Western Rail Corridor

road_high

And it's only going to less competitive in my opinion, with the interurbans finished I think rail could be hit hard.

westtip

mfitzy wrote: »

And it's only going to less competitive in my opinion, with the interurbans finished I think rail could be hit hard.

Not for journies into Dublin City Centre or probably Cork - cos of the congestion within the city, parking, etc. They will take more freight onto the road, but tolls and price of petrol could make them more competitive for single person car going into the City. EG I find travelling from the west it is still quicker to get to IFSC to drive to say Edgeworthstown and take a commuter train into Connolly - this is called sensible use of the railway system. However re what this thread is about the WRC - if the fabled Atlantic Corridor (n18) is finished the journey times between the towns (whoops sorry Cities) along the west coast such as Sligo - Galway will be much reduced in time - its the slowness of travelling through small towns which holds you up eg Sligo - Galway is only about 80 miles if this is DC or good quality road like the Knock bypass all the way you shoudl be able to do it within an hour and half and thats from your start point in sligo not from Sligo railway station - and guess what you can go anytime of the day - the train on the WRC will probably take about a two and half maybe three hours you will have to make your way to the station (say add half an hour), and you can only go according to the timetable (at most 4 trains a day) A Diesel rail car stopping in Colooney, Tubercurry, Charlestown, Swinford, Kiltimagh, Claremorris, Tuam, Athenry, Oranmore - and finally arriving in Galway - it may even involve changing in Athenry - Nine stops in an eighty mile journey - it simply won't compete with private motor car nor express buses; there can be no logistic argument to support it. But then I am forgetting it will be great for office parties at Christmas cos you can use the train that one day of the year to avoid DnD. Now go onto the West on Track you tube site and post up what you think:

http://www.youtube.com/user/westernrail - Let west on track know what you think.

Victor

flazio wrote: »

So what the consenus here is that Intercity doesn't work unless it's going to Dublin and commuter links don't work outside Dublin?

No, it works coming from Dublin also - I'm not being facetious. And it works for all the points in between as well. However, there are lots more people in the east and south that are without a rail service and supplying a service is feasible than people in the west and north west that are without a rail service and supplying a service is feasible.

D'Peoples Voice wrote: »

yeah, that doesn't quite sit right with this map
http://www.irishtimes.com/timeseye/whoweare/poster.htm

It will be interesting to see what this map looks like in the next Census - after this credit crisis:(

That map is rather dishonest and pretends that a large proportion of the population lives in the countryside - it even has the Aran Islands in its medium density category and people living up the Wicklow Mountains - a location so remote that a recent sale went for something like €137/acre. The reality is most people live in towns or rather within car driving distance of towns. The reality is that more people live in Swords than Leitrim and more live in Galway city than all of county Roscommon. Remember its people that count, not fields.

A more realistic presentation would be as shown in these two images. https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/2160/35786.GIF

Zoney

A map which shows why it's crazy that we do not yet have an M20, a reasonable Cork-Limerick train service, no Limerick-Galway service yet (and the prospect of a barely adequate one) and an as yet incomplete N18/M18. These transport links would greatly increase the usefulness of Shannon airport (particularly the road ones considering the lack of a rail link to Shannon), especially when combined with the Limerick Southern Ring Road and M7 Limerick-Nenagh. Galway and indeed Cork would both benefit from easier access to Shannon - it's a bit mad that it is more usual for people to travel to Dublin!

Schuhart

Zoney wrote: »

Galway and indeed Cork would both benefit from easier access to Shannon

Erm, given that Cork Airport now unambiguously serves more passengers than Shannon, is it not more the other way around? I don't doubt Limerick would benefit from easier access to Cork, and what Shannon ends up doing is really a matter for Darwin.

Zoney

Schuhart wrote: »

Erm, given that Cork Airport now unambiguously serves more passengers than Shannon, is it not more the other way around? I don't doubt Limerick would benefit from easier access to Cork, and what Shannon ends up doing is really a matter for Darwin.

