadens the mind, and it does lead to a conclusion that while railways are nice, they are not the all encompassing solution to Holy Kyoto that they like to make them out to be. Ireland is not Switzerland, its not Norway, nor is it ever likely to be. Todd Andrews was not the villain he was made out to be, in fact, if anything he was the saviour of Irish Railways, and the cutbacks were necessary. The cutbacks were known of as far back as 1938, and took 30 years or more to implement.

If I were chairman of CIE right now, I'd deliberately get the last batch of Mark 2d's, or Mark 3's and send them to Mayo pronto. With the windows smashed. They'd beg for Cromwell. They'd beg for the famine. They'd beg for social justice.

And this is how the conversation would go.

"If I hear one more word about the Western Rail Corridor, you will have these trains for as long as I am in charge. Otherwise, you have a choice. You can take the improved 5 trains a day, with the new railcars, with accelerated schedule, or you can have what you had before. Also, I am signing the lifting order for Athenry to Collooney Junction. If you object, you'll have one train a day between Athlone and Westport. Do I make myself clear. I want no bull**** from pulpits, no priests, no lobbyists, and if anyone from the Flynn family complains, they will be told where to go, even if I am an arrogant stuck up jackeen"

No more problem. And while that last train goes and does the lifting, the miracle gro gets sown.

Turning my attention then to Ivatt.

"High speed rural light rail is the next big thing"

The mind boggles, does'nt it. They did not take kindly to my advice to stick to SIM city and Hornby trainsets. One costs 16 Euro, the next 60 Euro, but they want the taxpayer to spend 600 Million to 6 Billion Euro on their hobby. They hated Platform 11 so much that they it became #&$#&# on Irishrailwaynews. They lost all credibility in my eyes. And lets face it, seriously, a choice may have to be made in the next few years. Do we have a proper education and health service, or do we privatise Iarnrod Eireann, implement massive fare hikes, or cutbacks. Anyone who says close hospital beds and schools for railways has no heart. Anyone who sats keep the railways and close hospitals has no brain.

But anyway, I'll leave it for now, these pearls of wisdom from 2004-2005. I could mention fellatio, but I don't want to, or need to. Those who talk too much of it are obviously not getting any of it.

corktina

An interesting read to say the least. I dont agree with ALL you say but basically I'm with you all the way on priorities in spending. If Rail is shown NOT to be the way to do it, then it should go. If , for instance, a better cheaper service could be had by express coach using the Motorways soon to be in place to the west, the north-west and the south-east , then so be it....

The Cork-Dublin and Dublin-Belfast route and certain commuter services might prove to be the only bits left in a few years and Id rather see even these go than see services in Health and Education cut, and I'm most certainly not anti-rail.

bk

corktina wrote: »

The Cork-Dublin and Dublin-Belfast route and certain commuter services might prove to be the only bits left in a few years and Id rather see even these go than see services in Health and Education cut, and I'm most certainly not anti-rail.

And even those are marginal, with the new Cork to Dublin motorway it is now actually faster (and cheaper) to drive and the motorway isn't even finished yet.

Dublin-Belfast much the same, once the Newry by-pass is finished, it'll be a flyer.

The only advantage IR have on these routes is that you can work, relax, watch a DVD on the train, but IR even manage to mess that up with no wifi onboard and no in seat power. New carriages and no modern tech and very uncomfortable ride, genius.

Once one of the bus coach companies put, direct, non-stop coaches on these completed Motorways, with on board toilets and free wifi, for a lot less then IR, these routes will be in serious trouble.

Jim Martin

You seem to be forgetting one (crucial) thing in all this - sustainability?

Judgement Day

corktina wrote: »

An interesting read to say the least. I dont agree with ALL you say but basically I'm with you all the way on priorities in spending. If Rail is shown NOT to be the way to do it, then it should go. If , for instance, a better cheaper service could be had by express coach using the Motorways soon to be in place to the west, the north-west and the south-east , then so be it....

The Cork-Dublin and Dublin-Belfast route and certain commuter services might prove to be the only bits left in a few years and Id rather see even these go than see services in Health and Education cut, and I'm most certainly not anti-rail.

