Western Rail Corridor

westtip

Victor wrote: »

http://www.westontrack.com/news207.htmLuas carries up to 100,000 passengers per day.

Victor no doubt Mr McCarthy made a bloomer on his vision of the Luas; however lets not get silly and start comparing a suburban to city centre light rail transit service with the WRC, Four words needed when it comes to rail planning: Critical Mass of Population.

westtip

serfboard wrote: »

To paraphrase an ad from years ago:

"Gort-Tuam bypass - kills the WRC north of Athenry - DEAD".

It's whether road projects extend north of Tuam, though, that will really kill it.

.

Gort Tuam as DC would deffo kill off WRC, north of Tuam the N17 is not too bad for a few miles and then you run onto the Claremorris/Knock bypass; a good road which should have been built as HQDC, but is nevertheless a fairly painless experience to drive along, and this runs up past Kilkelly. The road needs upgrading between Knock airport and Tubercurry, which is on the agenda - but the critical part of the N17/18 to do before this section is Gort - Tuam - if that is built yes the WRC north of Athenry will be as dead as john cleeses parrot. dead dead and very dead. I think you are right about the political agenda as well.

Tableman

Gort Tuam as DC

Whats DC?

Tech3

Tableman wrote: »

Whats DC?

dual carriageway

see here for others:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055535436

Judgement Day

Mary Wilson and the appalling RTE 'Drivetime' programme just had a feature on the WRC, An Bord Snip rail closures and WOT. To say that the heavily promoted programme was superficial does not do justice to the word. The WOT spokesman lapped it up to IE saying that they were the best thing since sliced bread - bet he won't be saying that after a few months of their WRC operations. Mary Wilson rambled on about us all being aware of disused rail sidings around the country and the programme went downhill from there on.........God help us between 'The Paper of Record' ho,ho,ho..and RTE, it is no wonder the country is banjaxed!!! They wouldn't know how to investigate a story to save their lives. :mad:

westtip

Judgement Day wrote: »

Mary Wilson and the appalling RTE 'Drivetime' programme just had a feature on the WRC, An Bord Snip rail closures and WOT. To say that the heavily promoted programme was superficial does not do justice to the word. The WOT spokesman lapped it up to IE saying that they were the best thing since sliced bread - bet he won't be saying that after a few months of their WRC operations. Mary Wilson rambled on about us all being aware of disused rail sidings around the country and the programme went downhill from there on.........God help us between 'The Paper of Record' ho,ho,ho..and RTE, it is no wonder the country is banjaxed!!! They wouldn't know how to investigate a story to save their lives. :mad:

Yes JD just listened to the Drivel-time replay on the RTE Web site to CR from WOT reading from the script he uses in the videos on the WOT Youtube videos - one thing you have to admire about this organisation is they stay on message; the constant mantra about the cost per mile being so "cheap" but never a mention of the passengers per mile that will use this service. (he wouldn't compare that kind of figure with Luas or Dart would he?) They also constantly remind the Govt through the media that this is a committment of T21 - well hold on a second there is now a queue for the T21 projects that will and won't go ahead. There is never any negative talk from WOT - ie build up expectations tell the people it is going to happen and make believe it will happen eg: he spoke about Athenry-Tuam and Tuam-Claremorris section as a done deal - something along the lines of "the surveys are being done and work will start next year" The reality as the Minister of Transport said in May this year is that the two new studies are in fact feasibility studies and dependent on the success of Ennis - Athenry - Galway, but not a mention of this actual scenario from WOT. I have emailed Drivel-time - perhaps they will give an alternative view tonight!

DWCommuter

In the course of writing my book, (on many rail matters) I've spent a lot of time pondering over my involvement with the WRC since the grand denunciation in 2004. This thread has provided great memories, fascinating insights and opinions. But I think its important that the non-supporters of the WRC find an alternative outlet to channel their beliefs. The WRC has been the focus of a biased media campaign. WOT have utilised the media to put across a non-challenged viewpoint. While the Government pay lip service to them based on a threatened back bench revolt by western TDs, many of us here have posted to our hearts content without any form of organised presentation. So...

