Western Rail Corridor

dowlingm

Like Gort-Athenry, Tuam-Athenry only really works as PaleRail, given the far more direct road options.

For me the only upside of that route is getting Ballina freight off the Palelines and out of the way of passengers, and that means reopening to Claremorris. (it also means sparing Limerick J-Waterford, obviously). Opening to Tuam is the worst of all worlds, especially without doubletracking Galway-Athenry to accommodate Galway-Limerick, Galway-Dublin and now Galway-Tuam as well.

Zoney

dowlingm wrote: »

Opening to Tuam is the worst of all worlds, especially without doubletracking Galway-Athenry to accommodate Galway-Limerick, Galway-Dublin and now Galway-Tuam as well.

I presume that as usual, the plan is to make trains in/out of Galway a mess *first* in order to "justify" double tracking Galway-Athenry after the fact once people are up in arms enough about late trains and such. Seems to be the usual way anyone (such as IÉ) goes about getting money for anything. Forking out for things that *will* be necessary is seen as optional, whereas with things that *are* necessary there is sometimes some hope of funding - and the more so the worse the existing situation becomes.

Judgement Day

westtip wrote: »

Read Minister Dempseys speech of May 1st at the Claremorris conference: Ennis - Athenry supposed to be opening September - never mind the stupidy of it not going direct to Galway this whole thing is about opening up a line which never went to Galway - you don't seriously think an entirely new line was ever envisaged do you???? It will be a complete white elephant carrying about 40 people a day if they are lucky with the schedule the trains will have.

Athenry Tuam and Tuam Claremorris are back on the agenda as feasibility studies - so thankfully they should be knocked on the head. Take a look at the WOT website for the speech - also read what Minister O'Cuiv had to say and make your mind up as to when it will happen to Claremmorris - Collooney which will never happen however West on Track will continue to "campaign for this vital piece of infrastructure" yawn - like give us the atlantic road corridor first and foremost. In the meantime what could be the opportunity for a fantistic piece of toursim infrastructure at relatively low cost will be completly ignored (greenway from Claremorris to Collooney).

Yep, I can just see tourists flocking to Ireland in their thousands to cycle along an overgrown laneway through the middle of nowhere! Anyway how will they get their bikes to this tourist mecca as the 22000s can only carry three bikes per unit?

Sponge Bob

Zoney wrote: »

I presume that as usual, the plan is to make trains in/out of Galway a mess *first* in order to "justify" double tracking Galway-Athenry after the fact once people are up in arms enough about late trains and such. Seems to be the usual way anyone (such as IÉ) goes about getting money for anything. .

IE quoted an eye watering cost of €180m to Galway City Council for double tracking Galway - Athenry (20km-22km) , needless to say this kyboshed Galway City's attempt at some 'gateway' funding when they quoted it back to the government last year.

We know that IE came up with the €180m figure as it is attributed here . Galway City Council were stupid enough to accept this sociopathic lunacy from IE

Railusers Ireland had sensibly estimated it would cost €40m here , I concur.

West on Track reckoned it could be done for €21m ( in 2 phases either side of Oranmore) back in 2004 quoted here

Sad to say West On Track were MUCH nearer reality than IE were . This is a sad reflection on IE but IE don't care in the slightest

Chris_533976

2 phases though is daft, and just a way to manipulate numbers. Doing it in 2 phases would be utterly pointless as the same number of trains would still have to use the second phase - ie: no net benefit.

That will need dual track soon though. The Dublin services survive at the moment perfectly well on it (arguments for dual tracking a hell of a lot more of the line notwithstanding). If that ever goes hourly and Limerick - Galway and possible Tuam - Galway get on board then its going to be an awful bottleneck.

westtip

Judgement Day wrote: »

Yep, I can just see tourists flocking to Ireland in their thousands to cycle along an overgrown laneway through the middle of nowhere! Anyway how will they get their bikes to this tourist mecca as the 22000s can only carry three bikes per unit?

JD you woudl see more people using this walking/cycling facility in one day than would use it in a month as a railway - locals in all the towns along the way would use it as a local recreational facility along its entire route; have you tried walking or cyling along our quiet country lanes or roads of late? Unfortunately judging by the number of pedestrian fatalities we have the word lethal is not an exageration - and yes the WRC as a Greenway would draw in tourists and would I believe contribute more actual tourist euros to the local areas than the proposed rail line ever will; the fact the walking/cycling route will be through the "middle of nowhere" is all the more attractive; and what about "internal tourists" - this is not just about folks who fly in with their dollars euros and pounds; attracting internal domestic tourists, weekenders etc is equally important for fluidity of money in the tourist economy, it would take time to establish itself - but if you look at the level of usage of these greenways in other countries their value as tourist attractions is very quantifiable (a lot of work has been done on the economics of walking and cycling tourism in various UK universities) - as for local usage as a commuter rail line - north of Claremorris (and probably south of as well) as I have always said this notion is just that - a notion, a piped dream the stuff of nostalgia and as you and I both know - Claremorris/Collooney won't happen even if End Of gets the top job.

