Western Rail Corridor

westtip

DWCommuter wrote: »

As I predicted so. I've been here before with them.

They are quite entitled to campaign for the WRC. However they have entered the campaign with two problems.

1. They display too much of a sense of entitlement.

2. They have their engineering, planning and economic arguments, arse about tit.

Bless them. They are at least, entertaining.

Made me laugh this morning anyway - yes really they are not worth opposing as they will do enough damage to themselves with their own arguments - armchair economists counting traffic on the N18 etc and mythical figures using the bus between Sligo and Galway, its actually quite pathetic. You are right about their sense of "entitlement" - nobody elses views matter they are right and that is - their reaction to any challenge to them is akin to babies pram and toys- and clearly now the toys have been thrown out the pram and they are having a rant....However they are blocking use of the railway line for the public good as a cycleway/footpath - because they have taken on the attitude that it is only WOT who can say what happens to the lineage - they will get a rude awakening when the NDP is reviewed, when the Ennis Galway line does not deliver reasonable passenger numbers; and when the Cabinet finally stands up to them and says sorry folks the dream is over...await for tantrums from the angry baby with his rattle on the floor.

DWCommuter

westtip wrote: »

Made me laugh this morning anyway - yes really they are not worth opposing as they will do enough damage to themselves with their own arguments - armchair economists counting traffic on the N18 etc and mythical figures using the bus between Sligo and Galway, its actually quite pathetic. You are right about their sense of "entitlement" - nobody elses views matter they are right and that is - their reaction to any challenge to them is akin to babies pram and toys- and clearly now the toys have been thrown out the pram and they are having a rant....However they are blocking use of the railway line for the public good as a cycleway/footpath - because they have taken on the attitude that it is only WOT who can say what happens to the lineage - they will get a rude awakening when the NDP is reviewed, when the Ennis Galway line does not deliver reasonable passenger numbers; and when the Cabinet finally stands up to them and says sorry folks the dream is over...await for tantrums from the angry baby with his rattle on the floor.

The track between Athenry and Colooney has to come up anyway. Leaving it bwteen Claremorris and Colooney was always only symbolism. Im confident you will get a cycle path.

westtip

DWCommuter wrote: »

The track between Athenry and Colooney has to come up anyway. Leaving it bwteen Claremorris and Colooney was always only symbolism. Im confident you will get a cycle path.

I know exactly what you mean about symbolism - which is what the great unwashed don't understand, there are actually people out there who really do believe it is a matter of clearing a few weeds and letting the trains roll - The McCann report was pretty clear about "section 4" the last 47 miles of the light railway built in 1890s between claremorris and collooney which will require lifting and a new foundation put in, and not forgetting the small matter of some 290 level crossings in a route 47 miles long! Can you imagine how many times trains will come to a halt due to livestock on the line! - I think if I remember rightly this last phase was going to cost 4.3 million a mile (on 2005 prices) compared with 2.1 million a mile (on 2005 prices) for Ennis/Athenry which has a much stonger bedrock foundation and less level crossings. With no start date even evisaged until 2014 (I think not - more likely 30 years hence) for section 4 nearly ten years after the McCann report the likely costs per mile will have nearly doubled, and the public finances could well be in a worst state than they are now (possible yes I am afraid) all in all it truly is a dead duck - i look forward to cycling the length of this track in a few years time, theres a good piece in the Sligo Champion about this this week - when I get time I will post it up - and it does not give the usual western journo we must have it cos its in the west vitriol.

yachtsman

It looks like this argument is over. Paschal Mooney, the Fianna Fail EP canditate announced this evening on Galway Bay FM, "with the full authority of Minister Noel Dempsey, Minister for Transport, I can confirm that the WRC will open to Tuam in 2011 and Claremorris in 2015". He added that recent unsourced comments attributed to an Iarnrod Eireann spokesman in the Connaught Tribune that the extension north of Athenry would depend on the success of Phase One "were wrong" and that "the Government made investment decisions not civil servants".

