Western Rail Corridor

dowlingm

the Norfolks don't stop in places like Woodlawn and Ardrahan, do they now? They go from point A to point B. The problem with the WRC as is being built is that they are reopening intermediate halts when the reality of the demand profile and the shorter bus routing means the service should be as near express as possible.

Judgement Day

I like the idea of WOT being put in charge of operating the WRC - and subsidised - a bit like the Sligo, Leitrim & Northern Counties was in its latter years. It produced a very lean operation then and is arguably a model that could be applied to much of the rail network with CIE/IE being retained solely to maintain the infrastructure to a certain standard. Let's face it no other operator could make a bigger mess of running the railway than the present shower. I can tell you for certain that the first thing any private operator would do would be to reintroduce Fastrack and any other possible means of increasing income with NO additional expenditure!

murphaph

Fastrack is a dead duck unless and until the railways are actually faster than the roads again! Who's going to put a parcel on fastrack when sending it directly by motorway to Cork will take less time?

The railways main thrust on such a small island should of course be commuter traffic with a couple of core intercity routes (erm, sort of what we have now but the commuter aspect needs major expansion and the core Intercity routes need massive money spent on them getting them straightened out and fit for 200km/h+ running end to end.

We certainly should not be distracting ourselves with silly projects like the WRC which in reality will NEVER compete with the M20/M18/M17/N17 from Cork to Sligo. It was simply not built as an Intercity railway in the first place guys. It's highly substandard along it's northern end. Galway<->Limerick MIGHT be viable but not the way it's currently planned.

DWCommuter

murphaph wrote: »

Fastrack is a dead duck unless and until the railways are actually faster than the roads again! Who's going to put a parcel on fastrack when sending it directly by motorway to Cork will take less time?

The railways main thrust on such a small island should of course be commuter traffic with a couple of core intercity routes (erm, sort of what we have now but the commuter aspect needs major expansion and the core Intercity routes need massive money spent on them getting them straightened out and fit for 200km/h+ running end to end.

We certainly should not be distracting ourselves with silly projects like the WRC which in reality will NEVER compete with the M20/M18/M17/N17 from Cork to Sligo. It was simply not built as an Intercity railway in the first place guys. It's highly substandard along it's northern end. Galway<->Limerick MIGHT be viable but not the way it's currently planned.

Just a quick point about fastrack. It was a same day station to station service on a train that was going anyway, hence it was very affordable to businesses and the public. I agree road is getting quicker, but the cost of sending a package from Dublin to Galway by road on a same day just turn up service would be about 300 euro. Maybe Bus Eireann should examine to possibilities.

pointofnoreturn

murphaph wrote: »

Fastrack is a dead duck unless and until the railways are actually faster than the roads again! Who's going to put a parcel on fastrack when sending it directly by motorway to Cork will take less time?

The railways main thrust on such a small island should of course be commuter traffic with a couple of core intercity routes (erm, sort of what we have now but the commuter aspect needs major expansion and the core Intercity routes need massive money spent on them getting them straightened out and fit for 200km/h+ running end to end.

We certainly should not be distracting ourselves with silly projects like the WRC which in reality will NEVER compete with the M20/M18/M17/N17 from Cork to Sligo. It was simply not built as an Intercity railway in the first place guys. It's highly substandard along it's northern end. Galway<->Limerick MIGHT be viable but not the way it's currently planned.