Im willing to produce an online video that finally "outs" the WRC for what it is. Therefore I need willing volunteers to assist in its production. I have all the equipment and expertise to make the video. But I'd like to hear from those that would like to have some input into the script. I don't want it to be an opinion delivered by me alone and lets face it, a lot of you here have expressed some great stuff over the course of 2000 posts.

Going even further the Video could be an integral part of a web site dedicated to an "alternative" view of the WRC. But Im not prepared to do it all on my own. I'll produce the video if anyone is interested in getting involved with the background work.

Let me know.

StephenM_smc

DWCommuter wrote: »

The WRC has been the focus of a biased media campaign. WOT have utilised the media to put across a non-challenged viewpoint.

Will the video and website be presented objectively, or will it be basied in order to "out" the WRC?

Sponge Bob

I am from the West , lash it up somewhere private ( under NDA) and I will 'critique' it for you DWC , I don't think you are afraid of the Sponge !

Zoney

To be honest if such a video is too critical, it will merely play into WOT's hands. I think support in the region is not so very great - even some supporters probably don't expect anything to happen. But an ill-considered propaganda piece against it could well fire people up.

DWCommuter: for all the long time you've been involved in all this and following it - I don't know that you have yet grasped the aspects of the Irish psyche involved.

Most of all, I think let sleeping dogs lie - surely it is now pretty much set in stone that nothing will be happening north of Athenry (or at the worst, north of Tuam). I don't personally believe there ever was any prospect of it - certainly Claremorris-Collooney was an absolute pipe-dream even had the boom continued.

Ennis-Athenry/Limerick-Galway will either work (in which case the naysayers will be proved wrong and there might be potential in the future for Tuam commuter services) or it won't (absolutely cementing a lack of further openings north of Athenry).

Quite frankly I think it is foolishness that this thread has been permitted to go on so long - if there was any new developments on the topic they should have justified new threads to avoid dredging up the same old baggage.

Nostradamus

Zoney wrote: »

I don't know that you have yet grasped the aspects of the Irish psyche involved.

Really? My Irish psyche prefers reality over fantasy anyday.

westtip

Zoney wrote: »

To be honest if such a video is too critical, it will merely play into WOT's hands. I think support in the region is not so very great - even some supporters probably don't expect anything to happen. But an ill-considered propaganda piece against it could well fire people up..

DW this is a fair comment - is it really worth it?

Zoney wrote: »

Most of all, I think let sleeping dogs lie - surely it is now pretty much set in stone that nothing will be happening north of Athenry (or at the worst, north of Tuam). I don't personally believe there ever was any prospect of it - certainly Claremorris-Collooney was an absolute pipe-dream even had the boom continued...

The problem is the sleeping dog of WOT will never lie down - even though I agree with all you say above.

Zoney wrote: »

Ennis-Athenry/Limerick-Galway will either work (in which case the naysayers will be proved wrong and there might be potential in the future for Tuam commuter services) or it won't (absolutely cementing a lack of further openings north of Athenry)....

Exactly - and methinks IE will use the lack of use onf Ennis/Athenry/Galway to put the project north of Athenry to sleep.

Zoney wrote: »

Quite frankly I think it is foolishness that this thread has been permitted to go on so long - if there was any new developments on the topic they should have justified new threads to avoid dredging up the same old baggage.

Come off it! this thread is now an institution of the boards! In fact it deserves a sticky of sheer endurance. BTW what was the OP all about where are you Sligoliner??

DW I think if there is going to be an approach to this one it has to be a positive one:

What are the Wests priorities - and lets face it along this north south route the priority is the N17/18/20

What benefits will the Atlantic Road Corridor bring?? - well endless is the answer to that question.

What benefits will the WRC bring? - well count them on one hand.

We need to be responsible and cut our cloth according to our means - so the argument against WRC methinks centres on what is the best option for the west - the Atlantic Road Corridor - for the greater good of all the people or the WRC for the greater good of a few. Lets face it the West has to decide which - one or the other, because the WRC is distracting from what is really important out here. I am pretty sure I know what Minister Dempsey wants, and there are a lot more votes in roads than re-opened railways. Really the road lobby needs to be more vocal and take the share of voice away from WOT.