You really do talk a lot of tosh especially for someone who purports to be a railway enthusiast but I suppose that you can be an enthusiast without knowing anything at all about the topic! I am busy today but I'll be back to counter ALL your arguments in full.

corktina

Judgement Day wrote: »

You really do talk a lot of tosh especially for someone who purports to be a railway enthusiast but I suppose that you can be an enthusiast without knowing anything at all about the topic! I am busy today but I'll be back to counter ALL your arguments in full.

what arguements? can you not see the "IF" I typed ?

And btw just becasue you can hide behind a psedonym, theres no need to resort to insults.

Sponge Bob

bk wrote: »

Once one of the bus coach companies put, direct, non-stop coaches on these completed Motorways, with on board toilets and free wifi, for a lot less then IR, these routes will be in serious trouble.

I warned of precisely that last year and shortly thereafter it came to pass !! The only change since then is that IE have looked properly at the 4 track between Heuston and Cherry Orchard and are thankfully moving the Interconnector portal to Inchicore instead and quadtracking thereafter...if they get any money that is .


http://www.gobus.ie/about.php

The company was set up in 2009 to provide the only, point to point service between Galway, Dublin and Dublin Airport. This new service will operate non stop along the N6 road network and later join the M6 Motorway, providing passengers with reliability and efficiency, that benefits and promotes the use of public transport and discourages people using the car unnecessarily, where there is a viable alternative.

GoBus is proud to be the first Galway to Dublin coach service to launch free Wi-Fi to all travellers. This new service caters to its new generation of internet enabled customers, be it business travellers, students or tourists - people who would actually benefit from being able to stay connected.

Buses are fine as long as you are not stuck on them for over 2 - 2.5hours ( a bit like Ryanair in fact )

corktina

Jim Martin wrote: »

You seem to be forgetting one (crucial) thing in all this - sustainability?

what about diminishing returns? The railway is left with a lot of fixed costs which cannot be easily reduced and if they lose say 20% of their passengers to a decent coach service. what then? who pays?

Id say its easier to make a coach run on sustainable energy than a train....

Schuhart

corktina wrote: »

what about diminishing returns? The railway is left with a lot of fixed costs which cannot be easily reduced and if they lose say 20% of their passengers to a decent coach service. what then? who pays?

Id say its easier to make a coach run on sustainable energy than a train....

I think these are valid considerations. Put another way, I think people who apply the word 'sustainability' to the WRC really aren't thinking about what sustainability means. I think its application here represents the kind of slogan thinking that drives the WRC. Rail may be a sensible option on sustainability grounds if you get the numbers to justify it. That gets turned into an 'Animal Farm' type chant of "Rail legs good, Road legs bad". So the WRC, being rail, obviously has to be good. (I'd say Aristotle is spinning in his tomb over this misuse of logic. ).

What's left out of this is that running largely empty diesel railcars up and down the country doesn't increase our sustainability. It reduces it.

Zoney

bk wrote: »

The only advantage IR have on these routes is that you can work, relax, watch a DVD on the train, but IR even manage to mess that up with no wifi onboard and no in seat power. New carriages and no modern tech and very uncomfortable ride, genius.

All the regional railcars have double power outlets under every table. Wifi onboard is not unlikely in the future, but it is not trivial to sort out, not least due to the dire state of our national broadband infrastructure. Onboard wifi linked to 3G coverage would not be a particularly good use of money (those desperate enough to use 3G, often far poorer performance than dialup, can just use their own devices).

Relatively little speed improvement is needed to provide a boost to the train (obviously a significant improvement would be nice). I recently travelled Limk-Dub for 2hr15 for €15, and even with the M7 complete, that will still be pretty attractive! Newport junction to Naas Road might be as little as 1hr30, but even just at the Limerick end, you'd be talking 15/30 mins to get to the city centre, and in Dublin... Hah! OK maybe you wouldn't be going to the city centre, but transport onwards is often most easily arranged from there. I think even with the full M7 it would be doubtful if you could get from Colbert Station to Heuston Station by car within even the same time as the train during normal hours.

D.L.R.

Schuhart wrote: »

I think these are valid considerations. Put another way, I think people who apply the word 'sustainability' to the WRC really aren't thinking about what sustainability means. I think its application here represents the kind of slogan thinking that drives the WRC. Rail may be a sensible option on sustainability grounds if you get the numbers to justify it. That gets turned into an 'Animal Farm' type chant of "Rail legs good, Road legs bad". So the WRC, being rail, obviously has to be good. (I'd say Aristotle is spinning in his tomb over this misuse of logic. ).

