Western Rail Corridor

rikki2

What you seem to be missing out on in your analysis are the reaons why people choose to take the train over bus car or flight.
It's not always about speed. Buses are still cramped and very few have toilet facilities and apart from GoBus there are very few operating a non stop route. If you were heading to Galway for a weekend from Friday to Sunday and you knew you were going to have a heavy night on Saturday. The train would be a better option as you would no doubt be over the limit for driving back to Dublin and you could travel in comfort on the train.
Not everyone can drive, and after a hards week work in the city the train is much more appealing than sitting behind the wheel for nigh on 3 hours for alot of people from the country.
There has been a great takeup onthe Ennis to Limerick section of the WRC reopened a few years ago and the same will be true for Ennis to Athenry.
I notice you're located in Berlin. I lived and worked there in the 80's. It has an excellent rail network. I think you're out of touch with the West of Ireland, you'll be proved wrong

murphaph

rikki2 wrote: »

I think you're out of touch with the West of Ireland, you'll be proved wrong

We'll see rikki, but I doubt the trains will be full or anywhere near it. Ennis-Limerick is not succesful compared to say, Luas or DART. I very much doubt it turns anything close to a profit (not that PT should always turn a profit). I doubt it removes more than a handful of cars from the N18 in reality.

corktina

Ennis to Limerisck makes some sense as a lot of the passengers are heading for Dublin. It seems a bit blinkered to me to forecast the same success for Ennis to Athenry, where would they all be going?

Hungerford

corktina wrote: »

Ennis to Limerisck makes some sense as a lot of the passengers are heading for Dublin. It seems a bit blinkered to me to forecast the same success for Ennis to Athenry, where would they all be going?

I've used the Limerick-Ennis service and I was pleasantly surprised by the numbers using it and the frequency of the timetable.

Ennis to Athenry could be successful because the line links two major cities, Limerick and Galway, by rail. The issue though is whether IE will market it properly and use appropriate rolling stock.

The signs aren't good though: the proposed use of 2700 commuter railcars on the route in particular. A 22k intercity set would be far more appropriate.

Hungerford

DWCommuter wrote: »

The WRC is a con job. Promoted by eejits, sanctioned by bigger eejits and built by understudy eejits on strings.

Why do people get so emotional about a railway line? Funnily enough despite being a resident of the east coast and a non-trainspotter, I think the WRC project has some merit - if it was executed properly.

The section between Ennis and Athenry could certainly work as part of an intercity rail link between Limerick and Galway. It fills a gaping hole in the intercity rail network and there should be sufficient traffic between the two cities to support a rail link between the two.

The issue though is that CIE and the politicians are almost certainly going to undermine any chances of it being a success.

The politicians by insisting that the train stops in every godforsaken backwater where there's a few votes and CIE through their usual specialities of inefficiency, poor marketing and inappropriate rolling stock.

The further phases of the WRC are, however, more problematic. I can't see any justification for going further north of Athenry except in a few scenarios.

Scenario 1 is that CIE finally get around to sorting out a proper commuter rail service for Galway and invest in the necessary track doubling and rolling stock. If the resulting service proved to be a success, extending northwards as far as Tuam should be on the table.

Scenario 2 is that the rail freight business between Ballina and the south gets so busy that further expansion would disrupt passenger services on the Cork/Waterford main lines. In that case, the link between Claremorris and Athenry should be opened as a freight only line.

Beyond Claremorris, I agree that any hope of a successful reopening is just an outlandish fantasy entertained by politicians to get votes.

corktina

Hungerford wrote: »

I've used the Limerick-Ennis service and I was pleasantly surprised by the numbers using it and the frequency of the timetable.

Ennis to Athenry could be successful because the line links two major cities, Limerick and Galway, by rail. The issue though is whether IE will market it properly and use appropriate rolling stock.