It looks like game set and match to the local community on this one. And before you say FG will be in power before then, I can say that Jim Higgins FG was in total support as were all aspiring canditates interviewed. Thats consensus for ye.

I think the real message of the Minister in Claremorris at the Western Development Conference was directed at CIE not to mess up the first phase or it will be they will pay pay the price rather than the communities down here. Would'nt it be refreshing to see the private bus companies given the chance to operate trains.

Lets applaud all concerned and not fall into the trap of fighting with each other over the crumbs while other parts of the country unite in sucking in billions into their infrastructural investment.

Zebra3

And there was the PAC on tv ealier lambasting government waste from when the country was doing well..... :rolleyes:

Schuhart

yachtsman wrote: »

Lets applaud all concerned and not fall into the trap of fighting with each other over the crumbs while other parts of the country unite in sucking in billions into their infrastructural investment.

The WRC involves more than crumbs. The capital investment is far from peanuts. The required annual subsidy will put a significant strain on transport resources and deny services to people who would actually use them.

Judgement Day

Schuhart wrote: »

The WRC involves more than crumbs. The capital investment is far from peanuts. The required annual subsidy will put a significant strain on transport resources and deny services to people who would actually use them.

I doubt the annual subsidy will prove too much of a strain when services are withdrawn after a few months.

SeanW

Yachtsman: it seems you're in favour of the Western Rail Corridor. Fair enough. But tell me this - which do you think the people of the West could really use more - a very slow, indirect, 3 times-a-day service between some really small towns and villages to a smattering of large towns and small cities:
Remember that the Northern part of the group of railways now called the "Western Rail Corridor" were built to Light Railway standards - frequent level crossings, steep inclines and sharp curves - which means the 3 trains a day won't be going any faster than 50MPH.

OR

would the people of the West consider X amount of €€€s be better spent a new package of road projects for the West? Such as for example an acceleration of the M17?

Keep in mind that the development patterns in the West (scattergun, lots of one-off housing) do not lend themselves well to large scale (i.e. railway) public transport, so at best, the Limerick-Sligo WRC will be another Limerick-Ballybrophy or Limerick-Rosslare.

The West quite simply is not full of burgeoning metropolii, and the WRC plan cannot deliver anything of value to Western people - the main justification seems to be "Dublin gets everything." There is no logical basis for the Western Rail "Corridor." It doesn't make sense from any logical perspective.

Therefore Yachtsman, I would advise you to advise your Western neighbors (if you live out there) to question whether the WRC makes sense, if not to get rid of the silly East-versus-West aspect, to question the WRC as opposed to other uses of transport fundint WITHIN the West!

L1011

yachtsman wrote: »

Would'nt it be refreshing to see the private bus companies given the chance to operate trains.

When they can run their buses faster and serving more population centres on the roads, I can't see them being insane enough to use a Victorian standard railway.

DWCommuter

MYOB wrote: »

When they can run their buses faster and serving more population centres on the roads, I can't see them being insane enough to use a Victorian standard railway.

He's nothing more than a West on Track plant or a troll lads. Ignore him. These issues have been addressed before.

Sponge Bob

yachtsman wrote: »

It looks like this argument is over. Paschal Mooney, the Fianna Fail EP canditate announced this evening on Galway Bay FM, "with the full authority of Minister Noel Dempsey, Minister for Transport, I can confirm that the WRC will open to Tuam in 2011 and Claremorris in 2015".

Pascal Mooney was an expert on Irish Country and Western music when RTE saw fit to transmit regular programs of that tripe. I happily forgot all about him until FF dug up and ran the Pascal thing for Europe . I would sooner vote for Ganley who is a Barry Manilow beeatch .

Lets applaud all concerned and not fall into the trap of fighting with each other over the crumbs while other parts of the country unite in sucking in billions into their infrastructural investment.

NOBODY is getting ANYTHING . There IS NO MONEY !!!

corktina

thats true sponge bob....all we can hope to see is the already started and committed to projects proceed (probably at a slower rate)

This FG guy in wherever it is in the west (cant be bothered to read that tripe again to find out) is a CANDIDATE who will say and promise ANYTHING to get elected.