Cork Airport is a less suitable location - it's not really remotely an option for Galway, and even for the Midwest area it's awkward due to Cork airport's location on the south side of the city. Cork also experiences problems frequently due to it's geographic location, whereas Shannon is far more suitable local geography for an airport. Cork Airport is more useful than Shannon for Cork and the Southeast, but not sufficiently so to preclude Shannon as another option for air travel from Cork (rather than just Dublin as another option). The completion of the Limerick Southern Ring Road will make quite a difference here.

With decent transport links, Shannon Airport should completely remove the need for airports like Knock or even the proposed Midlands airport (certainly south and west of the midlands should be able to get to Shannon more easily with new transport links). With an N21 and N22 sufficiently improved (2+2 dual carriageway all the way for example), Farranfore would even be fairly redundant due to shorter trip time to Shannon/Cork.

What Shannon does is a matter for the whole country - as everyone in the country is affected by how well Galway, the Midwest, etc. prosper or not (their contribution or cost to the state coffers being affected by their situation).

Personally I do believe that of far more importance than any further WRC opening (beyond Ennis-Athenry) would be to improve the Limerick-Galway line and link it to Shannon (although I would place various other rail projects around the country, particularly in Dublin, ahead of that in importance - although their relative costs would also affect which are done first).

invincibleirish

Shannon is and continues to be a white elephant Zoney. Cork airport has more passengers then Shannon in spite of its restrictions and the many, many incentives Shannon has received over the years.

Yeah we could spend 100s of millions linking Shannon to the WRC but that would be a waste of money diverting a little used rail line to an underused airport. Its had enough preferential treatment from the taxpayer.

Privatise Cork & Shannon airports and let them duke it out to be the main airport in Munster.

SeanW

Shannon Airport had a use back in the days of sea planes and short haul propellor aircraft. But ever since then it's needed punishing anti-Dublin and anti-Cork legislation, massive taxpayer subsidies and a bailout from the U.S. Military to remain "viable."
For example, before the "Shannon Stopover" days, airplanes were not allowed to fly between the U.S. and Dublin AT ALL. The pathetic "Shannon Stopover" act of aerial piracy was actually an improvement over the older rules!
A 2nd thing that happened was that Dublin Airport's infrastructure was deliberately underspecified in a pathetic attempt to force large aircraft to partially load/unload at Shannon - but it became common for large freight planes to use Manchester for this purpose.
Even today, Shannon is the only airport in the country that will be able to handle an Airbus A380 - Dublin will not even with the planned second runway.

That Cork airport now handles more passengers than Shannon - despite the abuse and neglect the former suffered - should say all that needs to be said about continuing a Shannon-focused policy.

For too long, this country has had a Shannon-dominated aviation policy - designed to promote Shannon at the expense of Dublin and Cork (both airports and indirectly, as cities). Now, Dublin and Cork cities aren't competing against some little town with an international airport in Clare, they're competing with Dubai and Copenhagen.

We thusly need, and have needed for some time, a policy that puts the main business and population centres first, as these may become Ireland's economic engine.

The first step is cutting Shannon Airport's umbilical cord - it was never a good idea to build the country's premier international airport in the middle of nowhere, but what's done is done - Shannon Airport now needs to sink or swim based on its own merits.

Zoney

I'd suggest people get a grip. I'm only advocating a Dublin/Shannon/Cork policy at the expense of the proliferation of small regional airports - pointing out that both the airport, and road and rail links between Cork, Limerick and Galway make sense if you look at the population map that Victor posted. The best hope of having a more viable distributed development of Ireland (rather further overburdening the east with development) is to work on those three hubs together as a compliment to Dublin (and I do accept that better links between them and Dublin was a priority first).

Also, being anti-Shannon just because of the historical disproportionate focus on the airport is no more sensible than advocating a new airport in Offaly. Shannon is clearly at least of comparable national importance as Cork airport. Also whining about Shannon's assets (from the supposition that they should have been in Cork or Dublin) is far less useful than focussing on ways to make the best use of the State's asset in Shannon airport.

invincibleirish

No offence Zoney but Shannon airport is THE reason that other minor airports throughout the country owe their existence to. Political patronage influencing our airports policy was pioneered by the Mid Wests politicians.

