Western Rail Corridor

crocro

The low limit for Irish buses should be changed. Some of the timetables seem to require drivers to break the law which is unfair.

munchkin_utd

it is

from 1st February 2009 speed limits for buses/coaches, both single and double deck, are increased on motorways and dual carriageways to 100kph.

http://garaiste.yuku.com/topic/7518

Victor

munchkin_utd wrote: »

it is http://garaiste.yuku.com/topic/7518

http://www.attorneygeneral.ie/esi/2008/B26604.pdf

Thats curious, a 3,500kg GVW goods vehicles is limited to 80km/h. A 20,000kg GVW coach with ~55 people with few seat belts is limited to 100km/h.

IIMII

Victor wrote: »

http://www.attorneygeneral.ie/esi/2008/B26604.pdf

Thats curious, a 3,500kg GVW goods vehicles is limited to 80km/h. A 20,000kg GVW coach with ~55 people with few seat belts is limited to 100km/h.

I'd imagine instability would be factor with goods vehicles, they can relatively top heavy when loaded (to the ceiling)

Jim Martin

On enquiring at Ennis Stn yesterday of a definite date when the Galway service is to commence, the booking office clerk replied "December" due to Gort Stn probs!

rameire

page 82 of 84 of an board snip report, recommends there should be no further development of the western rail corridor.

Judgement Day

Hot from the RTE website: Bord snip recommends no further development of WRC, closure of lightly used lines and introduction of replacement bus services and CIE to find €50m in cuts through 'operating efficiencies'. Back to the 1950's..........................I presume senior CIE personnel will still have expensive company cars. :mad::mad:


I wonder if no further development of the WRC means don't open the existing Ennis/Athenry section?

rameire

also suggests that lightly used rail lines should be closed and replaced with bus services.

SeanW

Judgement Day wrote: »

Hot from the RTE website: Bord snip recommends no further development of WRC, closure of lightly used lines and introduction of replacement bus services and CIE to find €50m in cuts through 'operating efficiencies'. Back to the 1950's..........................I presume senior CIE personnel will still have expensive company cars. :mad::mad:


I wonder if no further development of the WRC means don't open the existing Ennis/Athenry section?

No, the Ennis-Athenry section is already under construction and provided for, plus it has a half a chance of actually working.

While I disagree with closing the "lightly used lines" as I don't think they were ever run or funded properly, i.e. not given a chance, I am happy they put a damp cloud over the nutcase plans to expand the Western Rail Corridor, particularly the parts North of Tuam, plans which were just ... wrong ... on so many levels.

John Daniels

Who is going to use it?? The DART in Dublin is quiet most of the day so any western rail corridor will be empty most of the year...

dowlingm

Cancelling Athenry-Ennis capital works would probably not save much as there are probably material/equipment contracts which have to paid either way. But that should put paid to Tuam.

That said, if some counties want to retain rail they can pay IE to maintain it - Amtrak has agreements with some US states to pay for services that Amtrak alone can't justify.

T Corolla

John Daniels wrote: »

Who is going to use it?? The DART in Dublin is quiet most of the day so any western rail corridor will be empty most of the year...

The reason for this is price I paide 4:20 offpeak from Connolly to Pearce for 15 minute journey. IMO the Dart should be privatised and the rail lines left in the care of Irish rail. It time for change. It would be great to see the Ennis to Athenry line outsourced to a private comany and ran and to see whether it will be profitable or not. The Sligo to Dublin services is considered a loss making service not from where I see it anytime I use it leaving Mullingar in the last six months I had to stand up or was lucky to get a seat all that to someone in Irish rail signing off on the 10 euro day return fair best thing since sliced bread

icdg

T Corolla wrote: »

The reason for this is price I paide 4:20 offpeak from Connolly to Pearce for 15 minute journey. IMO the Dart should be privatised and the rail lines left in the care of Irish rail. It time for change. It would be great to see the Ennis to Athenry line outsourced to a private comany and ran and to see whether it will be profitable or not. The Sligo to Dublin services is considered a loss making service not from where I see it anytime I use it leaving Mullingar in the last six months I had to stand up or was lucky to get a seat all that to someone in Irish rail signing off on the 10 euro day return fair best thing since sliced bread

The problem with outsourcing one or two lines is that unless you do it properly you will break the network. If you just privatised the DART on its own, you would break the ability of people say, to buy a rail ticket from Drumcondra to Grand Canal Dock. Plus Irish Rail would immediately start allocating the DART less and less, and more unfavourable, train paths.