Come on Yachtsman, be specific and tell us...what would be better for the west, the WRC or the N17 Atlantic corridor road?

Calina

Okay.

Knock off the messing or more infractions and/or bans will ensue. No personal abuse - if you think someone is trolling either report the post or don't engage them. Most of you have been around long enough to know that not controlling your ire doesn't usually result in a win for you.

westtip

yachtsman wrote: »

It looks like this argument is over. Paschal Mooney, the Fianna Fail EP canditate announced this evening on Galway Bay FM, "with the full authority of Minister Noel Dempsey, Minister for Transport, I can confirm that the WRC will open to Tuam in 2011 and Claremorris in 2015". He added that recent unsourced comments attributed to an Iarnrod Eireann spokesman in the Connaught Tribune that the extension north of Athenry would depend on the success of Phase One "were wrong" and that "the Government made investment decisions not civil servants".

So how about this from Minister Dempsey:

“In September 2006 we in Government made a decision in principle to support funding for the development of Phase 2 of the Corridor between Athenry and Tuam. This approval is subject to completion by Iarnród Éireann of a fuller appraisal of this section. Iarnród Éireann is planning to conduct further studies in 2009 to ascertain more reliable costings for Phases 2 and 3. I understand that they will also be looking at usage of Phase 1 after its opening, and at its effect on overall patronage of public transport in the area. The timescales for the delivery of Phases 2 and 3 are under review in the light of the capital allocation available to the Department of Transport.”

Noel Dempsey Minister for Transport – May 1st extract from speech to West on Track Conference: http://www.transport.ie/speech.aspx?Id=11 Well his statement wouldn't exactly fill me with confidence if I was planning to take a train from either Tuam or Claremorris to Galway in the next decade!


And from Minister O’Cuiv at the same conference:-
“I would like to take the opportunity to pose a question and that is should we use the section of the railway line north of Claremorris as a walkway and cycleway while it is not open as railway? The Claremorris to Collooney stretch of the railway line will not start before 2014 and its use as a walkway and cycleway would solve a lot of encroachment issues in the meantime. It is something for us to think about.”
Eamon O’Cuiv – Minister for Rural Affairs - who said much more in his speech which again, seems to say this is a non runner.
http://www.westontrack.com/conference/minister_o_cuiv.doc - for full speech

Now – we hear on our airways that a wannabe MEP says it’s all going to be done before 2014 – Can we please have a reality check!!! And as ever on these boards – trawl for all the positive statements about every project under the sun that are strangely uttered by wannabe TDs, MEPs and Councillors on airwaves. If we believed what was said in the run up to every election we would have nothing left to write about on these boards! So Yachtsman: The phrase buyer (voter) beware comes to mind!

Noel Dempsey and Eamon O'Cuiv were pretty clear in what they said on May 1st (clear that is if you can read through the fairly obvious subplot in their speeches) - and it is also clear the Government is looking for a gettout clause on the WRC (hardly surprising as the project is pretty ill conceived), if they use IE as the get out clause then so be it - so please look at what ND said again "This approval is subject to completion by Iarnród Éireann of a fuller appraisal of this section".-

It actually shows weak leadership if they are going to scrap the whole thing and simply say well IE said it wouldn't work and they are the rail operators - they should be able to stand up to pressure groups like West on Track and say - listen lads its all very interesting but isn't going to happen for the following reasons: economics, demographics, need, priorities and now we have not money etc (all been well argued on this thread before), and its not a matter of East v West or anything like that - its all about governance and making decisions based on fact and not wishful thinking. There are far greater transport and infrastuctural priorities in the west than opening up a railway line that will actually be used by a tiny minority of people in the west - a line which closed and will remain closed for very logical reasons, Face facts!

Chris_533976

I love all this crap. Regardless of whether the lines will be successful, there will now be extra training coming from Limerick/Ennis. There may also be trains coming from Tuam. A new station at Oranmore.