Should this influence the Airports future? perhaps not but you've demonstrated how spoiled the thinking can be by suggesting the WRC be re-aligned to serve Shannon town & airport -thats one small airport and one small town- that would be costly & pointless. Go to airports like Birmingham which serve large urban areas and have multiples of Shannons passenger traffic and which are on busy train lines and the train stations at these airports aren't that busy, so imagine how quite the train station at Shannon will be!.

As i say both Cork & Shannon should be privatised and let them sink or swim, they'll only remain in limbo as long as they are under the control of the DAA who have bigger fish to fry.

Schuhart

invincibleirish wrote: »

As i say both Cork & Shannon should be privatised and let them sink or swim, they'll only remain in limbo as long as they are under the control of the DAA who have bigger fish to fry.

+1

In the larger context, if we could unshackle Cork and drop the failed Western scattergun approach regional development, I think we'd find the alternative to everything going East would emerge quite naturally.

Victor

Zoney wrote: »

With decent transport links, Shannon Airport should completely remove the need for airports like Knock or even the proposed Midlands airport (certainly south and west of the midlands should be able to get to Shannon more easily with new transport links). With an N21 and N22 sufficiently improved (2+2 dual carriageway all the way for example), Farranfore would even be fairly redundant due to shorter trip time to Shannon/Cork.

Whatever benefits Shannon, benfits those other airports also.

Make the N21 a dual carriageway and it improves access to Farranfore.

westtip

Just re-reading the notes above re Shannon and trying to steer this thread back on subject - The Western Rail Corridor - I am now beginning to see the error of my ways - yes indeed. Dublin, Knock, Cork, Belfast (even), Wateford and every other landing strip in the country should be closed, vast motorways and high speed rail links should be built to Ireland International Airhub - the new rival for Schipol and Heathrow rolled into one - FKA Shannon - the new European Gateway with bullet trains to Ballyhaunis, Tubercury and other international finance metropolis's ................

Shannon is now a regional Ryanair hub.....face facts.

Oh ..I just woke up was it a dream or am I sitting on the old steamie going through Kiltimagh.

West on Track let them know your views - then register them on their you tube site at http://www.youtube.com/user/westernrail if they actually see what people think it might wake them up.

DWCommuter

Just had a look at the WOT youtube site. Apart from all the sci-fi videos, I was just wondering if they have the public liability insurance cover to go prancing about with their camera and mic all over CIE property and Claremorriss railway station. Being in the business myself, I happen to know that you need over 6 million euro public liability cover to shoot video footage on railway property. Judging by the very poor quality of the videos, I doubt their camera op is that organised.

Of course maybe they have the cover, but I have my reservations.

corktina

only three comments on there...all anti..

westtip

DWCommuter wrote: »

Just had a look at the WOT youtube site. Apart from all the sci-fi videos, I was just wondering if they have the public liability insurance cover to go prancing about with their camera and mic all over CIE property and Claremorriss railway station. Being in the business myself, I happen to know that you need over 6 million euro public liability cover to shoot video footage on railway property. Judging by the very poor quality of the videos, I doubt their camera op is that organised.

Of course maybe they have the cover, but I have my reservations.

DW did you make a comment on their website - they are not going to like it if folk post negative comments on you tube about them tee hee:D

Calling all others if you really do believe the Western Raile Corridor is a waste of money, not needed and is highly unlikely to happen then please visit the West on Track you tube site and post up your thoughts, cos they won't read them here!

http://www.youtube.com/user/westernrail - Let west on track know what you think

serfboard

westtip wrote: »

Calling all others if you really do believe the Western Raile Corridor is a waste of money, not needed and is highly unlikely to happen ...

