Western Rail Corridor

Chris_533976

Theres a ton of roadside spam from the WRC lobby appeared along the N18. MASSIVE posters with "Congratulations to the government" plastered all over them.

IIMII

It's some game they are playing.

When the Government blows cold, WOT ignore it and blitz everywhere thanking the Govt / Minsters / TDs for their support and praising them.

No slipping quietly from this one.. You have to hand it to them, they are very effective

You gotta understand that they are maintaining public expectation, wheras the Govt every now and again try to limit it. The net effect is that the Govt is being dragged along by the common belief amongst the public that it is happening.

It's using the political promises against the politicians in a positive way. Highly ingenious! And effective

crocro

pointofnoreturn wrote: »

Like tell me know, if the WRC shouldn't happen then WTF should??

If you were going to spend 300 mil on sustainable transport in the west, you might look at cycle tracks, bus lanes, better bus service, pedestrianisation and other ways to improve the walkability of these towns. You would change the development plans to promote building in a pattern that could be supported by public transport, cycling and walking and you would discourage car dependent developments.

You would not run infrequent short empty trains through open countryside because that would be stupid.

westtip

invincibleirish wrote: »

Thread is a point for all those local folk who dream of huge motorways, railways & airports for their villages and towns being reminded by the crushing reality that their little part of the world is insignificant and only gombeen man politicians can realise their fantasies.

Hey mate please don't include me in that category - I live in the west and think the WRC is a joke ...... agree with you about the quality of gombeen man politicians - or as I have got my children calling them - the flabby white boys.

westtip

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Theres a ton of roadside spam from the WRC lobby appeared along the N18. MASSIVE posters with "Congratulations to the government" plastered all over them.

Think we should start notifying the local authorities to see if they have planning permission for these notices.....you do need it you know - would love to see enforcement notices put out to WOT to remove all this S H one T from the highways.

invincibleirish

westtip wrote: »

Hey mate please don't include me in that category - I live in the west and think the WRC is a joke ...... agree with you about the quality of gombeen man politicians - or as I have got my children calling them - the flabby white boys.

Ah i'm not aiming it at every rural person, i'm in the sticks myself and hear plenty of what i mention from local talking heads & pols, its pie in the sky stuff from some not all.

D'Peoples Voice

pointofnoreturn wrote:

Like tell me know, if the WRC shouldn't happen then WTF should??

Quite simple really, the west will never be able to support labour intensive industries as it doesn't have the population and never will. Even Dublin only gets the crumbs that fall from London & Frankfurt's table in terms of finance.

Hence the west needs to specialise in tourism.
Mayo, Sligo and South Donegal have some of the best beaches in the country, along with some really fantastic coastal towns that could become massive tourist attractions if marketed correctly.
So first of all they need access to HIGH populated areas - thats means Belfast, Greater Dublin Area and Cork on a national scale. BUT, Cork already has its own beaches/coastal towns both in Cork and Kerry, so Corkonians are unlikely to go to Mayo, Sligo and Donegal.

Hence, that leaves Belfast and Greater Dublin Area.The main road to the East is the N4 & N5, bringing these roads up to Dual carriageway standard from Longford town should be able to be done for under EUR 600m - given that in many places no land needs to be compulsory purchased.

Then you facilities, you need proper water-related infrastructure be they dive schools, facilities on the beach, proper piers, marinas for mooring boats, hell there are so many other activities, pointless going into now, but at the minute almost all of these are underfunded.

We have hotel/B+B, these need to be regulated, and a proper look at supply and demand so that standards can be kept quite high while prices are competitive. The Government should look at helping to fund improvements in this area, we have already seen how leisure centres in hotels can benefit both the local people and guests.

More links golf courses in these areas would not go astray, and again organised so that there is a good supply demand balance.