Ok lets cram all these trains, including the Galway/Dublin services, along single track from Athenry to Galway. Its a disaster, and I cant believe noone else has noticed it.

If all this WRC comes to fruition (lets hope it doesnt), then FFS Athenry to Galway needs to be dual tracked.

Nostradamus

westtip wrote: »

So how about this from Minister Dempsey:

“In September 2006 we in Government made a decision in principle to support funding for the development of Phase 2 of the Corridor between Athenry and Tuam. This approval is subject to completion by Iarnród Éireann of a fuller appraisal of this section. Iarnród Éireann is planning to conduct further studies in 2009 to ascertain more reliable costings for Phases 2 and 3. I understand that they will also be looking at usage of Phase 1 after its opening, and at its effect on overall patronage of public transport in the area. The timescales for the delivery of Phases 2 and 3 are under review in the light of the capital allocation available to the Department of Transport.”

Noel Dempsey Minister for Transport – May 1st extract from speech to West on Track Conference: http://www.transport.ie/speech.aspx?Id=11 Well his statement wouldn't exactly fill me with confidence if I was planning to take a train from either Tuam or Claremorris to Galway in the next decade!


And from Minister O’Cuiv at the same conference:-
“I would like to take the opportunity to pose a question and that is should we use the section of the railway line north of Claremorris as a walkway and cycleway while it is not open as railway? The Claremorris to Collooney stretch of the railway line will not start before 2014 and its use as a walkway and cycleway would solve a lot of encroachment issues in the meantime. It is something for us to think about.”
Eamon O’Cuiv – Minister for Rural Affairs - who said much more in his speech which again, seems to say this is a non runner.
http://www.westontrack.com/conference/minister_o_cuiv.doc - for full speech

Now – we hear on our airways that a wannabe MEP says it’s all going to be done before 2014 – Can we please have a reality check!!! And as ever on these boards – trawl for all the positive statements about every project under the sun that are strangely uttered by wannabe TDs, MEPs and Councillors on airwaves. If we believed what was said in the run up to every election we would have nothing left to write about on these boards! So Yachtsman: The phrase buyer (voter) beware comes to mind!

Noel Dempsey and Eamon O'Cuiv were pretty clear in what they said on May 1st (clear that is if you can read through the fairly obvious subplot in their speeches) - and it is also clear the Government is looking for a gettout clause on the WRC (hardly surprising as the project is pretty ill conceived), if they use IE as the get out clause then so be it - so please look at what ND said again "This approval is subject to completion by Iarnród Éireann of a fuller appraisal of this section".-

It actually shows weak leadership if they are going to scrap the whole thing and simply say well IE said it wouldn't work and they are the rail operators - they should be able to stand up to pressure groups like West on Track and say - listen lads its all very interesting but isn't going to happen for the following reasons: economics, demographics, need, priorities and now we have not money etc (all been well argued on this thread before), and its not a matter of East v West or anything like that - its all about governance and making decisions based on fact and not wishful thinking. There are far greater transport and infrastuctural priorities in the west than opening up a railway line that will actually be used by a tiny minority of people in the west - a line which closed and will remain closed for very logical reasons, Face facts!

Top post. Yes indeed. Actually living here in the West, rather than indulging in a Messianic quest using a OS Map and biro from the empathy frontlines of Dundrum and Bury-Saint-Edmonds, I meet, nor have have met no more than 5 people who actually gave a toss about the Western Rail Corridor.

I would love to know who the screaming in terror, railway deprived suffering hundreds of thousands that West on Track cult followers constantly have visions of while flagelating themselves with their Civil Services pension levy handbook.

serfboard

Nostradamus wrote: »

I would love to know who the screaming in terror, railway deprived suffering hundreds of thousands that West on Track cult followers constantly have visions of while flagelating themselves with their Civil Services pension levy handbook.

I would love to know too. AFAIR there was something about them having a petition signed by squillions of people? I've never met anyone who signed one of those, mind.