Presumably you mean the section north of Athenry, as the section south of Athenry is opening this year.

corktina

serfboard wrote: »

Presumably you mean the section north of Athenry, as the section south of Athenry is opening this year.

we'll see.... shortage of stock and drivers i believe....

westtip

serfboard wrote: »

Presumably you mean the section north of Athenry, as the section south of Athenry is opening this year.

I really mean the Claremorris - Collooney section ie north of Claremorris although I cannot see Athenry - Tuam and then Tuam Claremorris happening - although this may actually make sense to give the fabled WRC a route from Ballina to Limerick. The freight rail head at Ballina might (and it has to be a might big might) prove of some worth in the future.

http://www.youtube.com/user/westernrail - Let west on track know what you think

westtip

corktina wrote: »

we'll see.... shortage of stock and drivers i believe....

errr....and meaningful numbers of paying passenger although I have no doubt the 65+ will make the numbers up just to use it to show the Govt it works..however none of them will be fare paying. I would guess this (if it happens) will be the least used bit of railway track in the entire country, and it should well and truly p***s off the people of Navan and Kells...

http://www.youtube.com/user/westernrail - Let west on track know what you think

DWCommuter

westtip wrote: »

DW did you make a comment on their website - they are not going to like it if folk post negative comments on you tube about them tee hee:D

Calling all others if you really do believe the Western Raile Corridor is a waste of money, not needed and is highly unlikely to happen then please visit the West on Track you tube site and post up your thoughts, cos they won't read them here!

http://www.youtube.com/user/westernrail - Let west on track know what you think

Im sorry, but I have absolutely no intention of posting a comment on a youtube page thats getting virtually no hits. Furthermore WOT know my opinion and have known it since 2004. On their web site they only feature positive media articles. They never once featued any negative media material. I quite sure that if they were monitoring their youtube site, all negative comments would be deleted. They aren't visiting it and neither is anyone else. If you feel strongly about it, I suggest you email them everyday for the rest of the year. But be warned, they are like a cult and Im not joking.

road_high

Why can't the "West of Ireland have its' pound of flesh". Give me strength

Victor

westtip wrote: »

FKA Shannon - the new European Gateway with bullet trains to Ballyhaunis, Tubercury and other international finance metropolis's ................

Shannon is now a regional Ryanair hub.....face facts.

But so are Farranfore and Cork - and Farranfore even has a railway station. http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/dests.php (you may need to OK the download).

crocro

New ESRI report comments on the WRC

esri wrote:

Similarly, not all planned infrastructure projects were good projects to start with and some should certainly be abandoned. The Western Rail Corridor which is supposed to act primarily as an inter city rail link along the western seaboard connects urban centres with relatively small populations and runs through sparsely populated areas. As such the potential ridership is very limited and in the context where few rail lines internationally are profitable, investment in this project will need to be supported by further substantial subventions of tax payer’s money.

esri wrote:

In that context this project has been questioned by many economists.

http://www.esri.ie/UserFiles/publications/20090519092749/WP298.pdf

westtip

DWCommuter wrote: »

Im sorry, but I have absolutely no intention of posting a comment on a youtube page thats getting virtually no hits. Furthermore WOT know my opinion and have known it since 2004. On their web site they only feature positive media articles. They never once featued any negative media material. I quite sure that if they were monitoring their youtube site, all negative comments would be deleted. They aren't visiting it and neither is anyone else. If you feel strongly about it, I suggest you email them everyday for the rest of the year. But be warned, they are like a cult and Im not joking.

DW - you are probably right - banging my head against a wall and I agree they are like a cult movement - they will wake up one day cos you me and the dogs on the street know the whole thing won't happen - and yes you are right about the lack of hits on their You Tube website, probably shows the actual lack of interest in the whole thing even here in the west - where if you gave people the option - a full DC or high quality road from Sligo to Galway/Limerick with the Shannon Tunnel bypassing Limerick city etc - aka the Atlantic Corridor - pretty sure 99% would choose this. I have had some pretty patronising emails from them (WOT), but it's good to keep other views in front of them on a pretty constant level and make sure they are aware that their views are not the only ones. - Makes no difference really because I have had very positive correspondence with Minister O'Cuiv on this matter plus others at cabinet level - and thats where it matters!

dowlingm

There's plenty of blame to go around in re: Shannon but most of it hinges on the fact that the town of Shannon and the city of Limerick don't provide sufficient catchment.