Its only when you go on some of the 3-4 hour treks around the National Park in Wicklow(Glendalough etc) do you get to see what a fantasic amenity it is. The West has walks of equal if not better but they are not sectioned off, it requires you to have to cross some private land in many cases, maybe there is a way to get to Benbulbin without going through private land,I just couldn't find it because - signposts, yes the West are dreadful are signposts, even worse than In Oldcastle in Meath and I'm not exaggerating.

Broadband, surely spending some of the millions that will be wasted subsidising the WRC can be put to better use improving the broadband in the area. Access to such a basic facility may help certain niche companies situate in the area. For example, I know of someone that is doing customer support from their home, and they can access their slave PC in head office over the internet. Companies should be encouraged to look at such development to keep rents in urban areas low and help rural areas be sustainable.

I'd say all these things could be delivered in the West for the same cost as the WRC, but I know which the Goveernment will do, because its an easier sell, even more so when the people in the West are screaming for this

L1011

Upgrading the extremely sub-standard R roads that serve Connemara wouldn't cost anywhere near 600M and would have huge financial benefits for the area; Mayo has a far better road network than Galway as is but there are many ways cash could be spent there.

Judgement Day

Yeah, let's hurtle on down the road - literally - like there's no tomorrow. No peak oil, no shortage of oil and cheap, cheap oil into the future! The USA was at this game in the 1950's - isn't it time Ireland copped itself on?

Schuhart

Judgement Day wrote: »

Yeah, let's hurtle on down the road - literally - like there's no tomorrow. No peak oil, no shortage of oil and cheap, cheap oil into the future! The USA was at this game in the 1950's - isn't it time Ireland copped itself on?

All of these are very good reasons to stop people building one-off houses in any random field, and flushing there toilets into Lough Corrib.

But the damage is done, and I don't see how our demand for oil is reduced by running empty diesel railcars up and down the West.

Judgement Day

I agree with you but almost every opponent of the WRC suggests spending more money on roads as a good alternative. The one thing that can be said about the reconstruction of the WRC is that, once done, it will not be allowed to return to nature for a second time even if this means removing it from the dead hand of CIE/IE control!

L1011

You sure about that? Irish Rail have reopened lines and re-closed them before. Ballinacourty comes to mind.

Also, peak oil affects low capacity FOSSIL FUEL powered trains just as much as it affects running a bus on roads. The WRC will not be electric.

IIMII

Judgement Day wrote: »

I agree with you but almost every opponent of the WRC suggests spending more money on roads as a good alternative.

But why isn't it? Ok, one off housing needs to change. But.... if I were living in Mayo I'd be looking to get to work or college in Galway as quickly as possible, by car or bus (because thats where the passenger volumes marry with decent frequency service). Even if you don't want better roads for cars, what about buses?

Judgement Day

MYOB wrote: »

You sure about that? Irish Rail have reopened lines and re-closed them before. Ballinacourty comes to mind.

Also, peak oil affects low capacity FOSSIL FUEL powered trains just as much as it affects running a bus on roads. The WRC will not be electric.

Ballinacourty is not a good example as it was reopened as a freight only line - cheaply - for a specific traffic to and from Quigley Magnesite and when the plant closed the line was shut and lifted.

Yes peak oil affects fossil fuel powered trains but it does not follow that the WRC would have to be operated by same in the longer term. Battery powered trains or other electrically powered trains would be possible - but not if CIE/IE are at the helm. The only hope for the future of Ireland's railways is the scrapping of CIE/IE as soon as we develop a Govt./Minister for Transport with some balls.

Ham'nd'egger

westtip wrote: »

Well I dunno about the WRC, I was passing Ballina freight yard this morning they were busy loading up a timber train - which can get to Waterford in non peak times via the existing rail network, without routing through Dublin, then I can see no justification whatever on the freight argument for reinstating the WRC into Mayo as far as freight needs are concerned -and with the passenger number forecasts a myth - I am more convinced than ever it will be a complete waste of money.

http://www.irishrail.ie/home/maps/intercity_map.asp - I had completely forgotten about the route to Waterford that already exists from Mayo for freight. So any WOT supporters out there pray tell me what is the freight argument for WRC again???