No, if you were to go down that route (and given the GB experience, I'm not advocating it) you would need to set up a Rail Regulator, a clearing house for tickets to allow through ticketing to continue (similar to GB's Rail Settlement Plan) and seperation of tracks and train operations to give all operators a level playing field. Like I said, I wouldn't advocate this at all given the track record of rail privatisation:

GB: For the most part deemed a failure - trains privately operated but as time has gone on has become and more publically managed. Railtrack virtually renationalised:

New Zealand: NZ Railways now back in public ownership after an unhappy life in the private sector as Toll NZ...

Germany: Some privatisation of local routes, but InterCity operations still firmly in Deutsche Bahn's hands. Flotation of DB postponed so many times that I doubt it will ever happen.

T Corolla

I too have heard of the Englands problems with privatisation. How about getting the likes of Citylink to run the Limerick to Galway railway and let them co-ordinate the rail and bus service together and see would this be sucessfull. The WRC will not get up and going if it is to be ran by Irish Rail.
There has to be ways of running these lines more efficently

westtip

Jim Martin wrote: »

On enquiring at Ennis Stn yesterday of a definite date when the Galway service is to commence, the booking office clerk replied "December" due to Gort Stn probs!

Was that december 2009 or 2010 or .....who cares.

black47

Jim Martin wrote: »

On enquiring at Ennis Stn yesterday of a definite date when the Galway service is to commence, the booking office clerk replied "December" due to Gort Stn probs!

On enquiring previously on a possible timeframe from Athenry to Cork for WRC, changing at Limerick and Limerick junction, I told of a 3 hr 30 mins estimation by IE.

Bus Eireann currently takes 4 hrs 30 mins form Galway to Cork stopping at Shannon. Some rumour that the private citibus private service has been cancelled. That used to do the journey in about 3 hrs 45 minutes

westtip

black47 wrote: »

Boards.ie should definitely sponser you to take the maiden journey form Athenry to Limerick when the service opens up. Perhaps there could be a a live link where you could comment on every enjoyable mile!

err.... I am baffled??? anyway I am sure it will be "quite a nice trip on the train" through some lovely countryside; and all the Train spotters with their ham sandwiches and flasks of tea will be on board, in fact in the summer with an old steamer running along it could well be a good day out but as I have always said - it just cannot be realistically justified in todays climate or in the current pattern of dispersed living we have in the west.

In fact the idea of an old steamer rolling up and down this line is probably the height of it in terms of making the line a success for train tourists, cos the amount of commuters and real users of this line are going to be thin on the ground.

black47

rameire wrote: »

page 82 of 84 of an board snip report, recommends there should be no further development of the western rail corridor.

http://www.westontrack.com/news207.htm

West on track boys not going down without a fight it would appear

Chris_533976

black47 wrote: »

On enquiring previously on a possible timeframe from Athenry to Cork for WRC, changing at Limerick and Limerick junction, I told of a 3 hr 30 mins estimation by IE.

Bus Eireann currently takes 4 hrs 30 mins form Galway to Cork stopping at Shannon. Some rumour that the private citibus private service has been cancelled. That used to do the journey in about 3 hrs 45 minutes

Citylink do Galway to Cork in 3h 15m as it stands. And traffic isnt as much of a deal due to bus lanes in Galway and Limerick.

So IE are opening a service that'll be slower than the bus from day one, not even counting the changes of train that wont line up perfectly anyway.

Judgement Day

black47 wrote: »

http://www.westontrack.com/news207.htm

West on track boys not going down without a fight it would appear

Well West on Track got one thing right at least - Colm McCarthy is a ........... (insert your own word) genius!

Have a look at these links to learn a bit more about this man and his visionary intelligence:

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2004/03/07/story36923675.asp

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/93211

Not only did he campaign against the Luas but the DART as well ! We would all still be living in the trees if right wing economists like him ruled the roost! You will note that one of his drinking buddies was another well known anti-rail campaigner - Sean Barrett - need I say more. If FF and the Greens try and force through the more extreme elements of the Bord Snip proposals they will be unelectable for generations.

www.irishrailways.blogspot.com .....for the latest rant!

westtip

Judgement Day wrote: »

If FF and the Greens try and force through the more extreme elements of the Bord Snip proposals they will be unelectable for generations.

!

The decision on whether or not the WRC goes ahead will have no bearing on election voting patterns in the west, cos most of us in the west couldn't give a t**s if it does happen or not. As for the rest of the country it is so far down the agenda it is missing from the thought process. I note in the WOT web news release they state:

"The first phase of the Western Rail Corridor will open this September."

