Western Rail Corridor

corktina

quote from bk

"Remember we aren't saying that IR will lose 100% of their customers, but if they lose even 20% to improved bus and car then that would be very serious for IR."

this is the important point....evry passenger lost has to be paid for by either the other passengers or through tax. every time the cost per passenger goes up, more passengers will be lost....

Sponge Bob

You are being very short sighted in telling the Ryanair generation that they cannot and will not suffer mild discomfort but only for 2 - 2.5 hours in to save quite a lot of cash .

Stupido wrote: »

I'm afraid I don't agree. You are forgetting a number of factors in writing the epitath of rail in Ireland

1) People like to travel by train. They prefer it to Buses. More comfortable

I am one of those people , I cannot justify from next year as it will cost twice as much and will be slower .

2) Time is not always to most important factor in deciding what mode of transport to take

Not always but high in the mix. The bus was guaranteed to be slower , Galway - Dublin in 2005 . Much slower on a friday evening . It is now level . It will be faster starting next year and thereafter .

3) Not everyone has a car, and many do not like driving for more than an hour

I know The 1 hour car argument is very weak TBH as it depends on the road and time of year . Anyway I said that the big problem is the Express Bus not the car

4) Cars cost money too. Petrol and tolls and parking in city centre etc

This argument is in full reverse now. The pricing of cars out of city centres is causing a lot of problems for retailers who pay rates that pay for Council employees in Cities. Expect parking charges to drop by years end if anything !

5) you will be able to get from M50 to Oranmore/Dunkettle in 2 or 3 hours, but centre to centre will take longer

There are Bus lanes for buses thereafter

serfboard

Sponge Bob wrote: »

You are being very short sighted in telling the Ryanair generation that they cannot and will not suffer mild discomfort but only for 2 - 2.5 hours in to save quite a lot of cash .

I am one of those people , I cannot justify from next year as it will cost twice as much and will be slower .

Not always but high in the mix. The bus was guaranteed to be slower , Galway - Dublin in 2005 . Much slower on a friday evening . It is now level . It will be faster starting next year and thereafter .

I know The 1 hour car argument is very weak TBH as it depends on the road and time of year . Anyway I said that the big problem is the Express Bus not the car

This argument is in full reverse now. The pricing of cars out of city centres is causing a lot of problems for retailers who pay rates that pay for Council employees in Cities. Expect parking charges to drop by years end if anything !

There are Bus lanes for buses thereafter

I agree with almost all the points raised by SpongeBob.

I recently travelled with GoBus.ie from Galway->Dublin. €10 non-stop took 2:45 (Vs €15 off-peak on the train taking 2:50). Got on the motorway at Athlone all the way, and on the bus lanes from Leixlip onwards. Very comfortable, with seats that reclined way back and with huge amounts of legroom (unlike some of those Bus Eireann ones - where the distances between the seats can be tiny and your knees are rammed up against the seat in front of you). Though there were only 10 people on the bus, this service has just started. Everyone coming off the bus complimented the driver on such a comfortable journey. Oh yeah, the bus also has a toilet and free wi-fi (though I didn't use either).

When Ballinasloe->Athlone and Leixlip->M50 are finished later this year, more time will be knocked off (possibly 2:30 - beating the pants off the train). The real blow will be when Galway->Ballinasloe opens next year - then it will beat the train in terms of time and be cheaper (with no penalty for using the service at peak times either).

Back on-topic, imagine what such a service would do to the WRC when Gort->Crusheen is finished? With Bus Lanes in Galway and Limerick, and the Limerick tunnel finished, you could have Galway->Limerick in 1:15 for €5. As against WRC taking how long and costing how much? The WRC (Galway->Limerick) is dead before it has even started. For the money that they've spent on it, Gort->Tuam could be well advanced by now.






Disclaimer: Neither I, nor anyone I know, works directly, or indirectly, for GoBus.

Chris_533976

Citylink go Limerick to Galway in 1h30 as it stands. It rivals the CAR at the moment due to bus lanes in Limerick and Galway. It'll beat the pants off the WRC.

However, the bus will be slightly slower than the car when the rest of the M18 is done.

Sponge Bob

serfboard wrote: »

Disclaimer: Neither I, nor anyone I know, works directly, or indirectly, for GoBus.

I must say the same , I do not work in or with transport but with network technologies . I have no pecuniary interest in the industry and nor do family etc . I am genuinely on the outside looking down .

Galway City Boundary to the Athlone bypass will be 70km of Motorway by summer 2010 . It is an hour from Athlone - M50 already.

