Western Rail Corridor

Judgement Day

jister wrote: »

Its not just the WRC that will suffer from the motorways, there won't be much point in Limerick / Dublin, Galway / Dublin either when the bus gets you there quicker and improved comfort.

Buses with a reduced number of seats and more legroom/comfort will hammer the intercity trains.

Amazing it's 2009 and buses are suddenly going to be more comfortable than trains! You're obviously not a regular bus user? Perhaps buses will be more comfortable than the 'hybrid' railbus being mooted for the Waterford/Limerick Junction line but even as designed and run by IE trains will always be superior to any type of road alternative. Admittedly, I am sure that IE will be working flat out to reduce any remaining advantages that rail offers over road. :mad:

Nostradamus

Judgement Day wrote: »

Amazing it's 2009 and buses are suddenly going to be more comfortable than trains!

Nope he is 100% correct. The quality of buses is improving all time. The frequecy and choice of services are expanding and the journey times on all the new roads are pretty sensational compared to a few years back. The price is so much more affordadble.

Irish Rail is a dying product outside the Dublin and Cork commuter belts. Have you ever taken the bus from Ballina to Dublin compared to the train? Why anyone of any level of stable psychology would get on a train at Ballina, change at Manulla and pay a kings randsom to go to Dublin when they can get the bus for pocket change and arrive in about the same time.


Now if CIE management and unions offered things like;

Hot decent meals on trains,

Snack bars which do not open and close during a limited part of the journey.

Quite coaches

Late night trains leaving Docklands after concerts going all over the country.

THEN INTER-CITY RAIL MIGHT HAVE A FUTURE.

Folks need transport, not just trains.

Nostradamus

jister wrote: »

Buses with a reduced number of seats and more legroom/comfort will hammer the intercity trains.

They already are. The Sligo train is a ghost train now compared to 2 years back.

spacetweek

Judgement Day wrote: »

Amazing it's 2009 and buses are suddenly going to be more comfortable than trains! You're obviously not a regular bus user? Perhaps buses will be more comfortable than the 'hybrid' railbus being mooted for the Waterford/Limerick Junction line but even as designed and run by IE trains will always be superior to any type of road alternative. Admittedly, I am sure that IE will be working flat out to reduce any remaining advantages that rail offers over road. :mad:

I wouldn't be too sure mate. I've been on buses in places like Argentina and Japan that are better than trains.

Or at least, Irish trains that is

L1011

Judgement Day wrote: »

Amazing it's 2009 and buses are suddenly going to be more comfortable than trains! You're obviously not a regular bus user? Perhaps buses will be more comfortable than the 'hybrid' railbus being mooted for the Waterford/Limerick Junction line but even as designed and run by IE trains will always be superior to any type of road alternative. Admittedly, I am sure that IE will be working flat out to reduce any remaining advantages that rail offers over road. :mad:

Bus Eireann's Irizar coaches are more comfortable than an IE 29000. We've had them for quite a few years. I've not taken a Mk4 but the fact that they've got a tender out to work on reducing the harshness theres a damn good chance that a decent coach is better than them too!

Clearly its you thats not the regular bus user...

SeanW

Judgement Day wrote: »

Amazing it's 2009 and buses are suddenly going to be more comfortable than trains! You're obviously not a regular bus user?

And you must not use the 29000 railcars very much ... talk about Shake Rattle n' Roll. I'd take even the crappiest bus over those rolling garbage cans any day.

black47

Filan wrote: »

So when is it likely the Limerick galway rail link will open?

Anyone heard anything about when it will open. Some mention about late summer

Tech3

black47 wrote: »

Anyone heard anything about when it will open. Some mention about late summer

How long is a journey from Limerick-Galway going to take?

westtip

tech2 wrote: »

How long is a journey from Limerick-Galway going to take?