True, unless the goal here is to beat commute times and cost of car and bus travel, trains won't work in Ireland,
I know they expect the Dublin to Cork line to hit 200km/h but these trains they haven't are not true Intercity trains, you need to go electric to really beat the 200km/hr mark, + you need almost 3 rail lines on the route, (this is to have capacity for slow trains)

No one will use this unless you break this love and convenience of the car and that require A+ services compeditive services that we see all over europe with TGV, ICE EC beating even air transport in most cases

However I am neither for or against the WRC, I think it's a learning step, but no one else has another any other better Idea!

invincibleirish

pointofnoreturn wrote: »

True, unless the goal here is to beat commute times and cost of car and bus travel, trains won't work in Ireland,
I know they expect the Dublin to Cork line to hit 200km/h but these trains they haven't are not true Intercity trains, you need to go electric to really beat the 200km/hr mark, + you need almost 3 rail lines on the route, (this is to have capacity for slow trains)

No one will use this unless you break this love and convenience of the car and that require A+ services compeditive services that we see all over europe with TGV, ICE EC beating even air transport in most cases

However I am neither for or against the WRC, I think it's a learning step, but no one else has another any other better Idea!

I think this post is poignant on the day thats in it. Here we are squabbling about the limited potential of the WRC & looking forward to the Midleton line opening + some LUAS extensions and we get a vision of what could have been if the Celtic Tiger monies weren't poured disproportionately down the roads drain.

Meanwhile as FF get a kicking the Interurban programme + M3/M4 improvements are and will be continuing to come online and IEs InterCity network will be slower & more expensive then either car, bus or plane.

bk

Zoney wrote: »

This is a bit off-topic, but battery-powered X is a nonsense. The power doesn't come from a magic box you know! The batteries use finite resources (including some less usual elements) to construct, as well as the energy involved in manufacture (and safe disposal). The energy for the forseeable future will still mostly be coming from power stations using fossil fuels... except that using batteries introduces inefficiency - in fact so much so that it is far far more sensible to simply burn the fuel in-situ (i.e. internal combustion engine) and use the energy directly - avoiding un-necessary waste from distribution and more conversions.

Actually your comment about battery being less efficient then burning petrol in an engine is incorrect.

Electric vehicles are actually very efficient, about 90% efficient, in other words 90% of the energy stored in the battery gets converted to driving power (it is 30% for petrol and 45% for diesel). The electric grid is also a very efficient way to distribute energy.

Of course you need to look at how the electricity is generated and look at the full well-to-wheel analysis to find the most efficient.

And it turns out that renewable/nuclear energy powered battery electric vehicles are both the most energy efficient and produce almost zero carbon dioxide.

http://autospeed.com/cms/title_Assessing-the-Alternatives/A_110155/article.html

That is why I'm a big proponent of Nuclear energy. This is the only way to get truly carbon dioxide free energy on a large scale to our cars and electric trains, even if we don't build our own, we will import massive amounts of it from the UK and France over interconnectors as I expect the UK to go heavily into Nuclear.

While obviously the best way is using renewables or Nuclear to generate energy for vehicles, it actually turns out that burning natural gas to generate electricity to power battery cars produces 55% less carbon dioxide then a petrol car. This is good news as much of the electricity produced in Ireland is produced via gas, so even without going nuclear, we would still get about a 55% reduction in carbon dioxide emissions by switching to battery cars.

Which would be a nice medium term stop gap, giving us time to build more renewables and nuclear (maybe hopefully even fusion some day).

So don't reject electric vehicles out of hand.

Zoney

bk wrote: »

Actually your comment about battery being less efficient then burning petrol in an engine is incorrect.

Electric vehicles are actually very efficient, about 90% efficient, in other words 90% of the energy stored in the battery gets converted to driving power (it is 30% for petrol and 45% for diesel). The electric grid is also a very efficient way to distribute energy.

Of course you need to look at how the electricity is generated and look at the full well-to-wheel analysis to find the most efficient.

Exactly, that 90% figure isn't the relevant one. The relevant one includes the conversion of the fuel at power station to energy, the transmission losses, and the loss converting mains electric to stored battery energy.

Nothing like 90%!!!

You are comparing with simply using fuel directly in an internal combustion engine!

murphaph

Zoney wrote: »

Exactly, that 90% figure isn't the relevant one. The relevant one includes the conversion of the fuel at power station to energy, the transmission losses, and the loss converting mains electric to stored battery energy.