In this instance, there is some justification in moving this traffic onto the quieter WRC as trains currently have to stop to allow the loco to change ends on both trips; this practice blocks train paths at Kildare Station for long periods in both directions. While the loco would still need to change ends in Limerick, this would be done away from the main running lines into Limerick where it won't block other train movements; drivers could also change here easily which was the done thing until the WRC closed in the mid 1990's. There was one recent incident at Kildare when a loco on a timber train broke down at Kildare; the line was blocked for about 90 minutes and severe delays resulted for all services to and from Heuston as a result.

L1011

Judgement Day wrote: »

Ballinacourty is not a good example as it was reopened as a freight only line - cheaply - for a specific traffic to and from Quigley Magnesite and when the plant closed the line was shut and lifted.

Yes peak oil affects fossil fuel powered trains but it does not follow that the WRC would have to be operated by same in the longer term. Battery powered trains or other electrically powered trains would be possible - but not if CIE/IE are at the helm. The only hope for the future of Ireland's railways is the scrapping of CIE/IE as soon as we develop a Govt./Minister for Transport with some balls.

Its still an example - the WRC is being reopened "cheaply" (at huge costs, but cheap implementation) - same bouncy, windy alignment, etc.

And battery powered trains will have advantages over battery powered buses, how?

Peak oil to justify reopening a rural railway line is a pathetic argument.

Judgement Day

Yes, but left to the whims of CIE/IE there is no long term future for timber,or for that matter, Norfolk Lines/Maresk traffic. Where then the WRC?

Judgement Day

MYOB wrote: »

Its still an example - the WRC is being reopened "cheaply" (at huge costs, but cheap implementation) - same bouncy, windy alignment, etc.

And battery powered trains will have advantages over battery powered buses, how?

Peak oil to justify reopening a rural railway line is a pathetic argument.

Point by point.

1. What on earth are you suggesting here - should the WRC have been reopened on a new alignment? Maybe diverted directly to Galway and operated by Bullet trains?
2. If I have to explain the advantages of rail versus bus be it battery, fossil fuel or other nuclear powered well - how long have you got?
3. Peak oil is one of many reasons why we should be investing in our rural and urban rail systems.

PS Have you ever travelled on the WRC? I have many times and I don't recall it being bouncy even its latter run-down state.

L1011

Judgement Day wrote: »

Point by point.

1. What on earth are you suggesting here - should the WRC have been reopened on a new alignment? Maybe diverted directly to Galway and operated by Bullet trains?
2. If I have to explain the advantages of rail versus bus be it battery, fossil fuel or other nuclear powered well - how long have you got?
3. Peak oil is one of many reasons why we should be investing in our rural and urban rail systems.

PS Have you ever travelled on the WRC? I have many times and I don't recall it being bouncy even its latter run-down state.

1: If a line was to be reopened, a better alignment taking in more population centres and with less gradient/curves should have been found.

2: The advantages of rail over bus in extra-rural scenarios are none. I've got plenty of time for you to explain nothingness. There's a reason that the Londonderry & Lough Swilly Railway Company is still in business as a bus line, not a rail firm.
3: Urban yes. Rural, maybe. Extra rural - no. By the time there is the technology to run efficient battery powered railcars, there'll be the technology to run efficient battery powered buses, which will be able to go directly to the centre of towns and direct to traffic hubs, unlike a rural rail alignment which serves very little of anything.

I've never travelled the WRC as I'm not old enough to have, however having seen the track, even the surprisingly well preserved sections, its clear that its going to be a horrific ride in a railcar. Even with brand new CWR, the alignment leaves a lot to be desired in straightness and level.

Judgement Day

MYOB wrote: »

1: If a line was to be reopened, a better alignment taking in more population centres and with less gradient/curves should have been found.