What's left out of this is that running largely empty diesel railcars up and down the country doesn't increase our sustainability. It reduces it.

I'd say Aristotle also understood the principle of a straight line being the shortest route between two points.

bk

Zoney wrote: »

All the regional railcars have double power outlets under every table. Wifi onboard is not unlikely in the future, but it is not trivial to sort out, not least due to the dire state of our national broadband infrastructure. Onboard wifi linked to 3G coverage would not be a particularly good use of money (those desperate enough to use 3G, often far poorer performance than dialup, can just use their own devices).

There is power under the tables of the new railcars, but not on the new Cork to Dublin carriages, only one plug (for cleaner) up at the front seat, ridiculous situation for brand new carriages on IR's premium route.

An Irish company offered to fit free wifi to IR trains for free, so no cost to IR. BTW such a system works much better then a 3G dongle. Yes they both use 3G for the connection, however a in train wifi system is usually mounted on the roof and has a much larger and powerful aerial to give you a better and more stable connection.

Zoney wrote: »

Relatively little speed improvement is needed to provide a boost to the train (obviously a significant improvement would be nice). I recently travelled Limk-Dub for 2hr15 for €15, and even with the M7 complete, that will still be pretty attractive! Newport junction to Naas Road might be as little as 1hr30, but even just at the Limerick end, you'd be talking 15/30 mins to get to the city centre, and in Dublin... Hah! OK maybe you wouldn't be going to the city centre, but transport onwards is often most easily arranged from there. I think even with the full M7 it would be doubtful if you could get from Colbert Station to Heuston Station by car within even the same time as the train during normal hours.

On the other I regularly travel Cork to Dublin, it costs €66 return and takes about 3 hours (seems to be slower at the moment, I assume track works going on).

You can do Cork to Dublin, with out breaking the speed limit in about 2 hours 30 minutes.

Zoney

bk wrote: »

An Irish company offered to fit free wifi to IR trains for free, so no cost to IR. BTW such a system works much better then a 3G dongle. Yes they both use 3G for the connection, however a in train wifi system is usually mounted on the roof and has a much larger and powerful aerial to give you a better and more stable connection.

That would have been a waste (and it is money that comes from us consumers in the end - not to mention the cost/inconvenience of having trains bogged down in being kitted out)! Even with the bigger aerial, you would need many 3G cells in close proximity to the line (and consistently along it) for the whole train to get a decent fraction of the top speed (even then it would be a fraction due to not being absolutely next the transmitter, interference, etc). And that speed is divided amongst the users, so more than about 8 users and you get dial-up speeds, more again and you get worse. Even being pessimistic about the users on an Irish train, it's unlikely you'd have that few users.

It would be madness to bother installing 3G pick-up on the trains. I would say the only beneficiaries are the mobile phone cos. but the tech is so bad that the data costs are far far higher than are charged - so 3G, as abysmal a service as it is, is subsidised by the voice users.

I can assure you that the situation with broadband in Ireland makes railways in Ireland look a beacon of sanity.

bk

Zoney wrote: »

That would have been a waste (and it is money that comes from us consumers in the end - not to mention the cost/inconvenience of having trains bogged down in being kitted out)! Even with the bigger aerial, you would need many 3G cells in close proximity to the line (and consistently along it) for the whole train to get a decent fraction of the top speed (even then it would be a fraction due to not being absolutely next the transmitter, interference, etc). And that speed is divided amongst the users, so more than about 8 users and you get dial-up speeds, more again and you get worse. Even being pessimistic about the users on an Irish train, it's unlikely you'd have that few users.

It would be madness to bother installing 3G pick-up on the trains. I would say the only beneficiaries are the mobile phone cos. but the tech is so bad that the data costs are far far higher than are charged - so 3G, as abysmal a service as it is, is subsidised by the voice users.

I can assure you that the situation with broadband in Ireland makes railways in Ireland look a beacon of sanity.

Given that I'm a previous member of IrelandOffLine, I can assure you I know far more about the BB situation in Ireland then most people.

Again, this service would cost IR nothing, an Irish company offered to install it for free and this same company have already done so on some private coach bus services here in Ireland and have done the same in the UK.

The train companies in Germany are installing this exact equipment, as they realise that the train is a premium service and that it needs to compete effectively against car and bus on their excellent motorways and the best way to do that is to play to the one advantage rail has, the ability for people to work and play onboard, which means onborad power and wifi and these things can be done at little cost, but greatly improve the train experience.