Nothing like 90%!!!

You are comparing with simply using fuel directly in an internal combustion engine!

...in the same way you have to account for transportation costs for petroleum products (they have to come from the middle east in the main) and also the costs involved in converting crude oil into usable fuels. If we produced our own electricity here directly from renewables or indeed nuclear a lot of those costs would be eliminated.

bk

Zoney wrote: »

Exactly, that 90% figure isn't the relevant one. The relevant one includes the conversion of the fuel at power station to energy, the transmission losses, and the loss converting mains electric to stored battery energy.

Nothing like 90%!!!

You are comparing with simply using fuel directly in an internal combustion engine!

Oh wow, you completely ignored most of my post and the link I gave which gives a detailed analysis of well-to-wheel performance of most alternative fuel vehicles compared to petrol.

Seriously are you purposely trying to be obtuse?

If you bothered to read the link, you would find that it finds:
1) Battery Electric Vehicles powered by electricity generated via renewable or nuclear energy produces almost zero carbon dioxide over the enter well-to-wheel process.
2) Battery Electric Vehicles powered by electricity generated via gas powered electricity generation stations (common in Ireland) produce 55% less carbon dioxide then petrol engines vehicles over the entire well-to-wheel process.

Now let me repeat that in case you still don't understand, even when you take into account the carbon dioxide released from the production of electricity at a gas powered plant (and also the extraction and transportation of that gas to the power plant) it is still a significant 55% less then a petrol or diesel car.

I think you just don't want to accept this, as it doesn't fit into you vision of all cars being dumped in the future and we all using train based transport and eliminates one of the most often frequented reason for the WRC.

Judgement Day

murphaph wrote: »

Fastrack is a dead duck unless and until the railways are actually faster than the roads again! Who's going to put a parcel on fastrack when sending it directly by motorway to Cork will take less time?

The railways main thrust on such a small island should of course be commuter traffic with a couple of core intercity routes (erm, sort of what we have now but the commuter aspect needs major expansion and the core Intercity routes need massive money spent on them getting them straightened out and fit for 200km/h+ running end to end.

We certainly should not be distracting ourselves with silly projects like the WRC which in reality will NEVER compete with the M20/M18/M17/N17 from Cork to Sligo. It was simply not built as an Intercity railway in the first place guys. It's highly substandard along it's northern end. Galway<->Limerick MIGHT be viable but not the way it's currently planned.

Although the point about Fastrack has been more than adequately covered by DWCommuter it highlights the rubbish spouted by many contributors to this thread. How could you feel the ability to post a comment about Fastrack when you clearly have absolutely NO knowledge of the service?

dowlingm

no way would IE want WOT to operate service because it would open the door for the real players in Europe to start taking bits of the network they actually are afraid to lose.

Victor

DWCommuter wrote: »

Maybe Bus Eireann should examine to possibilities.

Bus Éireann got out of the parcels business a few years before Irish Rail.

Judgement Day

That's correct Victor - another masterstroke of joined-up CIE thinking!

Dkettle

It's about time the west got a nuclear powered train with plenty of batteries and a full parcel service, possibly with livestock carriages. Surely the local ICA could run this service (hourly initially, until demand necessitates a more frequent running).

I mean, every where else is getting them...

Judgement Day

Did you have to think long and hard before that very witty posting? :P

Gruffalo

There was a piece about the WRC on RTÉ Radio 1 yesterday. The link in on the following page from the Rail Users Ireland website:

http://www.railusers.ie/forum/showthread.php?t=9239

Judgement Day

Thanks for the link - I heard it when broadcast but could not be sure that the Gort hotelier stated that trains would bring visitors from Gort to Eyre Square in 20 minutes - he did! 33 miles in 20 minutes plus driver changing ends in Athenry - and in a 2900 class commuter railcar!

I liked the idea of the IE manager that they would be trying to maximise revenue on the new service - incisive reporter did not query re Fastrack - but would you expect him to! Mark Gleeson of Rail Users Ireland came across as .......well let's not get personal!