There is still no timetable published - but the Limerick - Ennis run is now standing at 40 minutes on the IE timetable; which is going to increase by say 2 minutes when trains start stopping at sixmilebridge; and then five stations at Gort, Ardrahan and Craughwell (on the Ennis/Athenry section), and Oranmore (on the Athenry/Galway section). Say 2 minutes stop at each station that's another ten minutes, actual travel distance from Ennis to Galway via Athenry will be about 50 miles, taking into account the trains to Galway have to go out to Athenry on the "Corridor" - lets say travelling at an average of 40 mph (allowing for stopping and starting 5 times between Ennis and Galway), that will be say an hour and 15 minutes the train will be actually moving, plus the ten minutes stopped at stations plus the 42 minutes from Limerick to Ennis - I reckon it could be about 2 hours ten minutes from Limerick to Galway by train with a wet sail and of course guarenteeing no hold ups on the single track into Galway from Athenry. Mind you with the "thousands of commuters" WOT envisage the halting times at each station could be longer as the commuters get wedged into this bustling commuter line......I think not. Twill be nice for the trainspotters and OAPs on their free travel passes having a day out.

Another way to look at it is to use the published timetable that the The intercitys from Athenry to Galway currently take 21 minutes - so factor in a stop at oranmore and stopping and starting again, this part of the journey could take say 27 minutes; and assume the Ennis - Athenry section will about an hour, with stops at Gort, Ardrahan and Craughwell, it really is going to be over the two hour mark from Limerick to Galway no matter which way you look at it. I don't know but is a passing point being put in at Oranmore?

I guess there is going to be a timetable published soon that ties the whole thing together in regard to how the stopping (at Oranmore) trains will dovetail with the Intercities; it really does make you wonder why the whole exercise is being done without double tracking the Athenry Galway section! I wonder wil there be any express trains planned from Limerick to Ennis to Athenry to Galway. The mind boggles.

Get the bus.

Judgement Day

SeanW wrote: »

And you must not use the 29000 railcars very much ... talk about Shake Rattle n' Roll. I'd take even the crappiest bus over those rolling garbage cans any day.

Well I've really stirred some of you up. Hurrah for that anyway!

As it happens I haven't driven for almost 30 years now so have had ample opportunity to savour the delights of Bus Eireann, 29000s, 28000s, 26000s, MkIVs etc.etc. Whilst I detest the sight of any type of commuter railcar outside the Greater Dublin Area I would still maintain that they are more pleasant to travel in than a bus - advantages that spring to mind are leg room, trolley service (theoretically), tables (sometimes), toilets, the ability to walk about, not be coughed all over by other passengers as on buses, more scenic routes and above all the safety factor. During the last couple of years I have had a couple of scary incidents with Bus Eireann drivers who insisted on booting it having near misses. On another well documented occasion quite recently a wheel fell off a B.E. Rosslare/Dublin service!

Nostradamus says that the Sligo line is like a ghost train now with nobody using it but from what I see at Connolly I would dispute this and would suggest that the increased frequency on the line may have spread out the passengers a bit more evenly.

I don't accept that the inter-city product is in dead trouble but it is hard to pin down exact statistics from IE's annual reports. The 2007 one gives a 14% increase in traffic on the Dublin/Cork route with 3 million passenger journeys but that is the only figure that I noted. Overall rail passengers journeys topped 45 million for 2007 but how many of these were inter-city is not clear. Don't get me wrong there is a lot wrong with the way that CIE/IE operate the railways but this does not mean railways are a bad thing per se as some contributors to the Boards seem to believe.

RTE's Liveline programme today with that plank, Damien O'Reilly, covered the trials and tribulations of dog owners not able to bring their dogs on inter-city trains and apart from his total ignorance of how IE operate today this seemingly trivial matter once again highlighted the nonsensical design of the 22000s. No guards van therefore no room for dogs, bicycles, mail or Fastrack. It may seem trivial but once you design away all the useful/flexiblel features of a train you make it more and more irrelevant to the public at large. Drive enough of them away and there will be few complaints when the whole shooting match is closed down! Closing the railways by stealth seems to have been CIE/Government policy for decades or is it just total incompetence? :mad:

westtip

Judgement Day wrote: »

I don't accept that the inter-city product is in dead trouble :mad:

But cross country routes (that don't point at Dublin) are! which is clearly evident from the numbers of passengers using them. Which is why the WRC - which is still what this thread is about - is in fact a complete and utter waste of taxpayers money. It will be massivley under utilised and whilst I can accept the capital cost is not that great in the whole scheme of things the continual cost of subventing it will be a drain on public resources - and lets face it in todays climate this won't be allowed to happen.