As has been said before West-On-Track was really only interested in getting the train as far as Claremorris. They actually couldn't give a damn about Ennis-Athenry, or even Athenry-Tuam, except in the case of the latter, if it was to lead on to going to Claremorris. I suspect they're not even that bothered about the train north of Claremorris either.

To the easterners: As regards perceived Weshtern whinging - there are plenty of people in the West who either don't care about or don't support WOT - I think contributions to this forum would be evidence of that.

To westerners: How about it people? How about a pressure group - Westerners Against West-On-Track?

And just to show that I'm not anti-things - if you take Eamonn O'Cuiv's proposal a little further - I think a cycleway/walkway along the whole route from Athenry to Sligo would be a brilliant idea, and a fantastic tourist attraction. A sort of Camino de Santiago, which brings a load of tourists to northern Spain. People could walk it to raise funds for charity, hotels and B&Bs along the route would benefit ...

In fact, there's an example of this in Dungarvan where the old track has been replaced by a cycle/walkway in what is a perfect model for this kind of development.

westtip

Nostradamus wrote: »

Top post. Yes indeed. Actually living here in the West, rather than indulging in a Messianic quest using a OS Map and biro from the empathy frontlines of Dundrum and Bury-Saint-Edmonds, I meet, nor have have met no more than 5 people who actually gave a toss about the Western Rail Corridor.

.

Yes indeedy – and thank you – I thought it just about summed it up!

serfboard wrote: »

And just to show that I'm not anti-things - if you take Eamonn O'Cuiv's proposal a little further - I think a cycleway/walkway along the whole route from Athenry to Sligo would be a brilliant idea, and a fantastic tourist attraction. A sort of Camino de Santiago, which brings a load of tourists to northern Spain. People could walk it to raise funds for charity, hotels and B&Bs along the route would benefit ...

In fact, there's an example of this in Dungarvan where the old track has been replaced by a cycle/walkway in what is a perfect model for this kind of development.

Good to hear the Dungarvan project has happened, I read about it sometime ago. There is huge tourism potential in this area of walking/cycling infrastructure development. Mr. O’Cuiv had clearly been reading these boards to get his idea!

Sustrans (www.sustrans.org.uk ) – the UK sustainable transport charity is probably the best reference point for such a project. 12,000 miles of cycleways have been opened in the UK in the past ten years, about 10% of which have been on disused rail lines. Sustrans has give the name “Greenways” to these long distance cycling and footpaths, or linear parks – and they are a tremendous success.

Sustrans have made costings of a variety of projects available on a special website – http://www.sustransconnect2.org.uk/resources/guidelines%206.pdf . For anyone with an interest in what is achievable on our old railway network I would highly recommend viewing the .pdf file on this website, scroll through section 6 types of Greenway - it will make everyone wake up about what can be done - and for relatively little cost
In particular look at some of the examples where Greenways have been built adjacent to the existing railways with a fence running between the two to divide them off for safety reasons. Then look at the West on Track website and look at how much space there is on the WRC where work is taking place – such a greenway could actually be placed adjacent to the line running from Athenry to Ennis – now that would be a tourist attraction – the driver of the empty trains could wave and blow his horn to all the walkers and cyclists using this route for real tourism leisure activity.

Rawr

I also feel that 'Greenways' are an excellent idea for our disused railways.

'The Burma Road' would make one hell-of-a good cycle, with plenty to see on the way. The old stations and other CIE properties along this and other routes could be converted for Cyclist/tourist use. Added to that, the fact the most of these routes would probably begin or terminate at a live station, making access a simple affair.

I'm very pro-rail myself, and I would love to see as many of the old lines reopened as possible. But realistically, that is not always viable. Greenways would make proper use of this CIE property I feel, and would have the important dual-perpose of protecting the allignment from encroachment. We may need those lines in future, even if we don't need them now.

Sponge Bob

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Ok lets cram all these trains, including the Galway/Dublin services, along single track from Athenry to Galway. Its a disaster, and I cant believe noone else has noticed it.

Of course it was noticed. It's just that CIE then said it would cost €180m to dual track from Galway to Athenry in order to kill the idea off .