Gruffalo

Judgement Day wrote: »

Thanks for the link - I heard it when broadcast but could not be sure that the Gort hotelier stated that trains would bring visitors from Gort to Eyre Square in 20 minutes - he did! 33 miles in 20 minutes plus driver changing ends in Athenry - and in a 2900 class commuter railcar!

And the guy from IÉ clearly stated that the trains wont be doing more that 60 miles ph. Surely the RTÉ man could work out that there was no you you would get to Gort that quickly given that speed.

I liked the idea of the IE manager that they would be trying to maximise revenue on the new service - incisive reporter did not query re Fastrack -

I know it was like listening to someone reading Harry Potter.

Mark Gleeson of Rail Users Ireland came across as .......well let's not get personal!

Yep! I thought the same.

KC61

Just to put up my estimates again...

I would expect that the journey times will be something in the region of:

Limerick - Ennis 35 mins
Ennis-Gort - 24 mins
Gort-Athenry - 26 mins
Athenry-Galway - 13 mins

Adding in 1 min for the stops at Ennis and Gort, 4 mins at Athenry and possibly an extra 5 mins for crossing another train along the way, that's a total of about 1 hour 45/50 mins total journey time.

This is a guess on my part, but based on similar distances on the other routes it would appear reasonable.

westtip

This piece is hilarious - did you hear that bit about golfers flooding down to Gort on the train and been picked up to play Gort Golf Club - yeah right - I play golf and have never never never used public transport to get to a golf course - can you imagine this happening!!! He is living in cloud cuckoo land! the arguments about getting to Eyre Square are as usual complete BS. Workers ar scattered in fragmented dispersed work places these days - so once you get to Eyre Square what do you do - spend another 45 minutes getting to your workplace, and then in the evening you have to work your day around the one train home - when will they wake up this will not be a commuter service! You have to deliver what expectations are, it just won't work!!! No second track from Galway to Athenry, waiting for trains at Athenry etc ..... the more I hear the more I realise ...this project is doomed! When this line opens - it will be see for what it is very very quickly - A complete white elephant. Hilarious!!

westtip

KC61 wrote: »

Just to put up my estimates again...

I would expect that the journey times will be something in the region of:

Limerick - Ennis 35 mins
Ennis-Gort - 24 mins
Gort-Athenry - 26 mins
Athenry-Galway - 13 mins

Adding in 1 min for the stops at Ennis and Gort, 4 mins at Athenry and possibly an extra 5 mins for crossing another train along the way, that's a total of about 1 hour 45/50 mins total journey time.

This is a guess on my part, but based on similar distances on the other routes it would appear reasonable.

When the route is full DC 100 km from Limerick to Galway - should be able to drive it in an hour - max an hour and a quarter - where then WRC? An express bus service with bus lanes about the same. Gort - Galway is 37 km at an avg of 100 kph on the DC (and lets face it it will be possible to go quicker) Gort - Galway will be doable in 30 minutes - about the amount of time you will have to wait at Ahenry for a connection.

KC61

westtip wrote: »

This piece is hilarious - did you hear that bit about golfers flooding down to Gort on the train and been picked up to play Gort Golf Club - yeah right - I play golf and have never never never used public transport to get to a golf course - can you imagine this happening!!! He is living in cloud cuckoo land! the arguments about getting to Eyre Square are as usual complete BS. Workers ar scattered in fragmented dispersed work places these days - so once you get to Eyre Square what do you do - spend another 45 minutes getting to your workplace, and then in the evening you have to work your day around the one train home - when will they wake up this will not be a commuter service! You have to deliver what expectations are, it just won't work!!! No second track from Galway to Athenry, waiting for trains at Athenry etc ..... the more I hear the more I realise ...this project is doomed! When this line opens - it will be see for what it is very very quickly - A complete white elephant. Hilarious!!

westtip wrote: »

When the route is full DC 100 km from Limerick to Galway - should be able to drive it in an hour - max an hour and a quarter - where then WRC? An express bus service with bus lanes about the same. Gort - Galway is 37 km at an avg of 100 kph on the DC (and lets face it it will be possible to go quicker) Gort - Galway will be doable in 30 minutes - about the amount of time you will have to wait at Ahenry for a connection.