Anways sod the tourists I want somewhere safe for my kids to cycle on!

dowlingm

funny - while IE is removing bike space, the train companies where I am are using it as a marketing tool...

http://www.biketrain.ca/
http://www.gotransit.ca/public/en/destinations/niagarafalls.htm#Bicycles

westtip

dowlingm wrote: »

funny - while IE is removing bike space, the train companies where I am are using it as a marketing tool...

http://www.biketrain.ca/
http://www.gotransit.ca/public/en/destinations/niagarafalls.htm#Bicycles

Mate there is nothing funny about it! Just remember this is Ireland and planning and vision and foresight are lacking in great abundance from the powers that be - I hasten to add

Victor

dowlingm wrote: »

funny - while IE is removing bike space, the train companies where I am are using it as a marketing tool...

http://www.biketrain.ca/
http://www.gotransit.ca/public/en/destinations/niagarafalls.htm#Bicycles

In fairness, they have moved somewhat to correct things. The 22000s now have a minimum of 3 spaces instead of 1, they've greatly improved the information on the website (well they were starting with nothing ) and there might be some more developments to come, e.g. I've asked them to indicate what stations have what bike parking and it was look at positively as something that might be done, without too much difficulty.

dermo88

4 years on, and this is the thread that refuses to die.

Today, I used the least emotive language ever in relation to this issue. I guess I must be mellowing out approaching middle age. I posted this on Irishrailwaynews, and here is the link. I aim to win hearts and minds, and put forward a convincing argument, using hard evidence. But I may as well be talking to the wall, but that will never stop me. The figures for operational losses are based on an inflation adjusted exchange rate of 6 old pre decimal pence (1963) per 2009 Irish Euro.

http://irnirishrailwaynews.yuku.com/topic/370?page=42

If I (for one) believed that the railway north of Athenry would be effective in solving congestion, and improving services, then I assure you I would wholeheartedly support it.

Unfortunately, the evidence from a multitude of expensive reports, and timewasting commitees proves otherwise.

In ideal conditions, a preserved railway is the best way to secure the future of Athenry to Tuam, and when/if the planning and population densities support it, then Iarnrod Eireann or whatever operator surfaces in the next few years/decades can engage in a joint venture. Several TOC's in the UK for example are actively looking at operating services on preserved railways. This avoids the "snip" that jhb171achill points out. HOWEVER.

"Snipping today costs a lot more to correct tomorrow"

- A good point, but the railways that were snipped are in a different league to the line from Athenry to Claremorris.

1. They served commuters, or had the potential to do so such as

(a) Cork-Midleton
(b) Harcourt Street-Bray
(c) Clonsilla-Navan

In the case of all three of the above, the populations and planning decisions to justify their restoration did not reach sustainable levels until the 1990's in the case of A and C, and the mid 1970's in the case of B. The operational losses in that period in the case of A in the period 1963-1993 based on a 5 times a day service (which is what it had in 1963, would come to 10 Million in 2009 Euro, in the case of B for an hourly service to 50 Million (period 1958-1974) in 2009 Euro, and on C for a 4 times daily service to 12 Million in 2009 Euro (period 1963-1996). This in a country that was much poorer, and had to look at other priorities beyond railways, such as health, housing, education, policing, and more. The services, had they been retained would be nothing more than good advertisements for Ford car dealerships, and thats an unfortunate fact.

2. Athenry to Ennis is another kettle of fish, because in an ideal scenario, the rolling stock removed from the ineffective once daily Limerick to Ballina should have been diverted onto a far more effective thrice daily Limerick to Galway. But the CIE of that era was running down cross country routes to closure. Those effects remain to this day in the case of

(a) Rosslare to Limerick
(b) Limerick to Ballybrophy.

And these routes need to be fixed, and have proper timetabling on them in order to fulfil their potential, and prove the case and justify investment in regional rail. The detractors of this route no longer post here. They are now to be found at www.boards.ie under the commuting and transport section. www.politics.ie. www.garaiste.ie and www.p45.net to name a few key sites. Not to mention the obvious rival to www.irishrailwaynews.com which was a swearword....for all I know, it probably still is. !!##%!*#*! is now known as www.railusers.ie. P l a t f o r m 1 1 is still a swearword? Good heavens......