Apart from that JD you make some valid points - about mismanagment etc but I don't think the fundamental issue will go away, slow cross country travel on trains you can get up walk about on, do a pee, read your paper on etc - might well be more comfortable than buses but the cost of maintenance of the capital, the rolling stock etc is just not comparable to keeping a bus on the road, and in areas of low density populations, such as we have and competition with the private car, buses no matter how much less comfortable they are than trains are going to keep on winning the economic argument, and with the improved roads the speed argument as well.

StephenM_smc

Nostradamus wrote: »

Have you ever taken the bus from Ballina to Dublin compared to the train? Why anyone of any level of stable psychology would get on a train at Ballina, change at Manulla and pay a kings randsom to go to Dublin when they can get the bus for pocket change and arrive in about the same time.

I make the journey quite regularly. I get to enjoy some sleep on the train, relatively comfortable conditions, food and drink when I am ready for it and I am able to work away on my laptop or read a broadsheet newspaper too.

I cannot do much of that on the bus.

westtip

StephenM_smc wrote: »

I make the journey quite regularly. I get to enjoy some sleep on the train, relatively comfortable conditions, food and drink when I am ready for it and I am able to work away on my laptop or read a broadsheet newspaper too.

I cannot do much of that on the bus.

Can't sleep on a bus? relatively comfortable on a bus - seats are OK I think and improving, I think nodding off is allowed and possible. Food and drink when I am ready for it you really want to pay rip off prices on a train - why not take a sandwich on the bus or train? work away on a laptop - concede this is difficult on a bus - tho not impossible - but tends to be if you are asleep, read a broadsheet on a bus - I do think reading a broadsheet is not yet banned on a bus and is quite possible, although admittedly not as easy as on a train.

I think your points are valid about bus v train - I think most of us would agree that train travel is infinitely more comfortable than bus travel - but the issue really is can we as a small country in deep dark brown stuff financially afford the luxury of subventing slow cross country train travel to the level required to offer an acceptable service? Or do we have to accept that a good quality and increasingly fast bus service is the way things are going to go? If the level of subvention that goes into cross country train travel went into the bus services just what kind of bus service could we have? Ergo re the infamous WRC will it not be the case that fast buses along the upgraded N17 and N18 as and when that jigsaw comes together will in fact make the WRC redundant before it ever re-opens? (in respect of passenger travel that is)

Nostradamus

Judgement Day wrote: »

Nostradamus says that the Sligo line is like a ghost train now with nobody using it but from what I see at Connolly I would dispute this and would suggest that the increased frequency on the line may have spread out the passengers a bit more evenly.

I said compared to a couple of years ago when the frequecy was increased. There are far less people on the Dublin-Sligo train now. However, the N4 has as many cars as ever and the bus eireann Charlestown-Dublin service which I now take instead of the trains, costs me HALF the PRICE and gets there in the about the same time, on a comfortable bus, with a refreshments and toilet break at Longford.

What's part of this do you not understand? The Inter-City train is a luxury for most Irish people now. We are in the midst of an economic depression and not all of us are employed in the public sector and therefore we are forced to live within a certain economic reality.

There is no civil service department, nor QUANGO paying for my train ticket to the next West on Track magical event. I lose money if I take a day of work to listen to some miricle struck priest demanding Irish tax payers fund his red carpet through the Pearly Gates in front of a goups of excited trainspotters from outside the West of Ireland. This still happening while funding to the likes of Crumlin's Children's Hospital is being reduced and bills being passed through the Dail trying to make Blasphemy as jailable offense. Who has their head up their backsides here? People like me, or 'social justice choo-choo/Our Lady of Knock' brigade?

Many Irish people have to live in the real world. The bus is good enough when the cashflow is down and you have to pay your own fare.

The Western Rail Corridor is an offensive and sickening indulgence considered how bad the Irish economy is now. Same for Clonmel - Rosslare (section), Limerick-Ballybrophy. WIPE THEM OFF THE RAIL MAP AND BUILD THE INTERCONNECTOR AND METRO NORTH NOW.