For example these ridiculous posters put up without planning permission on the N17 about the WRC, well why not have a counter set of posters up which says: Railway or Road. Which would you prefer given the choice? A good road upgraded or an old rail track upgraded - Putting this stark reality in front of people and the crumbling edifice of support WOT claim to have will vanish; actually I think rather than a public campaign against WOT which may backfire - the campaign needs to be quietly run to influence key people in the region and decision making process. Who can manage such a campaign - I don't know - I really have not got the time nor the resources.

DWCommuter

Obviously there isn't much interest in making a lasting record of the "alternative" view to that put across by the WOT campaign. This thread will disappear into infinity and all that will remain are the small pockets of media coverage afforded to those who were prepared to question the wisdom of reopening the WRC, along with a chapter in a book that will no doubt be quickly forgotten. (But at least the National Library will always have a copy.:D)

I proposed the idea as a method of creating an everlasting account of why the WRC was a poor project in transport terms and why it dominated national debate about transport issues to a degree that it made fun of what was actually needed in the country. While we may be in recession now and the WRC north of Athenry looks doomed, do not for a minute think that the next generation won't be beaten to death by a similar campaign and history will be repeating itself all over again. The WRC, since the closure of the Claremorris - Colooney stretch has spanned across at least two generations. I myself was only 10 years of age in 1981 when the first report and recommendation for reopening was drawn up. Only in the last 5 years was there a rebuttal of the proposal. It would have been very responsible to leave the next generation with an alternate viewpoint put across in a professional and non-hysterical fashion.

I take offense at what I proposed being portrayed as ill-considered propaganda. I also take offense at the suggestion that I don't grasp the "Psyche" involved. My own opinion stems from the psyche involved in all of this, from parish pump politics to a west of Ireland belief that they are the poor relations. An attitude that has been ingrained over a period of 800 years. The western "moan" is an outdated card and actually holds back real progress. Its a tradition that is not shared by the celtic tiger generation that saw work, modernisation and development in the west lead to a concerted effort to attract people from the east to relocate there on the basis of quality of life etc etc. The west of Ireland seen the boom times aswell. FACT!

I certainly wasn't planning some cheap propaganda ridden piece that stank of an agenda. I never had an agenda in relation to the WRC. I simply sided with a viewpoint that presented a valid argument that came about as a result of research, debate and rational conclusion. If one wants to talk about propaganda then look no further than the entire WOT campaign. A campaign that refused to debate the issue with an alternative viewpoint. A campaign that locked itself inside its own aims and was aided and abetted by a naieve and willing media and a Government that feared rebellion from within. (the western poor mouth agenda kicked in again.)

We may let sleeping dogs lie for now, but your children will be listening to the same ****e in the years ahead and just like now the WRC will steal funding, resources and invaluable media coverage to the detriment of projects badly needed and justified elsewhere.

StephenM_smc

Did a whole pile of posts get deleted between DWCommuter's idea and that last reply? It seems like the consensus is to agree with the unvaibility and lack of need for the WRC but reading that last post makes it look like WOT themselves came in to have a go at it.

What would happen if there was some WOT style opposition to the idea?

On the note of WRC vs Atlantic corridor, the main stretch of road that needs upgrading it the Claremorris to Galway section, the Mayo side of the N17 is in very good shape up to Charlestown atleast. It should go without saying that the remainder of the N17 be upgraded which in no doubt would reduce the viability further of the WRC.

Neworder79

Lads another regional line is to re-open today and not a single thread discussing it on this forum. The bloody WRC P1 is built, it will it will live or die in the coming years and P2/3 look dead already. Is there any point in continuing to kick the dog!

If everyone put the effort into lobbying their politicians that they do pouring scorn on the WRC here they might actually make some difference.

westtip

DWCommuter wrote: »

Obviously there isn't much interest in making a lasting record of the "alternative" view to that put across by the WOT campaign..

DW I do whole heartedly agree with your sentiments and yes I have offered to help and give you input - its just the matter of resources - Can any of us match the relentless resources of WOT, I would imagine for most of us time and resources are limited.