Whether you think it was a Milton Keynes-like planned town failure or housing Northern refugees there in the 70s or epic fail by Clare County Council/GAA jersey pulling with Limerick City/County, it is amazing how a locality with an international airport with aviation agreements written to guarantee them business, a development authority and a free trade zone could not thrive.

If Clare Co. Co. were serious people, they would have acquired land to create a a fast segregated alignment between Clarecastle, Shannon and Cratloe and said to IE and the government - we have the land, we'll build the stations, you lay the rail and provide the stock for bidirectional service. Unfortunately the county councils are run by halfwits and/or favoured sons waiting to inherit their father's Dail seat and bereft of rates unable to spend even if they had an idea, which suits the central civil service.

DWCommuter

dowlingm wrote: »

Unfortunately the county councils are run by halfwits and/or favoured sons waiting to inherit their father's Dail seat and bereft of rates unable to spend even if they had an idea, which suits the central civil service.

Spot on. Everyone should remember this when the CC wannabes knock on your door pre election. Or do as I did tonight. A certain gobdaw county councillor came to my door. He didn't knock. He just pushed the leaflet through the letterbox. I pushed it back out as I was ready to open the door and engage. He left it there, so I opened the door and told him to pick up his litter from my porch. It was very satisfying watching him bend down and pick it up. This story is on topic because my last discussion with him was filled with how he thought the WRC was a brilliant idea and much needed, while his local and proven rail stations are devoid of basic facilities. Next time I'll make him eat the ****ing flyer.:D

westtip

DWCommuter wrote: »

But be warned, they are like a cult and Im not joking.

DW - they are getting very shirty about any negative comments on their you tube site; clearly they don't like it! The message may get through - but a letter in the Western People last week got prominence as the lead letter - and outlined the issue O'Cuiv mentioned at the May 1st WRC conference - why not make it a cycling trail they won't like this kind of publicity in the local rag. - Good one on your CC's the flabby white boys are out in force in the west as well.

westtip

DWCommuter wrote: »

. I quite sure that if they were monitoring their youtube site, all negative comments would be deleted. But be warned, they are like a cult and Im not joking.

DW yes they have now deleted all comments against the WRC on their you tube account and they got they shirty about it all - they clearly are thought fascists! They can't live with the truth - after the section from Ennis to Athenry is opened this whole project will be quietly strangled and put to the sword, when the numbers using the service will simply not justify extending to Tuam and then Claremorris. This parrot is most definitely dead!

DWCommuter

westtip wrote: »

DW yes they have now deleted all comments against the WRC on their you tube account and they got they shirty about it all - they clearly are thought fascists! They can't live with the truth - after the section from Ennis to Athenry is opened this whole project will be quietly strangled and put to the sword, when the numbers using the service will simply not justify extending to Tuam and then Claremorris. This parrot is most definitely dead!

As I predicted so. I've been here before with them.

Their methods are akin to facism. Unfortunetly they are not the only lobby like that. RUI have started to behave in a similar manner since the start of the year. However I'd say the reasons are different. WOT aren't about creating little hitlers. They are purely and simply about creating positive spin and avoiding any debate about the issue whatsoever. Their web site permits no public interaction. Their conferences are carefully staged "rallies" with hand picked speakers and no debate. Their youtube site was the first attempt at any kind of organised public forum. I reckon they will lock responses from now on. All of this is a planned attempt to prevent any negativity from attaching itself to their fantasy rail project that has defied economists and many pro rail people. In all fairness, this kind of carry on just makes them look like a bunch of delusional gombeens. But with respect they aren't. They are quite entitled to campaign for the WRC. However they have entered the campaign with two problems.

1. They display too much of a sense of entitlement.

2. They have their engineering, planning and economic arguments, arse about tit.

Bless them. They are at least, entertaining.