BTW even dial-up speeds would be good enough for most people, it would be good enough for a little surfing and email, I'm not saying people would be playing counter strike on the train or downloading HD movies, but just a basic internet service would be nice for people.

corktina

bk wrote: »

There is power under the tables of the new railcars, but not on the new Cork to Dublin carriages, only one plug (for cleaner) up at the front seat, ridiculous situation for brand new carriages on IR's premium route.

An Irish company offered to fit free wifi to IR trains for free, so no cost to IR. BTW such a system works much better then a 3G dongle. Yes they both use 3G for the connection, however a in train wifi system is usually mounted on the roof and has a much larger and powerful aerial to give you a better and more stable connection.



On the other I regularly travel Cork to Dublin, it costs €66 return and takes about 3 hours (seems to be slower at the moment, I assume track works going on).

You can do Cork to Dublin, with out breaking the speed limit in about 2 hours 30 minutes.

and it will be even quicker very shortly when the last two M8 sections are finished....about 2 hours id say. For the train to comopete it needs to be MUCH quicker than by raod (viz Intercity 125 in the UK, ICE in Germany, TGV in France.)

Gruffalo

bk wrote: »

The train companies in Germany are installing this exact equipment, as they realise that the train is a premium service and that it needs to compete effectively against car and bus on their excellent motorways and the best way to do that is to play to the one advantage rail has, the ability for people to work and play onboard, which means onborad power and wifi and these things can be done at little cost, but greatly improve the train experience.

BTW even dial-up speeds would be good enough for most people, it would be good enough for a little surfing and email, I'm not saying people would be playing counter strike on the train or downloading HD movies, but just a basic internet service would be nice for people.

This is a solid argument. The train system needs to be run to maximise the competitive advantages it has. Being able to work comfortably is one of these advantages.

It is not comfortable to work on your laptop on a bus and it is not possible in a car. For most business men 3 hours spent completing valuable work on a train will beat two hours getting no work done in a car. As for the increased price of train compared to driving or bus, the value of the work completed on the journey would most likely cancel out the difference in cost.

ardmacha

Hopefully they've installed fibre optic cable along the WRC. Rent out the capacity on this and sites along the line to the phone companies or digiweb, and you improve service generally and have good service along the line too.

dowlingm

Stop talking about TGVs FFS. The premier line of this country now has a 75mph speed restriction between Newbridge and Portlaoise. The Dublin-Cork line as a whole is in need of replacement with high quality CWR and also needs the urgent completion of the Limerick Junction works. Nenagh-Limerick is now scheduled 10 minutes later because the state of the track has exposed the unrealistic notions of the schedulers. Navan still has no rail service to south or east. Meanwhile track crews are bimbling up and down between Ennis and Athenry opening former cattle loading stations.

Those of us living in the real world, knowing that the McCann Report was not a vindication of the WRC so much as indictment - that there WAS a limited amount of cash and that CIE and DofT didn't have the skills to outwit the NRA in seeking to rebalance the spending on mass transportation, were right and those who said that the WRC would not impact investment on lines where services needed to be improved were wrong.

If the WRC never opens the Wesht is no worse off than before, but if existing Irish Rail service falls off a cliff the rest of us will be. Fr. McGreil and the rest of the Most Oppressed People Ever (Connaught Branch) should cancel their conferences and hope that the people who pay the bills don't come after them with flaming torches and pitchforks.

DWCommuter

dowlingm wrote: »

Stop talking about TGVs FFS. The premier line of this country now has a 75mph speed restriction between Newbridge and Portlaoise. The Dublin-Cork line as a whole is in need of replacement with high quality CWR and also needs the urgent completion of the Limerick Junction works. Nenagh-Limerick is now scheduled 10 minutes later because the state of the track has exposed the unrealistic notions of the schedulers. Navan still has no rail service to south or east. Meanwhile track crews are bimbling up and down between Ennis and Athenry opening former cattle loading stations.

Those of us living in the real world, knowing that the McCann Report was not a vindication of the WRC so much as indictment - that there WAS a limited amount of cash and that CIE and DofT didn't have the skills to outwit the NRA in seeking to rebalance the spending on mass transportation, were right and those who said that the WRC would not impact investment on lines where services needed to be improved were wrong.