I reckon about 2.15-2.30 by EXPRESS bus and still 2.50 on most trains .....same as 1979 and then you have to get a Luas to and from the Centre of Dublin don't forget that extra 10 mins either making it 3 hours each way by train city centre to city centre

All I can say is I told you so ( here last year ) ...I did not expect them in early 2009 though but another poster Marrmurr in that thread made a similar comment about Cork-Dublin and that with big sections of Motorway incomplete such as the long Cashel-Cullahill one at the time .

I travelled from Cork-Dublin by bus last week. The bus went non-stop except for a 10 minute stopover at Urlingford. It took only 3 hours 25 minutes from the centre of Cork to the centre of Dublin (O'Connell Bridge). That compares with a train time of 2 hours 50 minutes from Cork Kent Station (10 minutes walk even without heavy luggage from Cork city centre) to Dublin Heuston (15 minutes by bus or Luas to near O'Connell St).

When the motorways are complete, and genuine non-stop services, using coaches with on-board toilets, are introduced, then Irish Rail could be in serious trouble. The bus journeys will take approximately the same time but will be significantly cheaper. I've used buses a lot and there's definitely a demand for several non-stop services per day between Dublin and most of the main towns/cities.

Gobus even has free wi-fi internet for the passengers but that will be common soon .

Carawaystick

serfboard wrote: »

I recently travelled with GoBus.ie from Galway->Dublin. €10 non-stop took 2:45 (Vs €15 off-peak on the train taking 2:50).

I presume GoBus actually brought you to Dublin City centre too for your tenner and didn't try charge you an extra euro at heuston?

Jim Martin

The myth of High Speed Rail (HSR):

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/apr/29/high-speed-rail-travel-europe-uk

IIMII

Is it true that the WRC is going to become part of NAMA?

DWCommuter

IIMII wrote: »

Is it true that the WRC is going to become part of NAMA?

YES.

In fact I heard the Government was thinking of throwing in the entire West of Ireland as it has failed to deliver on its 50 years of grants, subsidisations and pity from the east. The only thing it has contributed is a decent venue for a stag night/piss up or a diddly doodle aye holiday for some bored Americans/German back packers. But of course try justifying the cost of TG4 to "real" programme makers that can actually attract an audience and the pump action will come out. I have one waiting right now!

The west is alive???? Eh no. The west is asleep and expects others to dream its dreams.

dermo88

Let us not be under any illusions. Economic depressions, and I now use that word in an Irish context invariably lead to a hard nosed analysis of CIE and Iarnrod Eireann. This has been avoided for close on 20 years, the last reform being the partial implementation of the 1981 McKinsey report which recommended breaking up CIE.

The breakup of CIE was done half heartedly.

To look to the future, we need to look at two previous reports on Irish Railways. The first is the 1957 Beddy report, and the rail network today broadly matches what was recommended in that report, save for the survival of Limerick to Ennis, and soon, Ennis to Athenry, the Nenagh branch, and instead of Mullingar to Athlone being closed, Portarlington to Athlone was recommended for closure.

The next report is Pacemaker, from 1963. Again, comissioned by Dr CS (Todd) Andrews. By that stage, the Mayo road was losing money. The profitable routes were Dublin to Belfast, Cork, Limerick, Galway, Tralee and Waterford.

So, what is under threat today.

I do not see Limerick-Nenagh-Ballybrophy surviving another 10 years. Limerick Junction to Waterford has a chance. Rosslare to Waterford is finished, make no doubt on that, it was never busy in terms of passenger traffic in the first place. The Ballina branch is touch and go in terms of its future, as is Gorey to Rosslare Harbour. In fact, I'd go as far as saying that the Rosslare line is not likely to survive if the cold light of financial analysis is made.

It is misguided to consider reopening regional routes until a clear effort is made to improve existing services.

The game from now will be about Commuter services. Some Intercity will survive, mainly the radial routes from Dublin. The Mayo and Sligo lines will only survive for political reasons, indeed that is the only reason they did survive, as I do recall the days when the track on the Sligo line in the early 1990's was in a terrifying condition.

The savings from the closure of minor routes however will be negligible. But Ireland, right now, faces an economic crisis of Argentine proportions. I would go as far as saying that the Government will have no choice in a few years but to privatise the whole lot. The likely scenario will be a huge 20% fare increase to try and bridge the revenue expenditure gap, which will lead to shorter, more frequent trains anyway. They might go faster, and I know for a fact that they are capable of slashing 20-30 minutes on several routes, with minimal expenditure.



And frankly speaking, I would have no objections whatsoever.

bk

dermo88 wrote: »

The likely scenario will be a huge 20% fare increase to try and bridge the revenue expenditure gap, which will lead to shorter, more frequent trains anyway.