They can't even get their facts right here, I spoke with ennis station today - and the manager there said it is not going to open until December possibly later. Again the false information put into the public domain by WOT is all about public expectation management, they have provided false information in their press release which no doubt none of the local western press will actually check up on. If the line were opening in September a timetable would at least be available - it isn't.

In the meantime, McCarthy has nailed another coffin into the forlorn WOT hope of the WRC north of Athenry, the feasibility studies (announced in May by the Minister of Transpoprt at a WOT conference) on the Athenry - tuam and Tuam - claremorris sections will do the same. The school teachers retired civil servants and octogenarian priest will continue the good fight for WOT, but guess what lads you are knocking your heads agains the proverbial brick wall. It won't happen so give up gracefully.

pointofnoreturn

westtip wrote: »

The decision on whether or not the WRC goes ahead will have no bearing on election voting patterns in the west, cos most of us in the west couldn't give a t**s if it does happen or not. As for the rest of the country it is so far down the agenda it is missing from the thought process. I note in the WOT web news release they state:

"The first phase of the Western Rail Corridor will open this September."

They can't even get their facts right here, I spoke with ennis station today - and the manager there said it is not going to open until December possibly later. Again the false information put into the public domain by WOT is all about public expectation management, they have provided false information in their press release which no doubt none of the local western press will actually check up on. If the line were opening in September a timetable would at least be available - it isn't.

In the meantime, McCarthy has nailed another coffin into the forlorn WOT hope of the WRC north of Athenry, the feasibility studies (announced in May by the Minister of Transpoprt at a WOT conference) on the Athenry - tuam and Tuam - claremorris sections will do the same. The school teachers retired civil servants and octogenarian priest will continue the good fight for WOT, but guess what lads you are knocking your heads agains the proverbial brick wall. It won't happen so give up gracefully.

Maybe it will happen or not!, but why do you care anyways, you said no one gives a s*h*i*t, so let the s*h*i*t, happen!

I don't live in Ireland any more but i know from looking at other countries the way they operate there rail network, it's worth it! Public Infrastructure never makes money directly, it is in-direct investment to support the country and people, we should see it that way, because we really don't have a infrastructure making any money from.

So see what it brings in 10yrs.

westtip

pointofnoreturn wrote: »

Maybe it will happen or not!, but why do you care anyways, you said no one gives a s*h*i*t, so let the s*h*i*t, happen!

I don't live in Ireland any more but i know from looking at other countries the way they operate there rail network, it's worth it! Public Infrastructure never makes money directly, it is in-direct investment to support the country and people, we should see it that way, because we really don't have a infrastructure making any money from.

So see what it brings in 10yrs.

You don't get the point of my arguments against the WRC; sure I accept your view that its always good to get infrastructure in and up and running, and measuring the contribution of infrastructure is an inexact art, but the pot for investment is only so big, and the investment (and subsequent subvention required) in the WRC could be spent so much more effectively. Subventing the bus services in the west would have a much greater impact on the population living here and provide a more frequent service. Re the capital costs of this project, well the Atlantic Corridor Road project is of much more signifigance to the people of the west than the WRC will ever be; and should be the priority for the west and forget this distraction of the WRC - A good quality DC from Letterkenny to Cork will not only massively improve supply chain efficiencies for whats left of our manufacturing companies, our retailers and help with the tourist industry it will bring health services like hospitals closer to the people. In Sligo the Cancer unit is being closed down, it is a hugely emotive issue in the north west, it largely comes down to an issue of critical mass of population - but if there were a good quality dc from Sligo to Galway - then in effect (time), the cancer unit in Galway would between 80/90 minutes away by car or health based transport taking patients to this unit, thats from Sligo, from somewhere south of Sligo, like Tobercurry about an hour. These travel times would compare favourably with most travel times to specialist units from areas of Dublin into the specialist units of hospitals in the city. You need to look at one piece of infrastucture and tie it in to othe decisions. We need some joined up thinking about infrastructure, we only have so much to spend and we need to spend it wisely. At the moment, WRC is luxury. One we cannot afford.

It is a pity our Minister of Transport cannot have the courage to stand up and say - we are abondonning the WRC project north of Athenry -however we are bringing forward and giving greater priorty to the Atlantic Road Corridor, and if the Minisiter of Health stood up and said this will bring the cancer services closer to the people of Sligo - and by the way save a lot of lives on the N17, and if she added turning the WRC into a Greenway will save lives of pedestrians, cyclists and add to our overall well being as a nation, and if the Minister of Tourism said -and it will increase tourism potential in the west.