2: The advantages of rail over bus in extra-rural scenarios are none. I've got plenty of time for you to explain nothingness. There's a reason that the Londonderry & Lough Swilly Railway Company is still in business as a bus line, not a rail firm.
3: Urban yes. Rural, maybe. Extra rural - no. By the time there is the technology to run efficient battery powered railcars, there'll be the technology to run efficient battery powered buses, which will be able to go directly to the centre of towns and direct to traffic hubs, unlike a rural rail alignment which serves very little of anything.

I've never travelled the WRC as I'm not old enough to have, however having seen the track, even the surprisingly well preserved sections, its clear that its going to be a horrific ride in a railcar. Even with brand new CWR, the alignment leaves a lot to be desired in straightness and level.

1. It is a rural line - there are no other population centres to be taken in.
2. The Londonderry & Lough Swilly Rly Co., survives ,on the edge, as a bus operator because it found it cheaper to operate buses than trains. Not necessarily better.
3. Battery powered railcars - the Drumm trains - were pioneered in Ireland during the 1930s and following successful experiments were introduced on the Bray/Harcourt Street line during the late 1930s/40s and ran until their batteries needed replacing (circa 1951). An early experiment done when cash was in short supply - like so much pioneering work done in these islands it was not followed through.

The gradients and curves on the new WRC are not going to be horrific and the only awful feature of the journey will be enduring the woeful Commuter railcars that are to run the service - no catering, no 1st class, no Fastrack and probably no passengers!

L1011

That the Drumm trains went out of service when their batteries needed replacing suggests they weren't effecient enough to bother procuring the parts for, doesn't it?

Also, why would Swilly Bus find it cheaper to run buses than trains if rural trains are 'better'? Better how, may I ask?

KC61

MYOB wrote: »

1:I've never travelled the WRC as I'm not old enough to have, however having seen the track, even the surprisingly well preserved sections, its clear that its going to be a horrific ride in a railcar. Even with brand new CWR, the alignment leaves a lot to be desired in straightness and level.

With due respect, until the track is finally tamped and stressed, comments such as this regarding ride quality are ludicrous. The track bed has been fully restored, reballasted and the tracks relaid with new concrete sleepers.

You cannot make comments on the ride quality until the stressing and tamping is fully completed - it's like saying that driving on a road is going to be very bumpy at a time when the final surface has not yet been applied.

I would find it absolutely incredible if the ride quality was "horrific".

westtip

Hamndegger wrote: »

In this instance, there is some justification in moving this traffic onto the quieter WRC as trains currently have to stop to allow the loco to change ends on both trips; this practice blocks train paths at Kildare Station for long periods in both directions. While the loco would still need to change ends in Limerick, this would be done away from the main running lines into Limerick where it won't block other train movements; drivers could also change here easily which was the done thing until the WRC closed in the mid 1990's. There was one recent incident at Kildare when a loco on a timber train broke down at Kildare; the line was blocked for about 90 minutes and severe delays resulted for all services to and from Heuston as a result.