Terminate all Sligo rail services at Longford, Westport and Ballina services at Athlone. Keep the lines open and maintained - only run specials, fully booked services on them such as GAA etc. Open up the bus market to full deregulation. If the regional newspapers, TDs and councillors, WoT, Clergy complain, then let them organise trains and pack them with passengers if they are so sure of the demand. Nothing to stop them from using local financial resources to lease trains for the this "huge demand"...I am sure every business man in Connacht will be dipping in his pocket and every civil servant in the Department or Teaching profressionar in Connacht will be only to happy to have their salary garnish to fund a start-up of these "vital" servvices. Sure they could have a collection box at the Basillica at Knock!

We need improved medical services here in the West and good bus services to get people to them, not empty trains running across the fields.

This is 2009 - deal with it.
If you care about rail transport in Ireland you quickly come to the conclusion it has to be COMMUTERS OR OBLIVION.

Nostradamus

StephenM_smc wrote: »

I make the journey quite regularly. I get to enjoy some sleep on the train, relatively comfortable conditions, food and drink when I am ready for it and I am able to work away on my laptop or read a broadsheet newspaper too.

I cannot do much of that on the bus.

Do you work in civil service? Not being smug or anything, but the only people I know who take the Inter-City trains regulary now are all government employees or are well off.

Nearly everyone else is more concerned about the cost of baked beans at either Tesco or Lldl than with the lavishly expensive indulgences of the train.

StephenM_smc

Nostradamus wrote: »

Do you work in civil service?

Not a chance. I'm a student.

Nostradamus wrote: »

Nearly everyone else is more concerned about the cost of baked beans at either Tesco or Lldl than with the lavishly expensive indulgences of the train.

I have the benefit of a parent who has a good well paying job that is largely un-affected by the recession, so I guess I am exception.

D'Peoples Voice

reading this nonsence (page 8 of 10), you know it would have to be from Jerry Shanahan-a National Officer in Unite:o

Public Transport
We must not forget the role of public transport in contributing to a better environment and a healthier economy. All over the world rail networks are being expanded. We need to do the same. We need more track and more rolling stock in heavily urbanised areas. We need to build the Western Rail Corridor also. It is precisely in recessionary times that these projects should be done.

Nostradamus

StephenM_smc wrote: »

Not a chance. I'm a student.



I have the benefit of a parent who has a good well paying job that is largely un-affected by the recession, so I guess I am exception.

Well then fair enough for being honest. You get student fare discount and parent pays for the ticket. Enjoy it while you can.

Come back to me in 4 years when you have to live like the rest of us and then see if you can afford the train from Ballina to Dublin for full price out of your own pocket (if the service is still running). The economy will be even worse condition then.

Nostradamus

D'Peoples Voice wrote: »

reading this nonsence (page 8 of 10), you know it would have to be from Jerry Shanahan-a National Officer in Unite:o

That's another issue. The only people who are still fretting over their "Carbon Footprint" are they still living in the Celtic Tiger lifestyle. ie: Civil Servants, Politicians, RTE staff, Teachers etc.

The rest of us in the private sector are reducing our electricity bills to save in order to pay the rent or buy dinner, not to smugly declare our compassion for polar bears over mugs of Fair Trade Organic Java and GM-free Carob Muffins at the Green Gourmet wine bar.

FFS, I know people here in Sligo who have lost everything this year as their businesses collasped and they last thing they want is to see empty trains running through Tuam.

It has got to the point now were I consider people who want the Western Rail Corridor to be either deeply deluded, or just self-centered borderline sociopaths lost in an infantile world of childish want. Sorry, but when one looks around at how bad things are for the private sector worker in this country and how obscene and offensive the idea of wasting money on this WRC bull**** what else conclusion can one come to.

westtip

Nostradamus wrote: »

It has got to the point now were I consider people who want the Western Rail Corridor to be either deeply deluded, or just self-centered borderline sociopaths lost in an infantile world of childish want. Sorry, but when one looks around at how bad things are for the private sector worker in this country and how obscene and offensive the idea of wasting money on this WRC bull**** what else conclusion can one come to.

