Western Rail Corridor

Amtmann

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

Don't act the muppet, it's going from two of Ireland's biggest cities and it has another one of Ireland's biggest towns on the route too.

'Cos our cities are so big...

If you see the amount of packed buses that leave Limerick each day for Galway surely it's evident that alot of people will use the line.

It is not evident at all. Go on: how many people will use it every day so?

BluntGuy

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

If you see the amount of packed buses that leave Limerick each day for Galway surely it's evident that alot of people will use the line.

This has probably been posted before:

http://www.transport21.ie/Publications/upload/File/Limerick-Galway_Socio-Economic_CBA.PDF

Even the official cost-benefit analysis states that the project is basically unviable:

It is assumed the average time saving will be 10 minutes up to 2012 and will reduce to 5 minutes thereafter to reflect the completion of the N18 upgrade...

That's a joke.

The investment yields a negative NPV result of -€137m over a 30 year period...

It is clear from this that the main justification for the development relates to regional development.

Well that's one way of putting it.

I don't even know how this thread got so long. There is virtually no debate to be had on this issue! Money thrown at a project for the sake of it without any consideration as to how it could've been better used.

And if the cost-benefit analysis for Phase 1 is this poor - I dread to think of how awful it'll be for the subsequent phases.

westtip

BluntGuy wrote: »

I don't even know how this thread got so long. There is virtually no debate to be had on this issue! Money thrown at a project for the sake of it without any consideration as to how it could've been better used.

.

Not sure I agree with no debate - I think the majority of writers on this thread have put coherent arguments against the WRC - for rationale reasons - I don't want to quote myself but go back to the lengthy post I made two or three pages back which spelt out the political truth about where this project is going - yes the line from Ennis/Athenry/Galway is happening - but read what the two govt ministers (Dempsey and O'Cuiv said on May 1st WRC conference in Claremorris), north of Athenry this project is dead, north of Claremorris it is the stuff of pure fantasy. West on Track started campaigning for this mythical "corridor" back in 2003 - when we all lived in fairy tale land believing that stamp duty on the sale of apartments and 3 bedroom semi housing estates would continue to fill the coffers of the states wallet for ever. This all (rather predictably) came to an end - West on Track hoped to catch the gravy train and argued this (WRC) was essential for the west - truth is - it isn't and it won't happen - but lets keep the "debate" alive and kicking - at least every post telling the truth may (just may) make the lunatic fringe of "west gets nothing militants" will begin to see just how forlorn their hopes are!

Judgement Day

Apologies for 'acting the muppet' but I feel the whole WRC debacle should be seen for what it is. Believe it or not I want to see the WRC retained and would have supported its reopening in a rational way - indeed it should never have been closed - but spending millions on it and solely providing and unattractive commuter passenger service on it is a bad joke.

The only freight traffic being toted for the completed route is diverted container traffic from Ballina - that's hardly justification for reopening.

In the last couple of years the Government has allowed CIE/IE to spend hundreds of millions on new trains that are designed to carry passengers only - what madness is that? Imagine opening any new business and designing it to turn away income from day one - only on a direly run state operated monopoly could this happen. It reminds me of the story about how in communist countries people were employed to pick up litter on the tracks and others were employed to empty it back along on the tracks - CIE/IE are not far removed from that. :mad:

www.irishrailways.blogspot.com

Zoney

I don't really agree that it *is* a débacle. For all the lobbying of WOT, and lip service of politicians, people should be under no illusion about the northern WRC remaining as it is. Even a Tuam commuter service looks unlikely even in the short/medium term.

And I do not agree that Ennis-Athenry isn't a worthwhile endeavour - even if the initial service will not be fantastic - it will still be better than Bus Éireann from day 1, and there is every likelihood that Ennis-Limerick will see further investment in the future (improving any Limerick-Galway service) as will Athenry-Galway eventually.

There is a fair argument that other rail services should perhaps have had priority - but the substantial fact is that they were down the list because they required a lot more investment. Even looking to the midwest; improving Cork-Limerick services would be problematic because there isn't much scope for meddling with Dublin-Cork or Limerick-Dublin services (both far more important) and more investment would be needed to allow separate services between Limerick and Cork. Besides which, Limerick-Galway has Ennis in between, something that Limerick-Cork doesn't have (Charleville and Mallow together aren't even half the population of Ennis). It's unsurprising for that this same reason (and Shannon) the N18 is dualled to Ennis already while the N20 is only dualled to the N21 split.