I'm not familiar with the detail of the freight journey and need to change locos from one end to another at Kildare - but if this is the case - and I have no reason to question it - then would it not surely be cheaper to make some changes at Kildare to allow locos to be changed away from the main through track in the same way- (in the manner you said happened at Limerick), than restoring an entire line - which is going to lose money from day one, and the capital expenditure on the restoration which could be spent on far higher priorities in the west is hardly justified if a way to use the exisiting route via Kildare can be improved at a much lesser cost. If the loco you mentioned just broke down on its way through - then not a lot can be done about that - except better maintenance of locos and having locos on standby (again a cheaper option than re-opening the WRC). It has to be accepted that trains do from time to time break down - hence the need for double tracking and points to transfer trains from line A to line B on a regular enough basis along the length of all main lines to allow trains to pass the broken down Thomas the tank engine. Our train lines are generally (except greater Dublin area) working under capacity in any event - and if freight can be moved from the West to Waterford via Kildare - but overnight using non peak time on the track - surely this represents greater use of the working capital (ie the railway lines) that are already in existence. Lets face it, it is being advocated that the WRC be restored for what? 3 passenger trains a day in each direction (6 per day) and maybe 2 on Sats and Sundays (4 per day) thats 6 tains x 5 weekdays = 30 and 2x4 at weekends = 8 Thats 38 runs up and down a line each week for (emptyish) passenger trains and maybe 7 freight trains a week (up and down runs = 14) thats 52 trains a week passing over a line which has been fully restored to a full modern standard. I mean Why do it? After a year the passenger services would be cut, cos the whole thing woudl be losing too much money? Where then West on Track? Don't lets worry about it anyways cos as I've said before Government is looking to CIE to knock this one on the head (which they will do when the numbers for Ennis -Athenry - Galway start coming through) and the new feasibility and costing study is done later this year for phase B (Athenry - Tuam) and phase C (Tuam-Claremorris) - I confidently predict this coming from Minister Dempsey et al: "its not our fault folks, CIE just said it won't work and we won't make them do it, blame CIE not us" we can then carve a gravestone and place it at Claremorris station "WOT 2003 - 2009 RIP Bless 'em they were such well meaning folks - but alas gone to the trainspotters nerdy nirvana." (PS They have another "conference" coming up in 2014 to report on progress and listen to the 10th transport minister in a row to come along and tell them what a great job they are doing, however latest feasability figures show is well - just not feasible and in any event the IMF will not pay for it - and the 2011 census showed that population in the west is once again on the decline -

They will debate amongst themselves about just how wonderfully well they are making progress and the fact that services from Ennis to Athenry have been cut to 2 trains a week on Friday night and Sunday night is an unfortunate setback, and CIE are to blame fo rthe fact that no one used the services - they will not listen to debate, and will bring along their photos of the steam trains chugging out of Tobercurry and Kiltimagh in 1947 and wasn't Ireland such a wonderful country then.

and the Minister will let them know about the latest progress on the installation of barrier free train spotting facilities at Athenry - the conference will of course be held in Claremorris, the hub and centre of Irelands railway network - Irelands very own Clapham junction.......Oh the sun is getting to me this week.

I see we have now got to over 2000 posts - what do you say we kill it folks (this thread!!??) This parrot is definitely dead. Adios my friends I am taking a train spotting holiday in the west of Ireland - I shall be sitting on the platform at Kiltimagh awaiting the spirit of steam to come rushing through and when the light the fires in Mayo to welcome back the trains on WRC please wake me from my tomb......(hopefully won't be in there for another 40 years)

bk

Judgement Day wrote: »

Battery powered trains or other electrically powered trains would be possible

It is funny you should mention that, because I was thinking that by the time peak oil effects us, battery powered cars and buses will be widely available, therefore the argument of building the WRC for peak oil is none and void.

Look I'm a bit of environmentalist myself, I'd like to see more rail based public transport, but we need to be realistic about it. Rail works as an intensive commuter service around a large city like Dublin and as an intercity service between long distance large cities (really Cork - Dublin barely counts as this). What it isn't good at is rural areas with low density.

For rural areas decent roads, with a decent flexible bus service are the better option.

I worry that WRC is and will adversely effect other, far more important rail projects, by diverting capital expenditure, track laying crews and other resources and massive subsidies that will be required to run this white elephant.

Zoney

bk wrote: »

It is funny you should mention that, because I was thinking that by the time peak oil effects us, battery powered cars and buses will be widely available, therefore the argument of building the WRC for peak oil is none and void.

This is a bit off-topic, but battery-powered X is a nonsense. The power doesn't come from a magic box you know! The batteries use finite resources (including some less usual elements) to construct, as well as the energy involved in manufacture (and safe disposal). The energy for the forseeable future will still mostly be coming from power stations using fossil fuels... except that using batteries introduces inefficiency - in fact so much so that it is far far more sensible to simply burn the fuel in-situ (i.e. internal combustion engine) and use the energy directly - avoiding un-necessary waste from distribution and more conversions.

Mass transit of course has obvious benefits as you simply use far less energy (whatever the means of power) to move the same people as compared to them travelling individually.