If the WRC never opens the Wesht is no worse off than before, but if existing Irish Rail service falls off a cliff the rest of us will be. Fr. McGreil and the rest of the Most Oppressed People Ever (Connaught Branch) should cancel their conferences and hope that the people who pay the bills don't come after them with flaming torches and pitchforks.

GREAT STUFF!

corktina

im not advocating a TGV, Im seeking to show why Rail will probably decline on complaetion of the motorway network.I contend you will only need a fairly small number of current passengers to defect to the car or express coach and the railways will lose all viability. To retain their passenger share , raiklways would need to demonstate superiority over road, something I fear they will not be able to do, given the corner they have been backed into by mis-guided people.

Sponge Bob

They did it to themselves to an extent . IR have spend year promising the people of Galway City a 2 hour run to Dublin. Signalling in the 1980s and CWR in the 1990s and Quad trackin in this decade were all peddled in Galway as 'take the pain because we will be able to get from Galway - Dublin in 2 hours . CIE were like the mythic draining of the the Dunkellin .

Things are no better now than they were in 1979 ....30 years ago ....save the greater frequency and nicer trains overall. Most Galway - Dublin services are still around 3 hours same as then.

Express coaches will murder them . Galway - Dublin by road was frequently 4 hours given the number of bottlenecks en route and by 2010 it will be more like 2 hours and a bit .

4 hours on a bus is awful but 2 hours and a bit is a completely different matter . Eyre Square to O Connell Bridge will be 2 hours by car ...leaving Eyre Square at 9am Mon - Fri and that is without breaking the speed limit. Athlone Bypass ( western end) to M50 is one hour nowadays no matter what time of the day ....maybe 1 hour 5 minutes on a friday evening .

Central Limerick - Dublin and Central Waterford - Dublin will be under 2 hours .

Central Limerick - Central Galway by car ( even with no motorway north of Gort) will be 1 hour and 10 mins save in the morning rush hour 8-30-9 when it will be 1.15-1.20 .

Rail is doomed , that much is sadly unavoidable . If we can save the Belfast and Cork main lines we will be doing well but to do so will require a lot of work on the permanent way and a €4bn interconnector project . Is it worth €5bn ???

corktina

will there be much left to Interconnect TO?
It looks serious alright.

Rawr

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Rail is doomed , that much is sadly unavoidable . If we can save the Belfast and Cork main lines we will be doing well but to do so will require a lot of work on the permanent way and a €4bn interconnector project . Is it worth €5bn ???

A sad possibility.

However, don't forget that the Interconnector has more to do with Commuter Rail traffic in the Greater Dublin Region, than Intercity. The DART and Commuter lines are heavily used still, and I don't imagine that they'll disappear any time soon. The Interconnector is still needed to clear traffic away from Connolly and the Loop Line.

I would like to see IE get their act together and make Intercity rail an attactive and affordable option.

bk

People should take a look at this crowd:
http://www.gobus.ie/

They operate non stop bus coaches Dublin to Galway for €10 one way.

They use new Volvo 9700 coaches which won the 2008 coach of the year award, with onboard toilets and free wifi.

Just wait till this or other coach companies with similar service expand to the new motorways on Cork to Dublin and Dublin to Belfast and IR will be in very serious trouble.

dereko1969

Rawr wrote: »

I would like to see IE get their act together and make Intercity rail an attactive and affordable option.

Pray tell how does one invest massively in rail and make it affordable? A significant increase in taxation for all (including those that will never use the service) in an economic climate where taxes are already rising?
I'm not sure that circle can be squared, and IE fares are reasonable certainly in comparison with the UK.

Stupido

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Rail is doomed , that much is sadly unavoidable . If we can save the Belfast and Cork main lines we will be doing well but to do so will require a lot of work on the permanent way and a €4bn interconnector project . Is it worth €5bn ???

I'm afraid I don't agree. You are forgetting a number of factors in writing the epitath of rail in Ireland

1) People like to travel by train. They prefer it to Buses. More comfortable
2) Time is not always to most important factor in deciding what mode of transport to take
3) Not everyone has a car, and many do not like driving for more than an hour
4) Cars cost money too. Petrol and tolls and parking in city centre etc
5) you will be able to get from M50 to Oranmore/Dunkettle in 2 or 3 hours, but centre to centre will take longer
6)Ireland needs all 3 forms of transport - road, rail and bus.