DWCommuter wrote: »

I proposed the idea as a method of creating an everlasting account of why the WRC was a poor project in transport terms and why it dominated national debate about transport issues to a degree that it made fun of what was actually needed in the country. While we may be in recession now and the WRC north of Athenry looks doomed, do not for a minute think that the next generation won't be beaten to death by a similar campaign and history will be repeating itself all over again. The WRC, since the closure of the Claremorris - Colooney stretch has spanned across at least two generations. I myself was only 10 years of age in 1981 when the first report and recommendation for reopening was drawn up. Only in the last 5 years was there a rebuttal of the proposal. It would have been very responsible to leave the next generation with an alternate viewpoint put across in a professional and non-hysterical fashion...

I for one agree again with this sentiment whole heartedly

DWCommuter wrote: »

I take offense at what I proposed being portrayed as ill-considered propaganda. I also take offense at the suggestion that I don't grasp the "Psyche" involved....

And so you should - you have shown a complete grasp of real issues about the WRC; I think other posters perhaps feared what you were planning - in that the WOT vigilantes would bludgeon you with the "poor west" and what have these easterners got to say about the west all the time, they (the evil easterners, Dubs, Palers etc never want to do anything for the west).

I think there is room for an alternative pressure - or actually what I would like to call opinion group in the west with regard to this forlorn project. I think your idea for the video is just one ingredient of what could be an excellent campaign to inform the great unwashed and get them thinking about it.

DWCommuter wrote: »

My own opinion stems from the psyche involved in all of this, from parish pump politics to a west of Ireland belief that they are the poor relations. An attitude that has been ingrained over a period of 800 years. The western "moan" is an outdated card and actually holds back real progress. Its a tradition that is not shared by the celtic tiger generation that saw work, modernisation and development in the west lead to a concerted effort to attract people from the east to relocate there on the basis of quality of life etc etc. The west of Ireland seen the boom times aswell. FACT! ....

Well said - the West of Ireland BTW for all those easterners out there is in fact a great place to live and has benefitted hugely from the modern world. Guess what we do have broadband, Sky TV, access to theatre and music, and half decent restaurants, oh and BTW we do all have running water and electricity - and as I often say in the local pub here what did the Romans ever do for us: The west if you pick your spot is a great place to live and raise a family, however it is a very car dependent place to live which is why we need good roads.

DWCommuter wrote: »

I certainly wasn't planning some cheap propaganda ridden piece that stank of an agenda. I never had an agenda in relation to the WRC. I simply sided with a viewpoint that presented a valid argument that came about as a result of research, debate and rational conclusion. If one wants to talk about propaganda then look no further than the entire WOT campaign. A campaign that refused to debate the issue with an alternative viewpoint. A campaign that locked itself inside its own aims and was aided and abetted by a naieve and willing media and a Government that feared rebellion from within. (the western poor mouth agenda kicked in again.)

We may let sleeping dogs lie for now, but your children will be listening to the same ****e in the years ahead and just like now the WRC will steal funding, resources and invaluable media coverage to the detriment of projects badly needed and justified elsewhere.

Well said in your whole piece, There has actually been some challenge to the WOT view in the local media - I for one had lengthy letters in the Western People and in the Sligo Champion about the O'Cuiv idea for a Greenway along the Claremorris-Collooney section - WOT did not react to either pieces, even though O'Cuiv had specifically asked them to debate the idea at their last rally in Claremorris and there was a lengthy piece by a columnist in the Sligo Champion about green tourism and cycleways and he too argued the same ideas - both these were in recent months. Both pieces invited reaction from WOT, both got none - the truth is they don't want to enter real debate because they just bleat on about any opposition to WRC being anti-west, we all know this, they simply won't come out into the open for real debate. There argument is "It's a great idea isn't it - therefore it should happen and anyone against it is Anti-West" (Yawn)

DW don't give up on your idea but lets think how it can be integrated into a more cohesive campaign, which WOT will have great difficulty campaigning against.

Neworder79 wrote: »

If everyone put the effort into lobbying their politicians that they do pouring scorn on the WRC here they might actually make some difference.