Looking at this from an operational perspective, I would think that the services will be not be connections at Athenry - there is still plenty of room for both Limerick and Galway services to use the Athenry-Galway section - so I would expect that people won't be looking at changing trains at Athenry. As such, you're looking at about 45 minutes running time from Gort to Galway.

The lack of a second track from Athenry to Galway is something of a red herring at the moment as the last plans I heard were for a minimum of 5 return services per day between Limerick and Galway, with perhaps a return Ennis-Galway commuter run added in. There is ample room for slotting 10 additional services into the current schedule on that section.

Where the issue starts would be if the section to/from Tuam/Claremorris is ever reopened or if the Dublin/Galway service were to go hourly. As it is there is plenty of "wriggle room" to fit Galway-Limerick services into and out of Galway.

westtip

KC61 wrote: »

Looking at this from an operational perspective, I would think that the services will be not be connections at Athenry - there is still plenty of room for both Limerick and Galway services to use the Athenry-Galway section - so I would expect that people won't be looking at changing trains at Athenry. As such, you're looking at about 45 minutes running time from Gort to Galway.

The lack of a second track from Athenry to Galway is something of a red herring at the moment as the last plans I heard were for a minimum of 5 return services per day between Limerick and Galway, with perhaps a return Ennis-Galway commuter run added in. There is ample room for slotting 10 additional services into the current schedule on that section.

Where the issue starts would be if the section to/from Tuam/Claremorris is ever reopened or if the Dublin/Galway service were to go hourly. As it is there is plenty of "wriggle room" to fit Galway-Limerick services into and out of Galway.

I think there were some draft timetables published at one stage - the line is opening supposedly in September - have any actual timetables been published yet - may solve all these conjecture arguments about time if we can see the actual published timetable. anyone got a link to it yet? I rang IE today but their red hot information line (on hold for at least five minutes), said we have nothing why not call Ennis station - which I did - and guess what - they don't know either - It's supposed to be opening in September - less than three months away - you would think they have an inkling - makes you wonder about any pre- marketing they do - I tell you its doomed as a project, the words Pi*s up and Brewery come to mind, couldn't organise one such event in one such place if you are unfamiliar with the phrase.

BTW on the Tuam/Claremorris section lets just wait and see what happens with the following:

1) Review of usage of Ennis/Athenry section (see Dempsey speech May 1)
2) Outcome of new feasibility and costings by IE (see Dempsey speech May 1)
3) Review of NDP and Government spending plans to come in the autumn. (an bord Snip)
4) Err.....no chance there is no money and no demand.

KC61

westtip wrote: »

I think there were some draft timetables published at one stage - the line is opening supposedly in September - have any actual timetables been published yet - may solve all these conjecture arguments about time if we can see the actual published timetable. anyone got a link to it yet? BTW on the Tuam/Claremorris section lets just wait and see what happens with the following:

1) Review of usage of Ennis/Athenry section (see Dempsey speech May 1)
2) Outcome of new feasibility and costings by IE (see Dempsey speech May 1)
3) Review of NDP and Government spending plans to come in the autumn. (an bord Snip)

Re Tuam/Claremorris - my comment was PURELY from an operational perspective regarding Athenry/Galway - I ain't getting into the politics of the whys/wherefores of the WRC and would prefer to steer clear of it, so please don't drag me into it.

There have not been any public timetables published by Irish Rail yet (draft or otherwise), but I still see no reason why trains would terminate at Athenry. Note that in the interview it was the RUI guy that suggested that might happen and not the Irish Rail manager.