Ken Griffin

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

Don't act the muppet, it's going from two of Ireland's biggest cities and it has another one of Ireland's biggest towns on the route too.

So has the Limerick-Waterford line. :eek:

invincibleirish

Zoney wrote: »

And I do not agree that Ennis-Athenry isn't a worthwhile endeavour - even if the initial service will not be fantastic - it will still be better than Bus Éireann from day 1, and there is every likelihood that Ennis-Limerick will see further investment in the future (improving any Limerick-Galway service) as will Athenry-Galway eventually.

Once the N18 is finished Galway-Limerick will be a lot quicker by car & bus. Rail will be slower & more expensive. Remember that magic figure from earlier in the thread 600? that was the ridership for a whole day over 10 services in the boom times, between *massive* Ennis & Limerick, expect similarly low numbers from Adrahan, Crusheen & the other metropolis' on the line. Its had more investment then it deserved. No more.

Zoney wrote: »

There is a fair argument that other rail services should perhaps have had priority - but the substantial fact is that they were down the list because they required a lot more investment. Even looking to the midwest; improving Cork-Limerick services would be problematic because there isn't much scope for meddling with Dublin-Cork or Limerick-Dublin services (both far more important) and more investment would be needed to allow separate services between Limerick and Cork. Besides which, Limerick-Galway has Ennis in between, something that Limerick-Cork doesn't have (Charleville and Mallow together aren't even half the population of Ennis). It's unsurprising for that this same reason (and Shannon) the N18 is dualled to Ennis already while the N20 is only dualled to the N21 split.

Perhaps instead of wasting money on the WRC the mid west could have made steps to develop the commuter rail opportunities around Limerick, or even better opened up some bus lanes around limerick & invested in extra buses, that would have done far, far more for the commuters & people of Limerick then this poxy line will.

very apt you mention Shannon, the WRC is in the same league of political patronage, someday the West will get its act together and realise that landing useless white elephant infrastructure in the open countryside is pointless and a waste of our valuable resources.

Victor

invincibleirish wrote: »

Once the N18 is finished Galway-Limerick will be a lot quicker by car & bus.

That depands on how quickly you can get through the suburbs.

Chris_533976

Bus will be quicker as both Limerick and Galway now have extensive bus lanes along the jam-up points in the suburbs. Due to this, Citylink is (seriously) rivaling the car for speed during peak times.

Zoney

Whatever about Citylink, Bus Éireann still have to detour into Ennis, Shannon and Bunratty, slowing things down a lot. Also the motorway will either mean further for them to travel (and they can't do 120 km/h) or else using the old road still. Even for Citylink, despite the bus lanes, traffic is an issue at peak times.

I'm in favour of the investment we've had in our road network (goat tracks weren't exactly appropriate and DCs were necessary for safety and speed if not capacity), but solely relying on road transport is futile.

maninasia

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

Don't act the muppet, it's going from two of Ireland's biggest cities and it has another one of Ireland's biggest towns on the route too.


I was merely stating the people I know who'll use it...as in my close group of friends.

There's gonna be other students using it, tourists, people going on shopping trips, commuters and people just going about their business etc.

If you see the amount of packed buses that leave Limerick each day for Galway surely it's evident that alot of people will use the line.

Depends on cost...it would have to be heavily subsidised to beat a bus.

maninasia

Gruffalo wrote: »

Good Post.

I think that the topic of greenways and cycling tourism would make a good thread in its own right, if you care to start one.

This is the way to make cycleways big in Ireland. Get a bunch of hotel owners, adventure operators, B&B owners, local councillors etc and bring them to countries in Europe and Asia that have cycleways all over the countryside. Show them how much MONEY there is in it and the development of cycleways will all be driven locally....... I have seen the development of cycleways in countryside areas of foreign countries and it is just waiting to happen in Ireland right now!

Ham'nd'egger

Judgement Day wrote: »

The only freight traffic being toted for the completed route is diverted container traffic from Ballina - that's hardly justification for reopening.