I for one have had lengthy debates in correspondence with Minister O'Cuiv and Minister Dempsey on this matter - and have I think to a degree influenced their thinking - and as mentioned above I have also opened the debate out in the letters pages of both the Irish Times and in the local press - Western People and Sligo Champion, and influencing the local rags is probably more important in this debate - a letter in the Western People from someone in the west cannot be dismissed by WOT in the same way as they dismiss any arguments in the likes of the IT and Indo from "Dublin Based journalists or letter writers from Dublin 4" (I paraphrase a comment they once said, but this is the kind of thing they may come out with, and here is a quote from their website in a news release last year:

A spokesman for West on Track said:

"This insidious campaign, coming from entirely outside of this region, has been under way since early this summer and has recently been renewed in the run-in to the budget. As we have previously pointed out, the campaign is being systematically conducted through articles in national and local newspapers and appearances by Dublin-based economists, "commentators" and former politicians on high-profile radio programmes and chat shows.".

If you want to read the whole piece of vitriole go to this link: http://www.westontrack.com/news202.htm

BTW I have yet to meet anyone in the west who is at all rising in Anger!!


There is only so much one person can do - in some respects I agree with you and part of this campaign should be about individuals writing to their TDs and the Ministers with an interest spelling out the issues. We may bemoan our politicians but Ireland is a very small country and it is surprising how much direct contact you can have with a member of the cabinet here. My thought on the WRC campaign has always been about influencing the decision makers - perhaps quietly and behind the scenes. Believe you me the politicians of influence are looking for a way out on this debacle and would consider opposition to it as a healthy part of the debate - if that opposition was rationally organised and had a credibility and support in the west they would lay out the red carpet.

BTW Neworder79 there is a middleton line thread on the boards - been there for sometime and mentions todays opening: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055320811&page=10

Victor

Neworder79 wrote: »

Lads another regional line is to re-open today and not a single thread discussing it on this forum.

Midleton is more suburban than regional and has taken 31 years to reopen.

There are approximately 184 thread that mention Midleton on the Commuting & Transport board, but not all of them are about the railway. However:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055320811
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055619934&highlight=Midleton
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055401475&highlight=Midleton
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055516590&highlight=Midleton
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055220321&highlight=Midleton

Stroke Politics

€7.5m per km.

Or about 5 times more expensive per km than the Limerick-Galway link due to open in September....

Carawaystick

Stroke Politics wrote: »

€7.5m per km.

Or about 5 times more expensive per km than the Limerick-Galway link due to open in September....

Will there be more than 5 times the number of passengers.....
The new overbridge must have cost a lot of that though. Athenry to Ennis has most of the roads bridged already.

Judgement Day

Stroke Politics wrote: »

€7.5m per km.

Or about 5 times more expensive per km than the Limerick-Galway link due to open in September....

Yes, but likely to carry 100 times more passengers per day than the WRC and I'm pessimistic about the Cork/Midleton link.

invincibleirish

I think the original Midleton CBA projected figures will be missed due to the whole recession business and might not be profitable within the (i think) 3 years as intended, but will still require far less subvention and provide more value for money then the WRC.

westtip

Stroke Politics wrote: »

€7.5m per km.

Or about 5 times more expensive per km than the Limerick-Galway link due to open in September....

As per usual with these type of arguments about WRC, the cost per km to lay the track and make it railworthy again is wholly irrelevant to the debate.

What will the cost per passenger be to subvent the Ennis Athenry section? - if you are so keen on quoting the cost pr km of the track being laid then pray tell me have you got a little nugget about this one?

Not to mention the mind boggling cost to subvent Ahenry Tuam -Claremorris!

If half the cost of subvention to keep these lines open and indeed the amortisation of the capital cost over say 20 years, was put into bus services what kind of bus service would you get between the towns involved? This would actually be a cheaper option for the State (ie the Taxpayer) and would provide a better transport service for the public.