Nosty calm down - I agree with everything you have said in the past few posts its not worth bursing a blood vessel over. The wake up call for the priveliged classes (well paid public sector workers) will come when the IMF and the ECB says no you can't borrow 20 billion a year to pay teachers twice as much as they get paid in other EU states, the same for police and civil servants, you will just have to cut the cloth.... As for the WRC, it won't happen cos we can't afford it and its not necessary and despite the brilliantly managed PR campaign by WOT in which expectations have been raised way beyond the bar; it simply won't happen, there is no money, the gravy train is finnito, even if End Of gets his hands on power and plays the Mayo card....it is not going to happen, the disappointment will come around November for WOT when the cold realisation that it has all been a complete waste of time.

black47

westtip wrote: »

Nosty calm down - I agree with everything you have said in the past few posts its not worth bursing a blood vessel over. The wake up call for the priveliged classes (well paid public sector workers) will come when the IMF and the ECB says no you can't borrow 20 billion a year to pay teachers twice as much as they get paid in other EU states, the same for police and civil servants, you will just have to cut the cloth.... As for the WRC, it won't happen cos we can't afford it and its not necessary and despite the brilliantly managed PR campaign by WOT in which expectations have been raised way beyond the bar; it simply won't happen, there is no money, the gravy train is finnito, even if End Of gets his hands on power and plays the Mayo card....it is not going to happen, the disappointment will come around November for WOT when the cold realisation that it has all been a complete waste of time.

Boards.ie should definitely sponser you to take the maiden journey form Athenry to Limerick when the service opens up. Perhaps there could be a a live link where you could comment on every enjoyable mile!

Rawr

black47 wrote: »

Boards.ie should definitely sponser you to take the maiden journey form Athenry to Limerick when the service opens up. Perhaps there could be a a live link where you could comment on every enjoyable mile!

I would second the live link idea Black47, but merely to see westip rip into West on Track.

Sure, we should make it pay-per-view!

The Rumble on the Rail-Line! Doomesday on a DMU! Press the RED button now to order your subscription to the fight of the century!

IIMII

Rawr wrote: »

The Rumble on the Rail-Line! Doomesday on a DMU! Press the RED button now to order your subscription to the fight of the century!

Trouble in the bubble? I probable will take a spin on it when it opens - I've read so much about it at this stage, why not. I'd say alot of the initial traffic will be down to curiousity

dowlingm

I wonder if anyone will drive from Limerick Colbert to Galway on the first day and compare travel times? (Departing on the scheduled time exactly - if the train is late leaving that is the customer delayed too)

Judgement Day

dowlingm wrote: »

I wonder if anyone will drive from Limerick Colbert to Galway on the first day and compare travel times? (Departing on the scheduled time exactly - if the train is late leaving that is the customer delayed too)

If you want timings I'm sure there will be many of the camera swinging rail 'enthusiast' brigade chasing the first train, as few enough of them ever travel by train except on railtours and 'last' trains. Anyway, I suppose it won't be long before a Farewell to the WRC special will be operated by the Irish Railway Record Society.

dowlingm

they're no good - remember I said "Limerick to Galway" not Limerick to somewhere east of Galway and then reversing back into the city - there's no way those lads will miss the excitement of the former cattle loading docks of south Galway with a different sort of self-loading freight

pointofnoreturn

Nostradamus wrote: »

Do you work in civil service? Not being smug or anything, but the only people I know who take the Inter-City trains regulary now are all government employees or are well off.

Nearly everyone else is more concerned about the cost of baked beans at either Tesco or Lldl than with the lavishly expensive indulgences of the train.

Sure the trains are very expensive here! I only take it if i can get e15 or e20 online ticket, other then that it just doesn't justify, I happily pay more of the high-speed trains in Europe then pay in Ireland, the new trains don't go faster or even aren't that all comfortable. If they had service offers such as free travel after 7pm for people under 25, and half-price for 100e a year then maybe i'd make the effort to travel by public transport. but unfortunately there is nothing public about public transport in Ireland except for the people that get paid the high wage!

glineli

and with the road soon going to be 120kph, buses will take even less time!!!

crocro

glineli wrote: »

and with the road soon going to be 120kph, buses will take even less time!!!

Sadly, buses in ireland are limited to 80km/h. In the UK the limit is 112km/h for buses on motorways.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070304

veryangryman

crocro wrote: »

Sadly, buses in ireland are limited to 80km/h. In the UK the limit is 112km/h for buses on motorways.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070304

Get a bus from Athlone to Dublin. After Kilcock, the bus does 120ish no exceptions