Which is where intercity rail heads into a death spiral. 20% more and it be comes that much less competitive versus car and coach on the MIU's, plus don't forget the danger of flying.

serfboard

Just to let ye know, Noel Dempsey was on Galway Bay FM this morning and he said the feasibility study for Athenry->Claremorris is on-going with an anticipated opening in 2011.

And you know, I believed every word he said.

D'Peoples Voice

serfboard wrote: »

Just to let ye know, Noel Dempsey was on Galway Bay FM this morning and he said the feasibility study for Athenry->Claremorris is on-going with an anticipated opening of the feasibility study in 2011.

there, fixed that for you!

Judgement Day

"The game from now will be about Commuter services. Some Intercity will survive, mainly the radial routes from Dublin. The Mayo and Sligo lines will only survive for political reasons, indeed that is the only reason they did survive, as I do recall the days when the track on the Sligo line in the early 1990's was in a terrifying condition."

Dermo88 - please tell me of any inter-city service that is not on a radial route from Dublin?

The only reason any of the rail network survives is for political reasons - what other reasons are there?

The 1st McKinsey report highlighted that the heaviest losses occur on the busiest lines so it follows that Dublin/Cork is the heaviest loss maker and should be closed!

It is not the railway that should be shut down but CIE and the woeful Dept.of Transport.

corktina

OK then....Limerick to Waterford is inter City if you want to be pedantic, admittedly you have to change at the Junction...Similarly thus, Cork to Limeerick is inter City...

Judgement Day

corktina wrote: »

OK then....Limerick to Waterford is inter City if you want to be pedantic, admittedly you have to change at the Junction...Similarly thus, Cork to Limeerick is inter City...

Cork/Limerick may be a service linking to cities but it really is the Cork/Dublin inter-city service with a primitive connection at Limerick Junction provided by delightful 'commuter' railcars, ditto Limerick Jn/Rosslare Harbour. Even CIE/IE regard the remaining rail network as a radial network with the hub at Dublin. In their parlance all other lines such as Limerick/Claremorris and Limerick/Rosslare harbour are referred to as Tangental (?) routes and were all earmarked for closure long ago before political interference kicked in.

Chris_533976

Limerick Junction should not exist. The entire line should be rerouted to Limerick proper somehow. I say somehow because I have no idea how. In any case, Limerick junction is absolutely stupid.

Judgement Day

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Limerick Junction should not exist. The entire line should be rerouted to Limerick proper somehow. I say somehow because I have no idea how. In any case, Limerick junction is absolutely stupid.

This is a rather bizarre statement. Limerick Junction exists in its present location for historical reasons i.e. it is where the Waterford & Limerick Railway Company's line crossed the GSWR Dublin/Cork line. It still serves a useful function although it could do with being moved a mile or so north of its existing location and additional platforms and a direct curve to the Waterford line added. I understand that major trackwork renewal is intended at Limerick Junction shortly but given that it is CIE/IE involved it will probably be retrograde.

Victor

Um, off topic, but didn't Limerick Junction - Limerick pre-date the Waterford - Limerick Junction section, although I don't know what powers were used.

corktina

Judgement Day wrote: »

Cork/Limerick may be a service linking to cities but it really is the Cork/Dublin inter-city service with a primitive connection at Limerick Junction provided by delightful 'commuter' railcars, ditto Limerick Jn/Rosslare Harbour. Even CIE/IE regard the remaining rail network as a radial network with the hub at Dublin. In their parlance all other lines such as Limerick/Claremorris and Limerick/Rosslare harbour are referred to as Tangental (?) routes and were all earmarked for closure long ago before political interference kicked in.

say what you will, I still have you by the goolies....:cool:

Judgement Day

Victor wrote: »

Um, off topic, but didn't Limerick Junction - Limerick pre-date the Waterford - Limerick Junction section, although I don't know what powers were used.

Limerick/Tipperary opened 1848 and Dublin/Limerick Junction in 1849.

Judgement Day

corktina wrote: »

say what you will, I still have you by the goolies....:cool:

dermo88

Post 1808 on Page 121

Judgement Day:

Quote:
Originally Posted by corktina in reply to dermo88
An interesting read to say the least. I dont agree with ALL you say but basically I'm with you all the way on priorities in spending. If Rail is shown NOT to be the way to do it, then it should go. If , for instance, a better cheaper service could be had by express coach using the Motorways soon to be in place to the west, the north-west and the south-east , then so be it....

corktina stated then: The Cork-Dublin and Dublin-Belfast route and certain commuter services might prove to be the only bits left in a few years and Id rather see even these go than see services in Health and Education cut, and I'm most certainly not anti-rail.