I have no objections to rail enthusiasts, or dreams, but if this line reopened North of Athenry, and it fails, it will set back the cause of regional rail investment by decades. Do you really want to take that gamble. The line North of Athenry is the very kind of route that is being closed in the former commie block, because it is an anachronism and it is outdated, and it will not compete.

Nostradamus

West on Track have just put huge posters on the N17 with a picture of one of the new railcars and it reads; CREATE IRISH JOBS. To give the impression that thousands of jobs will be created by opening the line. Underneath they have a list of the T21 projects and surprise surprise... the two baddies are naturally Dublin projects. They costed the Metro North and West (which is not even being built) together as a single project costing 6,000 MILLION Euros and then the Dart Underground. Down the list they have the 'cost effective' WRC making it look like a bargain.

Next to it is a poster of christ with 'JESUS DIED FOR NON BELIEVERS'.

You could not make this sh*t up even if you tried.

karlr42

Nostradamus wrote: »

West on Track have just put huge posters on the N17 with a picture of one of the new railcars and it reads; CREATE IRISH JOBS. To give the impression that thousands of jobs will be created by opening the line. Underneath they have a list of the T21 projects and surprise surprise... the two baddies are naturally Dublin projects. They costed the Metro North and West (which is not even being built) together as a single project costing 6,000 MILLION Euros and then the Dart Underground. Down the list they have the 'cost effective' WRC making it look like a bargain.

Next to it is a poster of christ with 'JESUS DIED FOR NON BELIEVERS'.

You could not make this sh*t up even if you tried.

Assuming this is the poster?

Chris_533976

"The Railway Safety Program - Cost n/a"

Yeah you dont need a safety program cos the trains will go so slowly on the WRC there'll be plenty of time for the sheep to get out of the way.

dermo88

Nostradamus

They costed the Metro North and West (which is not even being built) together as a single project costing 6,000 MILLION Euros and then the Dart Underground. Down the list they have the 'cost effective' WRC making it look like a bargain.

Next to it is a poster of christ with 'JESUS DIED FOR NON BELIEVERS'.

At this stage of the game, I think we are used to it. Over the years, Tom, Derek, and others have encountered some rather strange deranged wierdoes in relation to this line. The amusing thing, one of the most vociferous for it, long since gone off the radar lived in that rather famous suburb of Galway called. (wait for it)....(drum roll)

New Jersey.

The other, "moderator" lives in that well known suburb of Limerick called.

Leighton Buzzard.

Then you had the anti car wierdoes, and they'd mention, at the drop of a hat.

Holy Kyoto.
Congestion.
Pollution.
Social Justice.
Palerail.

We could look at a thread from 2007-2008 - Transylvania on Track.

I cannot imagine living without a car in somewhere like the West of Ireland.

To a tidy mind, the Western Rail Corridor fills a gap. It makes a nice cross country connection from Cork to Ballina or Sligo. But it looks better than it is. It flatters to deceive. The West is actually getting services it needed 20 years ago, and its becoming a modern looking system, with the resignalling, the new rolling stock, the reconstruction of the likes of Galway station, which finally make it look like a modern European system. It is, for its size, for its population density, reasonably good, but speeds are still poor.

Of course, alternative priorities West of the Shannon, in terms of rail projects should be:

Doubletracking Galway-Athenry, or reinstating Double track throughout from Galway to Dublin by either the line via Mullingar or to Portarlington. This would do far more to improve services to Mayo, Galway and Clare than the WRC.

But the region is not exactly rail friendly, and does not have the population densities to sustain new routes. It is well served by rail, with practically every major urban centre within Connaught, with a population greater than 10,000 having a railway station within 10 km.

Irish Railways need their very own Jeremy Clarkson to get one of those ancient GM engines, and engage in some good old hanging, drawing and quartering, just like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fac2Qm13O_I

Back on 4th May 2006 - Transport 21 Fan said:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=51304646#post51304646

Sadly there are almost 30 years behind Cork who still haven't got their railway to Midleton yet.

Back on 24th April 2007 - Westtip said:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=53125667#post53125667

they said but you live in the West how dare you oppose this plan (for the railway to re-open), they said you had better not go to the papers with that idea it could cause us damage - I kid you not - they nearly threatened me

Theres a lot of hot air on this. I have a theory on railways.

"The popularity of a railway with enthusiasts is inversely proportional to the number of passengers carried"

Which...is WHY, when I start a thread on DART and Interconnector, modernisation, privatisation it got to perhaps 16-20 posts, but start something on a branchline reopening, and BOOM, it ballooned.

If enthusiasts are'nt snapping away with cameras, then it works. Get on board.

westtip

karlr42 wrote: »

Assuming this is the poster?