Jim Martin

As regards freight traffic, there's loads of intermediate locations where freight could & should be put onto rail - but it will need government intervention - it is impossible to have a functioning transport system without a centralised overview i.e. regulation! Thjs free enterprise free-for-all has been proved unworkable, hence why railways were nationalised in the first place!

Judgement Day

Zoney wrote: »

This is a bit off-topic, but battery-powered X is a nonsense. The power doesn't come from a magic box you know! The batteries use finite resources (including some less usual elements) to construct, as well as the energy involved in manufacture (and safe disposal). The energy for the forseeable future will still mostly be coming from power stations using fossil fuels... except that using batteries introduces inefficiency - in fact so much so that it is far far more sensible to simply burn the fuel in-situ (i.e. internal combustion engine) and use the energy directly - avoiding un-necessary waste from distribution and more conversions.

Mass transit of course has obvious benefits as you simply use far less energy (whatever the means of power) to move the same people as compared to them travelling individually.

As I understand it, a reasonable percentage of future power production is going to be wind energy - in the west of Ireland - another reason why battery/electrically powered railcars could be viable. Just to dismiss the idea as nonsense shows a complete lack of understanding of the serious issues facing the country.

Nostradamus

yachtsman wrote: »

Don't forget it was the Westontrackers who identified the potential of container trains from mayo to waterford - everybody laughed - so they went and secured the traffic to prove their point,

One question: How do you know there is anything actually being shipped in these containers?

yachtsman

You could be on to something there.
I bet those lulu's in the West are paying IE a million a year since 2005 to run 16,000 empty boxes and tanks from Ballina to Waterford to fool the Government into believing there's actual industry down in Mayo. Jaypurs they're a clever bunch all right! Ye could'nt be up to them.

Is anyone at all prepared to cut them a bit of slack and give them credit for conducting a campaign to re-open a stretch of intercity railway in this country or are we such a crowd of begrudgers that we can't even credit achievement. It was easy for the so and sos in CIE to shut the railways. They have never opened an inter regional railway and if the wests projections for freight have been already achieved I'm prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt that their passenger projections are equally accurate.

The real threat is that IE will totally mess up its operational viability by poor marketing, timetables, fares, rolling stock - like they have on Limerick -Waterford, Nenagh, Ballina-Westport.

I'd say the best way of calling West Tracks bluff is put them in charge of its operation with a subsidy equivalent to IEs. It won't happen because I'd say they'd show up IE like Ryanair did with Aer Lingus.

Remember the first 35 mile phase is costing roughly the same as the 1 mile long LUAS extension from Connolly to Spencer Dock or three times the 100 yard long Luas ramp outside Connolly. Lets keep things in perspective.:rolleyes:

SeanW

Ok, 3 things wrong with your post.
1) Even if all those Norfolk trains are running full, there is a difference between slow goods and passenger service. Much of what (presumably) ends up on Norfolk Liner trains probably came transshipped from truck - the WRC would not change that. There is no need to rebuild the WRC for freight as the existing railway infrastructure is adequate to that task.
2) You are ignoring a lot of what has been posted about the quality of the WRC alignment - it quite simply will not make for a good railway and cannot compete against roads, especially the upcoming M18 and N17 upgrades. Also being ignored is the fact that most development in the West has been on a scattergun basis.
3) The 1st phase of the WRC may well cost the same as the Docklands Luas extension - but I can assure you that more people will use that Luas extension than the WRC - I would go so far as to speculate that more people will use the Docklands Luas in one rush hour than the 1st phase WRC in a week.
Most Red line trams operate at a crush load level between Heuston and the City Centre, even off peak they can be uncomfortable, and they run every 5 minutes!

So I'm going to have to call shenanigans on this one.

As to the idea of putting West On Track in charge of WRC operation, while I agree there is a case for someone to "show up" CIE/Irish Rail, I highly doubt that WOT has either the railway knowledge or the business expertise to do anything of the sort.