The Norfolk Liner has gone from one train a week of 8 to 10 containers a train when re-introduced in January 2006 to 4-5 trains a week of up to 20 containers per movement; this market has grown massively since it was reinstated. There are also about 8-10 trains of timber from Ballina and Westport a week; both the timber and container trains (And other freight paths) used to be moved on the WRC in the mid 1990's. Not to say that these trains will stay this heavy in the coming year or two but suffice to say there is a reasonable level of traffic from Mayo with growth on the container looking far more likely that loss.

Victor

http://www.sustransconnect2.org.uk/resources/guidelines%206.pdf

westtip

maninasia wrote: »

This is the way to make cycleways big in Ireland. Get a bunch of hotel owners, adventure operators, B&B owners, local councillors etc and bring them to countries in Europe and Asia that have cycleways all over the countryside. Show them how much MONEY there is in it and the development of cycleways will all be driven locally....... I have seen the development of cycleways in countryside areas of foreign countries and it is just waiting to happen in Ireland right now!

The WRC is such an obvious contender for this treatment; but WOT just don't see it - the reality is the walking/cycling tourism potential of the WRC will bring far more benefit to the region than a slow train service running at most three trains a day in each direction - I'm just surprised the chambers of commerce along the route, bord failte etc - who all pupport to be fans of the WRC haven't seen just how obvious it is. Problem is West on Track actually believe they have moral ownership of what should be done with the track alignment, and sometimes I think they have real ownership of the line - its about time someone stood up to them and explained there is more than one way to make use of this old railway line, and for the benefit of the community.

Just look at this link to see the potential: http://www.sustransconnect2.org.uk/r...elines%206.pdf and try a few of these to see the potential of this idea:

- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNl2LfuD6iQ this one is really great it shows how much people enjoy these railway walks – and it shows them SPENDING MONEY!!! Eating out as a group after a long “railway walk” now that’s what I call walking tourism!!!

Also this link takes you to more information on this particular walk (Rosedale Railway walk) - http://www.nymcam.co.uk/032100.htm Just imagine how An Bord Failte could market a railway walking.cycling holiday in Ireland, or how the Burma Road on the WRC coudl be promoted!

Few more links along the same theme

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Railway-Walks-Abandoned-Gloucestershire-Oxfordshire/dp/1873877617

http://www.juliabradbury.com/railways.html - this is about the BBC programme on the old lines in England used this way - you can buy the DVD of this programme at http://www.juliabradbury.com/walks_dvds.html

and a bit more information about this programme http://www.locatetv.com/tv/railway-walks/5805372

somebody somewhere might just realise what could be done with the WRC - and other such routes in Ireland if they would just wake up and smell the roses.

Judgement Day

Hamndegger wrote: »

The Norfolk Liner has gone from one train a week of 8 to 10 containers a train when re-introduced in January 2006 to 4-5 trains a week of up to 20 containers per movement; this market has grown massively since it was reinstated. There are also about 8-10 trains of timber from Ballina and Westport a week; both the timber and container trains (And other freight paths) used to be moved on the WRC in the mid 1990's. Not to say that these trains will stay this heavy in the coming year or two but suffice to say there is a reasonable level of traffic from Mayo with growth on the container looking far more likely that loss.

So we should let the same bunch of morons (CIE/IE) who ran the existing WRC into the ground reopen it to carry freight traffic that they diverted away from it in the first place. Imagine a private company going to the bank for a loan to rebuild a business that they had deliberately run into the ground previously?

PS westtip Why not convert the whole Irish railway network into cycleways and footpaths?

westtip

Judgement Day wrote: »

PS westtip Why not convert the whole Irish railway network into cycleways and footpaths?

Don't even think I would support this one! It will make no difference who operates any re-opened WRC it will lose money hand over fist - re your suggestion see no reason why a path/cycleway couldn't run alongside the entire mainline services outside the greater Dublin area (due to room mainly in that area), look at the sustrans link re greenways - actually it would be a great complementary use of the railway routes and would be a great tourist attraction! Bring it on!

road_high

Hamndegger wrote: »

The Norfolk Liner has gone from one train a week of 8 to 10 containers a train when re-introduced in January 2006 to 4-5 trains a week of up to 20 containers per movement; this market has grown massively since it was reinstated. There are also about 8-10 trains of timber from Ballina and Westport a week; both the timber and container trains (And other freight paths) used to be moved on the WRC in the mid 1990's. Not to say that these trains will stay this heavy in the coming year or two but suffice to say there is a reasonable level of traffic from Mayo with growth on the container looking far more likely that loss.