Judgement Day

Declan Ganley of Libertas says we need the Western Rail Corridor. Hot from Newstalk - "The Right Hook" - 5 minutes ago!

Gruffalo

Rawr wrote: »

I also feel that 'Greenways' are an excellent idea for our disused railways.

'The Burma Road' would make one hell-of-a good cycle, with plenty to see on the way. The old stations and other CIE properties along this and other routes could be converted for Cyclist/tourist use. Added to that, the fact the most of these routes would probably begin or terminate at a live station, making access a simple affair.

I'm very pro-rail myself, and I would love to see as many of the old lines reopened as possible. But realistically, that is not always viable. Greenways would make proper use of this CIE property I feel, and would have the important dual-perpose of protecting the allignment from encroachment. We may need those lines in future, even if we don't need them now.

Good Post.

I think that the topic of greenways and cycling tourism would make a good thread in its own right, if you care to start one.

westtip

Judgement Day wrote: »

Declan Ganley of Libertas says we need the Western Rail Corridor. Hot from Newstalk - "The Right Hook" - 5 minutes ago!

Well obviously it's going to happen then!

flazio

While I'm not a full supporter of the West On Track initiative, far from it actually, but I would say that infrastructure spending on roads and road vehicles alone is surely not going to be sufficient for expansion transporting all goods services and people of any area of the West of Ireland, especially Galway. There's only so much showing off your new company cars that this area can take.

Poxyshamrock

Passed some of the WRC towns today and I must say the parts of the track, stations and level crossings that I saw actually look really good especially around Ardrahan.

And as for it not being used I already know about 8 people who will be using it weekly.
All of needs is promoting and it'll work.

Schuhart

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

All of needs is promoting and it'll work.

If it will work, all it needs is publicity, which it has had already in bucketloads.

I'm afraid 'promotion' is another of these words that litter regional development debate. Basically, it gets chucked in any time a white elephant is pointed to.

So when the WRC turns out to be a non-event, apologists will say 'sure it was never properly promoted', as if sufficient advertising would make people forget that the service is generally less advantageous than road.

Of course, it will even required a degree of struggle to even get that far in the discussion, as passenger numbers will simply be reported over a long enough timescale to make them look big. As in, "at present rates of growth, the WRC will have carried one million passengers by 2020, thus confounding the naysayers".

Judgement Day

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

Passed some of the WRC towns today and I must say the parts of the track, stations and level crossings that I saw actually look really good especially around Ardrahan.

And as for it not being used I already know about 8 people who will be using it weekly.
All of needs is promoting and it'll work.

Eight passengers weekly, that sounds about right but is it worth reopening the line for them - wouldn't buying a car for each of them be cheaper.

BluntGuy

Judgement Day wrote: »

Eight passengers weekly, that sounds about right but is it worth reopening the line for them - wouldn't buying a car for each of them be cheaper.

Shouldn't really be laughing as it's such a tremendous mis-use of money... but your post made me laugh out loud.

Poxyshamrock

Judgement Day wrote: »

Eight passengers weekly, that sounds about right but is it worth reopening the line for them - wouldn't buying a car for each of them be cheaper.

Don't act the muppet, it's going from two of Ireland's biggest cities and it has another one of Ireland's biggest towns on the route too.


I was merely stating the people I know who'll use it...as in my close group of friends.

There's gonna be other students using it, tourists, people going on shopping trips, commuters and people just going about their business etc.

If you see the amount of packed buses that leave Limerick each day for Galway surely it's evident that alot of people will use the line.

BluntGuy

Maybe I'm being a bit lazy by not searching through the thread, so this may have been mentioned already...

Has there been any kind of real survey done to see how many people would actually use the service - rather than just random guesswork or convenient figures pulled out of the air/someone's ass.

I honestly would like to know, because to me (and a lot of people) it seems the service is going to be incredibly under-used to the point of the being, well, pointless.

What kind of frequencies are going to be offered? How many services a day will be operated?

Is there anywhere I can find this out (where the information isn't polluted by biased agendas)?