Irish rail does need to be overhauled. Look at Italy for example. Every year the government sets the fares, which are on a km basis..i.e. you pay a rate per kilometre. Fair system (it is the same for the motorways btw).

Don't come back and say Ireland cant sustain the same levels of public transport because of population blah blah. All you need to look at is levels of usage versus area versus service frequency versus areas served. Ireland can easily support a much expanded rail network, focused on the major urban areas of Dublin Belfast Cork Galway Limerick Waterford and Derry.

Unfortunatly the political will AND management are not there to sort it out!

Stupido

dereko1969 wrote: »

Pray tell how does one invest massively in rail and make it affordable? A significant increase in taxation for all (including those that will never use the service) in an economic climate where taxes are already rising?
I'm not sure that circle can be squared, and IE fares are reasonable certainly in comparison with the UK.

Simple realy!

Firstly, in all the arguements on road v rail, roads do not have to finance themselves. Rail projects do. Ever wonder why this is?

On a cost by cost basis, including maintanence, railways are far more economical than roads/motorways and more likely to give a dividend. This is why;

1) Cheaper to build. Land take for a railway is ONE THIRD to ONE QUARTER that of a standard single carraige way road. Add to that the cost of land purchase stands at 35% cost of building a new road and the savings over roads already are clear.

2) Construction of the physical infrastructure is far cheaper and less complex, and much can be prefabricated off site.

3) Manitanence is minimal compared to roads, whose surfaces need to be replaced on average every 8 - 15 years

If you take the money spent on the Dublin Cork motorway, and used it on High Speed Rail, such as they are doing in Spain, France and Italy, We could have financed TVG type lines from Dublin to Cork, Limerick, Galway and Belfast.


So.....to look at things objectively. Rail should only have to cover running costs and maintanance, just as the roads are expected to do.

That is how Rail is affordable.

bk

Stupido wrote: »

1) People like to travel by train. They prefer it to Buses. More comfortable

People prefer the train because buses use to be crap, the roads bad and very slow.

However the newest buses are really very nice and the new roads given a much more comfortable and quick ride.

So the gap is quickly shrinking, while buses become faster and are much cheaper. Not good for IR at all.

Remember we aren't saying that IR will lose 100% of their customers, but if they lose even 20% to improved bus and car then that would be very serious for IR.

Also IR hasn't helped themselves here as the new carriages are significantly bumpier and less comfortable then the old ones, genius.

Stupido wrote: »

5) you will be able to get from M50 to Oranmore/Dunkettle in 2 or 3 hours, but centre to centre will take longer

But that can actually be an advantage for car, most people don't live in a train station, so most people need to commute (bus, Luas, taxi, etc.) to and from a station, which ads to the cost and time of rail based travel.

Car is door to door and therefore often quicker and cheaper (of course there is a cost in petrol and tolls, but it is usually at least €20 cheaper then by train IME).

Stupido wrote: »

6)Ireland needs all 3 forms of transport - road, rail and bus.

I agree and that is why I'm making these points, to point out the dangers faced by IR, so they can do something about it. IR need to improve rail by:

1) Vastly improve travel time by renewing track and lifting speed restrictions, etc.
2) Making the carriages ride more comfortable (currently out to tender to be done)
3) Put free wifi in all carriages
4) Put power in all seats.

The last three are relatively low hanging fruit that allows IR play to the strengths of rail.

5) Make rail more affordable by bringing back the weekender pass.

Stupido wrote: »

Firstly, in all the arguements on road v rail, roads do not have to finance themselves. Rail projects do. Ever wonder why this is?

Actually many do via tolls and most of the MIU's have at least one and many have two tolls.

Stupido wrote: »

If you take the money spent on the Dublin Cork motorway, and used it on High Speed Rail, such as they are doing in Spain, France and Italy, We could have financed TVG type lines from Dublin to Cork, Limerick, Galway and Belfast.

The problem rail faces, for intercity transport, road tends to give you a greater return on your investment and better impact on the economy.

Roads are as much about making it cheap and easy to move goods around the country as people and this is very important for the economy.

Generally you can't mix both rail freight and high speed trains, it is usually one or the other and normally even if you build high speed rail, you still need a decent road network to carry goods and people to places not served by rail (see Germany for example).

For the most part, Ireland is simply too small to support high speed rail. Typically for high speed rail, it needs to connect two large cities over a long distance. Here rail only connects relatively small cities to one medium sized city over relatively short distances.