Where in mayo are all these containers coming from? I can't think of any big industry that would be moving goods in this manner to Waterford port?

I see a few of these trains passing throught the Kilkenny countryside from time to time. CIE provide the enginer and Norfolk pay a fee for using it, is that the arrangement? 'Cos I understood CIE got out of Freight back 3 or 4 years ago completely?

Judgement Day

mfitzy wrote: »

Where in mayo are all these containers coming from? I can't think of any big industry that would be moving goods in this manner to Waterford port?

I see a few of these trains passing throught the Kilkenny countryside from time to time. CIE provide the enginer and Norfolk pay a fee for using it, is that the arrangement? 'Cos I understood CIE got out of Freight back 3 or 4 years ago completely?

Isn't it the Coca Cola plant in Ballina? Anyway, in answer to your other question - CIE/IE have been trying to get out of running railways since 1945 and while 'they not there yet they are surely getting there'! Almost every freight yard is gone, the gantries to load/unload trains, wagons, locos to haul them scrapped - if only the few remaining pesky customers would give up or go out of business like NET/IFI and Irish Sugar Co. so obligingly did.

www.irishrailways.blogspot.com

yachtsman

Don't forget it was the Westontrackers who identified the potential of container trains from mayo to waterford - everybody laughed - so they went and secured the traffic to prove their point, as cie were shutting down container trains from sligo, mayo, galway, limerick, cork and belfast to dublin. Not many would have bet on their chances of success and they always claim to have done so in order to prove the demand for mayo to waterford freight trains. In fairness they had to run them via kildare to date as the wrc is'nt open yet. I think subscribers are being a bit hard on them. Call me a plant if you like but I'm giving my opinion. Maybe the railways should be for long distance freight rather than passengers seeing as the passenger services only bearly compete with the bus.:rolleyes:

Ham'nd'egger

mfitzy wrote: »

Where in mayo are all these containers coming from? I can't think of any big industry that would be moving goods in this manner to Waterford port?

I see a few of these trains passing throught the Kilkenny countryside from time to time. CIE provide the enginer and Norfolk pay a fee for using it, is that the arrangement? 'Cos I understood CIE got out of Freight back 3 or 4 years ago completely?

Norfolk Lines (Now called Maresk) run a freight container ship from Waterford to Rotterdam and have been a rail freight customer all over Europe. The containers are truck delivered from private businesses to Ballina and then carried via rail rather than via road on multiple trucks at the expense of Norfolk. The advantage of an operation like this is that companies whom may only need one container delivered abroad can utilize Norfolk as the carrier worldwide; Norfolk bearing the fiscal loss if the train runs empty; Irish rail providing the engine, infrastructure and wagons.

The issue with freight is that railways can't cross subsidise freight so it has to run as a stand alone business on the account sheet. Most freight can't be moved practically by rail given both small loads or distances; that said, road has been crowned King a long time ago for the good market and the powers that be in CIE are well aware of it.

westtip

Hamndegger wrote: »

Norfolk Lines (Now called Maresk) run a freight container ship from Waterford to Rotterdam and have been a rail freight customer all over Europe. The containers are truck delivered from private businesses to Ballina and then carried via rail rather than via road on multiple trucks at the expense of Norfolk. .

Maybe there could be an argument for a freight line from Ballina - Claremorris - and so on - which effectively makes the WRC a Ballina - Limerick corridor (and lets just forget about the ill fated collooney line), personally I can't see it - but I am not a freight expert; I think there is little doubt amongst many of us that the concept of a "commuter line" or cross country passenger line really does not wash in terms of passenger numbers or potential passenger numbers despite all the attempted brain washing of WOT. I would still advocate a "greenway" running alongside the track running down the west, and of course the same for the claremorris/Collooney section - of course the real problem is

---

err there is no money for it all!!!!