Judgement Day stated "You really do talk a lot of tosh especially for someone who purports to be a railway enthusiast but I suppose that you can be an enthusiast without knowing anything at all about the topic! I am busy today but I'll be back to counter ALL your arguments in full"

Now you know why he said "I have you by the goolies". It is blatantly clear that after 3 or 4 days, you do not have the backup to counter any of his arguments. But thats fine, we can point out all the various problems, but if you want to bury your head in the ground, thats fine too.

Post 1845:

Judgement Day:

It is not the railway that should be shut down but CIE and the woeful Dept.of Transport.

Agree completely. More than likely privatisation will lead to it. Recession is the purgative that leads to reform and the trimming of waste. Unfortunately, the unrest, the upheaval is not going to be pleasant.

Perhaps we should be grateful that the system was renewed in the past 10 years. Even if it was inadequate, (and lets face it, with CIE around it never will be), its a heck of a lot better than it would be with any amount of UK rail enthusiasts making decisions on rolling stock.

Judgement Day

Ah - Thanks Dermo88 for pointing out what the goolies reference may have referred to as I genuinely did not get it. I have been involved in railways on and off for more than 30 years now - in all aspects - and am more than able to deal with Corktina but I have been distracted by more serious matters - the Magners League and impending Munster/Leinster clash tomorrow! It continues on Sunday with Cardiff/Leicester and a probably a serious hangover on Monday, so it will be a while yet before I get back at him.

Gruffalo

Judgement Day wrote: »

Ah - Thanks Dermo88 for pointing out what the goolies reference may have referred to as I genuinely did not get it. I have been involved in railways on and off for more than 30 years now - in all aspects - and am more than able to deal with Corktina but I have been distracted by more serious matters - the Magners League and impending Munster/Leinster clash tomorrow! It continues on Sunday with Cardiff/Leicester and a probably a serious hangover on Monday, so it will be a while yet before I get back at him.

Do the people of Diego Garcia align themselves with Leinster or Munster?

corktina

Judgement Day wrote: »

Limerick to Waterford? you choose to ignore these.? Whatever IE choose to call them, they are inter city servioces and are not radial from Dublin.
Sorry to have to explain,thanks dermo for trying to assist here. A bit like putting down shots at the distant signal isnt it...:D

...

Judgement Day

Gruffalo wrote: »

Do the people of Diego Garcia align themselves with Leinster or Munster?

This resident of DG is a serious Munster supporter for some years now but some of the natives of my sunny region have the cheek to support Leinster but they will grow silent as the final whistle draws near.

Corktina....say what you like but just because the railway runs between Limerick and Waterford does not mean that it is regarded as an inter-city route/service. That is unless you think a two-piece 27000/29000 commuter railcar constitutes an inter-city train? Don't mention Connolly/DG/Rosslare Harbour please!!!!

corktina

ah well then perhaps you should have said Inter-City rather than inter-city....

dowlingm

The Limerick-Waterford line has actually got loads of potential but would need incredibly flexible operation to properly support Limerick commuter, Limerick-Dublin, Clonmel-Dublin, Waterford commuter and the Limerick-Waterford through traffic but that means increasing line speeds and adding more passing track, building both the eastern Cork-Dublin platform and maybe an eastern bay at LJ. This sort of investment is beyond CIE and the flexible operation such as basing more personnel in Clonmel to start trains to Limerick and Waterford in the morning is beyond CIE's unions (as demonstrated by the inability to base trains in Co. Wicklow).

popebenny16

just to come in on the last few posts.

there is no such thing as a limerick/waterford line. you may as well call it the derry/tralee line. it is a fiction. how? pax numbers. now, please do not for one minute tell me the old build it and they will come guff - build what you like, you can have a frackin DART every 10 mins and they will not come. I could drive anyday to clonmel and i wont. why? i dont need to. no one does outside of a 20 mile radius, that that is the same for most towns and cities in the south east/midlands.

so forget limerick/waterford. look at waterford/clonmel

then clonmel/limerick jcn

limerick/limerick jcn

they can win on this as there is no motorway to compete and tailoring servives in these small areas will work.

there is no bloody point in selling a two hourly service twixt waterford and limerick as it realistically means one train in the rush hour in clonmel to connect with the Cork/Dublin train and anyway it wont get you to dublin before 8 30 so whats the bloody point anyway.

scrap the entire bloody timetable.

ask people, where are you going? at time do you want to go? when are you coming back?b

but then again, thats a culture change, innit???