Just how many times do we have to say....the West does not need this rail line re-opened but does need other things of far higher priority. Now given that we all have to accept that the Ennis Athenry section is re-opening - and the acid test will be just how utilised it will be - I will not hold my breath. There will I expect be a blip in usage in the first few weeks but when real passenger numbers start coming through - excluding free travel passengers - as I expect to see many of WOT crowd recruiting OAPS to go up and down the line all day to boost numbers (please don't be surprised at their tactics). Then the truth will be out - extrapolate those figures to the Tuam Claremorris section and the rest of the project will be doomed.

corktina

something that creates jobs in the region would have been of far greater value.

westtip

Email received today from IE

Thanks your for your email.
The line will open in late 2009. We do not have a timetable finalised just yet.
Kind Regards
Rita Butterly,
Corporate Communications,
Iarnród Éireann,
Room 213,
Connolly Station,
Amiens Street,
Dublin 1.
P: (01) 7032561
F: (01) 7032515
W: www.irishrail.ie

pointofnoreturn

corktina wrote: »

something that creates jobs in the region would have been of far greater value.

Think of the in-direct job creation, look at the history of London transport.

There is going to be no direct solution to making a infrastructure that will support this country in years to come, we just go to build it and let the rest develop around.

corktina

pointofnoreturn wrote: »

Think of the in-direct job creation, look at the history of London transport.

There is going to be no direct solution to making a infrastructure that will support this country in years to come, we just go to build it and let the rest develop around.

the jobs it does create are almost all NOT in the region as it only passes through it...they are probably not in London either although Im sure if i study hard enough I'll be able to see the similarities between rural Ballygobackwards and London.

pointofnoreturn

corktina wrote: »

the jobs it does create are almost all NOT in the region as it only passes through it...they are probably not in London either although Im sure if i study hard enough I'll be able to see the similarities between rural Ballygobackwards and London.

Even a god damn shop in Gort station would be a job for a few, what if someone puts some local bus service to connect with trains to Galway and Limerick, hence better access to jobs in the region! (now thats just looking at Gort)

I know if was considering creating jobs, i'd be thinking in terms of access! and that doesn't include road, Ireland just has too many cars and not enough alternative decent transport.

corktina

l

yachtsman

I think that Stroke Politics' point has been fobbed off with smart answers rather than an acknowledgement that he asked a straight question that deserves a straight answer.

How can it cost five times as much to relay a mile of state-owned closed railway in Cork than it does in Galway? And please bear in mind that the €106 m allocated to the first phase of the WRC INCLUDES all the signalling, level crossings and strengthening works currently underway on the Athenry to Galway section AND provision for the new station at Oranmore. The real cost of Ennis to Athenry is closer to €2m per mile than €3m - while Middleton cost €12m per mile. Future passenger use has nothing to do with the capital cost. And I am bemused at the predictions of failure facing the WRC. You can rest assured there will be more passengers on the first service train carrying fare paying passengers into Athenry than there were on the Middleton fare paying service into Cobh Junction yesterday - 9.

IE have about 1000 route miles in the country and they receive about €200m in subsidy ie. €200,000 per route mile.
So lets stop giving the impression that IE are not already heavily subsidised. They should'nt get an increased subsidy for Middleton or the WRC. They should fill the trains with passengers, sweat their assets, decongest the roads, reduce our carbon footprint - in other words get off their butts and do what they are paid to do - run a rail service or get off the pitch and let the private sector get on with the job.

And I for one as a Galwayman want a railway service on the WRC from Galway to Mayo NOT a walking route. Its enough having McCarthy trying to turn our region into a nature reserve than to have local people advocating it. I have seen too many tears shed at Airports of young Irish graduates emigrating against their will to believe we need anything other than 21st century infrastructure all over Ireland to help us attract inward investment and to foster our indiginous potential.

gjim

pointofnoreturn wrote: »

Even a god damn shop in Gort station would be a job for a few, what if someone puts some local bus service to connect with trains to Galway and Limerick, hence better access to jobs in the region! (now thats just looking at Gort)

This encapsulates perfectly why I generally avoid even attempting to engage with WRC promoters. Our economic world views are simply too far apart. I simply do not see the employment of three people to sell 4 bags of Taytos, 2 Mars bars, a can a Coke and 20 Major a day from a dusty provincial train station platform as a way to help a local economy. It does the exact opposite. I'd suggest using a vending machine and spending the 50k a year saved on something which would actually help stimulate the local economy instead of deadening it with useless wastes of money. Even scattering the 50k a year in the form of 50 euro notes around the town square would do more for the local economy than keeping three relatives of the station master gainfully employed picking their nails behind a sweet counter during the generous gaps in the train schedule.