I hope they get planning permission for those posters on the N17. All of us with a little tad of common sense know exactly what will happen north of Athenry - two words really Diddly and squat. It will just take about another decade for WOT to realise their battle is lost....The trainspotters will never win this one.

ItsTheMan

Hi the Citylink does the route in about 3 hours
Does anyone have an idea if the Train service will be quicker..
I believe it will be
GWAY -> LIMERICK
LIMERICK-> L. JUNCTION
JUNCTION -> CORK ??

Thanks !

Carawaystick

well it takes an hour and 50 minutes or so from Limerick to Cork,
40 minutes from Limerick to Ennis
and about 20 minutes from Athenry to Galway according to IÉ's online timetables.....

So the bus will still be faster.

Victor

Via portarlington is probably faster.

KC61

Victor wrote: »

Via portarlington is probably faster.

Well it will probably be something in the region of:

Via WRC:
Galway-Limerick: 1 hour 50 min
Limerick-Lmk Jctn: 27 min
Lkm Jctn-Cork: 1 hour

Add in about 20 min waiting time in stations - 3 hours 40 min

It's very difficult to do via Portarlington - very few Galway trains stop there. You would need to go to Dublin.

dereko1969

2 of the 7 Galway Dublin trains don't stop in Portarlington all the others do

Chris_533976

Citylink advertises 3h15m from Galway to Cork (uses bus lanes of course which elimates some of the jams at Galway and Limerick)

Victor

KC61 wrote: »

It's very difficult to do via Portarlington - very few Galway trains stop there. You would need to go to Dublin.

Ouch - anything from 4h33 to 6h30 at the moment for Galway-Cork.

Typically 1h46 to 1h53 for Galway-Portarlington.

Typically 2h12 to 4h43 for Cork-Portarlington.

Cork-Galway could be done in about 3h58 if a direct train ran, add time for changing trains.

Carawaystick

Victor wrote: »

Cork-Galway could be done in about 3h58 if a direct train ran, add time for changing trains.

Athenry stops a direct route.....
Did you mean changing train ends.....

The Gort - M6 ppp is top of the priority list for the Atlantic corridor, while Gort to Barefield is well under way, which should cut some more time off Citilink's times


The fact there's very bad transport links between Cork and Limerick should in a sane and rational world have the N20 upgrade high up the list of priority but no....

Victor

Carawaystick wrote: »

Athenry stops a direct route.....
Did you mean changing train ends.....

Sorry, I meant that 3h58 is the lowest practical journey time based on current timings and that it would take long if you were getting a connection.

KC61

dereko1969 wrote: »

2 of the 7 Galway Dublin trains don't stop in Portarlington all the others do

But not necessarily when a connecting train could be coming in the opposite direction without requiring a long wait.

jister

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Citylink advertises 3h15m from Galway to Cork (uses bus lanes of course which elimates some of the jams at Galway and Limerick)

One the Gort bypass and Limerick tunnel are complete then they will be under 3 hours.

The railways are going to be in serious trouble in a couple of years. With good motorways from all major cities to Dublin I can a lot of private bus companies coming onstream and beating Irish rail hands down, with shorter times and way cheaper prices.

DWCommuter

Bring it on and teach the so called "management", "engineers" and "spin doctors" in IE/CIE a lesson that will have trainspotters camped outside every TD constituency office in Ireland.

Its all been said before.

westtip

jister wrote: »

One the Gort bypass and Limerick tunnel are complete then they will be under 3 hours.

The railways are going to be in serious trouble in a couple of years. With good motorways from all major cities to Dublin I can a lot of private bus companies coming onstream and beating Irish rail hands down, with shorter times and way cheaper prices.

Yes the improved road between Limerick and Gort is going to make the southern part of the WRC a dead duck from the start for passenger traffic; apart from train spotters and those using travel cards out for the spin on the train and not in any particular rush. An express bus will be able to do the two cities in not much more than an hour with a wet sail and maybe an hour and half at peak times, it won't just be private operators who kill the railways for journey times but CIE buses as well.

As Derek so rightly says it has all been said before -

BTW watch out for those posters on the N17, they might cause you to crash the car!

Victor wrote: »

Cork-Galway could be done in about 3h58 if a direct train ran, add time for changing trains.

Victor whats this "about 3h58 " - don't you mean about 4 hours!

jister

Its not just the WRC that will suffer from the motorways, there won't be much point in Limerick / Dublin, Galway / Dublin either when the bus gets you there quicker and improved comfort.

Buses with a reduced number of seats and more legroom/comfort will hammer the intercity trains.

Filan

So when is it likely the Limerick galway rail link will open?