The point that I'm trying to get across is that there is ample scope operationally for the services to continue to/from Galway direct from Limerick, and that's exactly what I would expect to happen, with a running time of 1 hour 45/50 mins.

Jim Martin

"I play golf and have never never never used public transport to get to a golf course - can you imagine this happening!!!"

I can - and that day may not be so very far off - you (and many others) might be glad of public transport then!

KC61

westtip wrote: »

I think there were some draft timetables published at one stage - the line is opening supposedly in September - have any actual timetables been published yet - may solve all these conjecture arguments about time if we can see the actual published timetable. anyone got a link to it yet? I rang IE today but their red hot information line (on hold for at least five minutes), said we have nothing why not call Ennis station - which I did - and guess what - they don't know either - It's supposed to be opening in September - less than three months away - you would think they have an inkling - makes you wonder about any pre- marketing they do - I tell you its doomed as a project, the words Pi*s up and Brewery come to mind, couldn't organise one such event in one such place if you are unfamiliar with the phrase.

In recent years, Irish Rail has tended to finalise new timetables roughly about two months before they become operational. Unlike Midleton, which has been published (easy to do as there is no conflict with other routes - assuming Cork/Cobh stays as is), every other route's timetable will be under review at the moment, with levels of service, speed restrictions, rolling stock used all having a bearing on the new schedule. As the WRC will have to fit into line with Dublin/Galway, Ennis/Limerick/Limerick Junction and indeed Dublin/Cork and Limerick Junction/Waterford services then there will be some toing and froing before these are finalised. This is the normal process that is gone through each year. Local stations would not have this sort of information yet, nor would the customer information number.

I'd imagine that, given the new timetable is currently due at around the end of September, the timetable will be finalised at the end of July or in early August, and published not long after that.

However, in the meantime I'd have thought that the best place to get some information might be to email the address given on the Irish Rail website (wrc@irishrail.ie).

serfboard

westtip wrote: »

the arguments about getting to Eyre Square are as usual complete BS. Workers ar scattered in fragmented dispersed work places these days - so once you get to Eyre Square what do you do - spend another 45 minutes getting to your workplace, and then in the evening you have to work your day around the one train home - when will they wake up this will not be a commuter service!

Agree 100%, and have said so before. In fact, largest concentration of employment in Galway is Ballybrit/Parkmore/Mervue which the line goes nowhere near.

There will be a station in Oranmore, and the best one could hope for would be shuttle buses from there to Ballybrit. But sure, you'd be just quicker to drive to Oranmore anyway!

Gort-Tuam motorway could have been well underway by now, were it not for this expensive distraction.

westtip

KC61 wrote: »

Re Tuam/Claremorris - my comment was PURELY from an operational perspective regarding Athenry/Galway - I ain't getting into the politics of the whys/wherefores of the WRC and would prefer to steer clear of it, so please don't drag me into it.

The point that I'm trying to get across is that there is ample scope operationally for the services to continue to/from Galway direct from Limerick, and that's exactly what I would expect to happen, with a running time of 1 hour 45/50 mins.

I don't blame you about the politics side of the WRC. Re the ample scope argument - you are probably right - truth is there won't be ample passengers.

Perhaps Dublin - Galway trains should terminate at Athenry (rename it Galway East) and then just have a regular 15 minute interval shuttle service from Athenry to Eyre Square on the Galway "commuter line" and the same to Craughwell and Gort - provided all mainline trains were guarenteed a shuttle to the city within five minutes of arriving at Athenry it might actually work as a creative idea. IN fact with the M6 and M17/18 being built Athenry could become the true crossroads for the west with a good bus interchange there as well, but hey ho with lots of people and the right critical mass it might work - but maybe tis wishful thinking.

Judgement Day

Why not go the full hog like CIE/IE wished to do some years ago, and terminate all trains at Athlone - with onward bus connections to Galway, Westport, Ballina.....:D