With regard to the inexact art of infrastructure contribution, I do actually believe my long held argument about turning the WRC into a Greenway for walking and cycling would actually bring a great deal more money into the west in tourist spend (both domestic and incoming tourists) than the railway ever will, and on this subject there has been a great deal written by Tourism Economists on the value of the walking and cycling tourist.

I can see your point of view, however, in the current economic situation I am afraid the WRC is simply not a runner and there are alternatives which add a great deal more value to our society.

KC61

westtip wrote: »

The decision on whether or not the WRC goes ahead will have no bearing on election voting patterns in the west, cos most of us in the west couldn't give a t**s if it does happen or not. As for the rest of the country it is so far down the agenda it is missing from the thought process. I note in the WOT web news release they state:

"The first phase of the Western Rail Corridor will open this September."

They can't even get their facts right here, I spoke with ennis station today - and the manager there said it is not going to open until December possibly later. Again the false information put into the public domain by WOT is all about public expectation management, they have provided false information in their press release which no doubt none of the local western press will actually check up on. If the line were opening in September a timetable would at least be available - it isn't.

In the meantime, McCarthy has nailed another coffin into the forlorn WOT hope of the WRC north of Athenry, the feasibility studies (announced in May by the Minister of Transpoprt at a WOT conference) on the Athenry - tuam and Tuam - claremorris sections will do the same. The school teachers retired civil servants and octogenarian priest will continue the good fight for WOT, but guess what lads you are knocking your heads agains the proverbial brick wall. It won't happen so give up gracefully.

Westtip I wouldn't be so sure about that. In practice in Irish Rail the local station staff tend not to get the information about timetables or services until it is finalised at head office. I would suggest emailing the WRC Project Office for a more accurate timeline (wrc@irishrail.ie).

As I stated in post 2038 above (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=60612101&postcount=2038)
timetabling for this route is nowhere near as easy as the Midleton line, as it has to interact with services on the Dublin/Galway, Limerick/Limerick Junction and Dublin/Cork lines.

The last date I heard for implementation of the new timetable is the end of September (including WRC) and as yet I don't believe that has changed. The normal practice is for the timetable to be finalised internally about two months before coming into effect and being made public about a month in advance of coming into effect.

There is usually an immense amount of drafting and redrafting schedules and rosters before a final version is arrived at, and the company tends to baulk from making the schedule public until it has been finalised. I would imagine that the process is still ongoing. We should see the timetables in mid-August I would reckon. There are some fairly fundamental changes happening I understand with massive reorganisation of set rosters, and some services switching to 3-coach operation. None of this is straightforward, and as a result I wouldn't be too surprised that no information is available yet.

westtip

KC61 wrote: »

Westtip I wouldn't be so sure about that. In practice in Irish Rail the local station staff tend not to get the information about timetables or services until it is finalised at head office. I would suggest emailing the WRC Project Office for a more accurate timeline (wrc@irishrail.ie).

As I stated in post 2038 above (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=60612101&postcount=2038)
timetabling for this route is nowhere near as easy as the Midleton line, as it has to interact with services on the Dublin/Galway, Limerick/Limerick Junction and Dublin/Cork lines.

The last date I heard for implementation of the new timetable is the end of September (including WRC) and as yet I don't believe that has changed. The normal practice is for the timetable to be finalised internally about two months before coming into effect and being made public about a month in advance of coming into effect.

There is usually an immense amount of drafting and redrafting schedules and rosters before a final version is arrived at, and the company tends to baulk from making the schedule public until it has been finalised. I would imagine that the process is still ongoing. We should see the timetables in mid-August I would reckon. There are some fairly fundamental changes happening I understand with massive reorganisation of set rosters, and some services switching to 3-coach operation. None of this is straightforward, and as a result I wouldn't be too surprised that no information is available yet.

Yes good point. Most organisations never let the minnions know too much before things happen! I think you are going to see the need for passengers to make changes at Athenry to connect with the Galway bound Dublin trains, or lengthy waits in Athenry station to allow Dublin bound trains our of Galway, which will make the total journey time to Galway even longer than one might expect. Certainly the Dublin trains will have to have priority on the single track from Athenry to Galway. I think what might be of interest when this gets up and running will be the number of Dublin bound passengers from Ennis switch to going Ennis/Athenry/dublin rather than Ennis/Limerick/Dublin - which effecitvely just means a shift of passengers from the southern half of WRC to northern section of WRC (ie does not increase passenger numbers); there may be some time advantage in it for Ennis-dublin passengers, I don't know. Anway, It hardly justifies the project, although this part of the line may work - the rest of it is a fairy tale.