Ham'nd'egger

westtip wrote: »

Maybe there could be an argument for a freight line from Ballina - Claremorris - and so on - which effectively makes the WRC a Ballina - Limerick corridor (and lets just forget about the ill fated collooney line), personally I can't see it - but I am not a freight expert; I think there is little doubt amongst many of us that the concept of a "commuter line" or cross country passenger line really does not wash in terms of passenger numbers or potential passenger numbers despite all the attempted brain washing of WOT. I would still advocate a "greenway" running alongside the track running down the west, and of course the same for the claremorris/Collooney section - of course the real problem is

---

err there is no money for it all!!!!

Maybe there could if it is worthwhile for all concerned to get mega tons of freight moved from A to B quickly and cheaper than road can do it and for Irish Rail to make money. For that to happen, you will need everybody on board and it hasn't looked that way this long time....

westtip

yachtsman wrote: »

Don't forget it was the Westontrackers who identified the potential of container trains from mayo to waterford - everybody laughed - so they went and secured the traffic to prove their point, as cie were shutting down container trains from sligo, mayo, galway, limerick, cork and belfast to dublin. Not many would have bet on their chances of success and they always claim to have done so in order to prove the demand for mayo to waterford freight trains. In fairness they had to run them via kildare to date as the wrc is'nt open yet. I think subscribers are being a bit hard on them. Call me a plant if you like but I'm giving my opinion. Maybe the railways should be for long distance freight rather than passengers seeing as the passenger services only bearly compete with the bus.:rolleyes:

Yachtsman - it doesn't matter if you are a "plant" from WestonTrack - WOT should be contributing to this debate and not ignoring the debate about the WRC - I think their usual tact is if you oppose the WRC for any reason you are labelled an anti-west demon - as they (WOT) and only they are entitled to a view - perhaps you are right and the only real argument for the whole WRC project is based on freight; Whilst WOT have to some degree talked about freight, they have focussed a great deal on the mythical passenger numbers they see using this line - which are pretty pie in the sky projections, if a rationale argument can be put in place for freight to go on the line then I for one would support the idea - but I just cannot see it - so if you are a plant go back to WOT and show us the numbers again. Just how many 40 foot containers do the trip from Mayo to Waterford docks each month? and could they realistically be switched to rail?

bk

yachtsman wrote: »

Maybe the railways should be for long distance freight rather than passengers seeing as the passenger services only bearly compete with the bus

But the problem is there really isn't really any long distance train lines in Ireland, Ireland is just too small an Island, even if Cork and Belfast were a continuous line you still wouldn't be able to call it long distance.

When people talk about long distance rail freight, they are usually talking about pulling freight across Europe, the US (coast to coast), Canada, etc. There rail freight makes a lot of sense.

In Ireland, which is such a small country, with now a pretty decent road network and no place more then a few hours away, rail freight just can't compete.

westtip

Hamndegger wrote: »

Maybe there could if it is worthwhile for all concerned to get mega tons of freight moved from A to B quickly and cheaper than road can do it and for Irish Rail to make money. For that to happen, you will need everybody on board and it hasn't looked that way this long time....

Well I dunno about the WRC, I was passing Ballina freight yard this morning they were busy loading up a timber train - which can get to Waterford in non peak times via the existing rail network, without routing through Dublin, then I can see no justification whatever on the freight argument for reinstating the WRC into Mayo as far as freight needs are concerned -and with the passenger number forecasts a myth - I am more convinced than ever it will be a complete waste of money.

http://www.irishrail.ie/home/maps/intercity_map.asp - I had completely forgotten about the route to Waterford that already exists from Mayo for freight. So any WOT supporters out there pray tell me what is the freight argument for WRC again???

IIMII

Think I've said it before but I'll say it again.

I really hate this thread.

pointofnoreturn

IIMII wrote: »

Think I've said it before but I'll say it again.

I really hate this thread.

I do too, some people really hate the idea of WRC, and some people are just too interested in it!

Like tell me know, if the WRC shouldn't happen then WTF should??

invincibleirish

Thread is a point for all those local folk who dream of huge motorways, railways & airports for their villages and towns being reminded by the crushing reality that their little part of the world is insignificant and only gombeen man politicians can realise their fantasies.

IIMII

pointofnoreturn wrote: »

Like tell me know, if the WRC shouldn't happen then WTF should??

Well, what is it that you want whatever happens to do?