KC61

westtip wrote: »

Yes good point. Most organisations never let the minnions know too much before things happen!

Well I was trying to be tactful in my explanation!!

westtip wrote: »

I think you are going to see the need for passengers to make changes at Athenry to connect with the Galway bound Dublin trains, or lengthy waits in Athenry station to allow Dublin bound trains our of Galway, which will make the total journey time to Galway even longer than one might expect. Certainly the Dublin trains will have to have priority on the single track from Athenry to Galway. I think what might be of interest when this gets up and running will be the number of Dublin bound passengers from Ennis switch to going Ennis/Athenry/dublin rather than Ennis/Limerick/Dublin - which effecitvely just means a shift of passengers from the southern half of WRC to northern section of WRC (ie does not increase passenger numbers); there may be some time advantage in it for Ennis-dublin passengers, I don't know. Anway, It hardly justifies the project, although this part of the line may work - the rest of it is a fairy tale.

I wouldn't expect lengthy waits at Athenry at all, other than maybe a 4 or 5 minute turnaround. There is currently scope for at least four trains per hour between Athenry and Galway, which leaves plenty of free paths for WRC services. As far as I am aware the intention is for direct services with no change at Athenry.

Genuinely I think that we will just have to wait and see what the schedule is. I certainly would not read anything into the fact that the schedules have not been published as yet. And as far as I am aware the end of September remains the implementation date.

westtip

http://www.westparkshannon.com/Userfiles/090619-ministers-speech-to-atlantic-way-19-6-09.pdf

Interesting to read between the lines on this press release about WRC and the McCarthy report - for the first time ever, I think WOT have release information which does not mention the longer term objective of phase 4 (Claremorris/Collooney), the following para states:

"

This is exactly the type of public transport, which must be prioritized during times of economy downturn, linking as it does the gateway cities of Limerick and Galway, with the Hub towns of Tuam, Ballina and Castlebar, together with Claremorris and Westport".

So is this a slip up by WOT? Is this a sign that they know the final phase will never happen?

On the Manulla Junction - Ballina section for once I have to agree with WOT - this line is remaining open not for passenger services but the freight it carries, although it may actually be cheaper to run a bus service for the passenger service and leave the line as a freight only line. Not something I would like to see but could fully understand.

westtip

Here is anothe snippet in the thoughts of Mr. Dempsey thanks to Tech 2 who quoted this speech on the Ennis-Galway N18 thread:

"

Dempsey seems to be confident of the N17/N18 scheme starting construction next year from reading this PDF recently:

Anyway here is anothe snippet in the thoughts of Mr. Dempsey thanks to Tech 2 who quoted this speech on the Ennis-Galway N18 thread:

"

Dempsey seems to be confident of the N17/N18 scheme starting construction next year from reading this PDF recently:

http://www.westparkshannon.com/Userf...ay-19-6-09.pdf


Quote:
Good progress has already been made with this new PPP programme and the N17/N18 Gort-Tuam project is already at procurement stage and you can expect to see construction next year

Another broken promise in the pipeline perhaps".

As said over that thread - yet more intrigue as the minister making a speech in the Shannon area mentioned Ports, Air Travel and Road Infrastructure to the region but not a mention of the WRC - me thinks a deliberate ploy to simply put it in the bottom draw of insignificant items for the agenda. His short speech was very positive about the N17/18 Gort Tuam bypass - one wonders if this project starts next year (BTW I don't believe for one minute it will), how will this effect the WOT campaign?

serfboard

westtip wrote: »

His short speech was very positive about the N17/18 Gort Tuam bypass - one wonders if this project starts next year (BTW I don't believe for one minute it will), how will this effect the WOT campaign?

To paraphrase an ad from years ago:

"Gort-Tuam bypass - kills the WRC north of Athenry - DEAD".

It's whether road projects extend north of Tuam, though, that will really kill it.

Politically speaking, I'd say Dempsey would love to see this started. The Greens are just itching to get their hands on Transport, and if they do, rail will get preference over road. If a project is sanctioned though, there won't be anything they can do about it.

Victor

http://www.westontrack.com/news207.htm

Mr. McCarthy’s longstanding antipathy towards rail transport is best illustrated by the fact that he conducted a similar media campaign against the opening of the Luas in Dublin which he predicted would fail miserably and carry only 100,000 passengers. In its first year the Luas exceeded that figure by a factor of more than 10, going on to become one of the most successful public transport projects ever delivered in this country.

Luas carries up to 100,000 passengers per day.