The signs aren't good though: the proposed use of 2700 commuter railcars on the route in particular. A 22k intercity set would be far more appropriate.

well I dont agree for the reason stated. The Ennis to Limerick section is in effect an extention of the Dublin Inter City servioe whereas the Ennis Gort Athenry (change directions) Galway service will be in essense a rural railway, ie slow, with several stops and winding round curves and crossing many level crossings.I would imagine the numbers travelling Gort to Dublin would be tiny compared to Ennis to Dublin.

Hungerford

corktina wrote: »

I would imagine the numbers travelling Gort to Dublin would be tiny compared to Ennis to Dublin.

Two points here:

1. Why are people so obsessed with Dublin traffic? Dublin isn't the only city in the country! I was talking about potential demand from Galway to Limerick or even down to Cork.

2. According to my ancient copy of the GSR appendix to the working timetable, there's fewer than 10 level crossings between Ennis and Athenry.

It's from Tuam onwards where the number of crossings and the general standard of the route's construction becomes a major issue - largely because it was built as a light railway.

corktina

potential traffic galway to limerick is minute...especially with a motorway going direct right alongside and a train service that will be slow and indirect....and down to Cork? well, how many travel Limerick to Cork now? and how many extra would travel from galway? Not very many.

DWCommuter

Hungerford wrote: »

Why do people get so emotional about a railway line?

Welcome to the board H! Just as Im making my farewell tour.:eek:

In fairness I get emotional about a lot of things. It fuels my creativity.:D

Anyway Ive enjoyed your contribution on this topic thus far. You seem reletively reasoned and practical. But the WRC only became a topic that generated a variety of emotions due to the content of the WOT campaign, their narrowmindedness and the Government response.

dermo88

Hungerford.

I would respectfully suggest remaining where you are. In the context of Irish Government finances, the railways in Ireland are likely to be massacred.

Judgement Day

Dermo88 - Do you really think that this Govt. is going to be able to get a raft of closures through in the budget? I suspect that the present shower of tossers will be gone by Christmas. Then we will see Hairshirt Fine Gael in their true light and who knows what then. I know one thing I am going to make sure that anyone supporting closures get the credit they deserve.

Hungerford

Judgement Day wrote: »

Dermo88 - Do you really think that this Govt. is going to be able to get a raft of closures through in the budget? I suspect that the present shower of tossers will be gone by Christmas.

My thoughts exactly. I reckon that, at the very least, several of the lines identified in the Bord Snip Nua report will be given a reprive. There's a few reasons for this:

1. McCarthy's crediblity on transport issues is very weak: he was one of Sean Barrett's biggest supporters in the 1970s [you may recall Barrett's mad scheme to replace the Dublin rail system with bus lanes] and, more recently, his predictions on Luas demand were woeful and had more to do with his ideological views than reality.

2. Opposition from exporters: The likes of Coca-Cola etc in Ballina are already expressing concern about the proposed closure of the Ballina branch, especially as they have been expanding their rail freight operations recently. In fact, I can't understand why the Ballina branch was even included in the Bord Snip report.

This concern may also save the bacon of the Limerick - Waterford line. Some of the Mayo-based exporters are hoping to us it for freight to Wateford Port if the WRC ever reaches Claremorris because it get rids of all that time consuming reversing at Kildare.

On top of that you could make a decent argument that the Limerick - Waterford line, Waterford - Rosslare line and the Nenagh branch shouldn't close because their problems are largely down to CIE.

Certainly, there seems to be some grassroots support for the railway in Nenagh but the timings for the commuter service launched last year are pathetic. As for the Waterford - Rosslare line, any rail service with just one service each way per day is never likely to be a success.

Hungerford

corktina wrote: »

potential traffic galway to limerick is minute...especially with a motorway going direct right alongside and a train service that will be slow and indirect.

I wouldn't be naive enough to suggest that any public transport link would remove numerous private cars off motorways - unless is was either faster or more comfortable.

The WRC has a fighting chance among public transport users in the region though. It's likely that the journey time from Limerick to Galway will around 1:50 to 2 hours.

The motorway timings are around 1:30 but the Bus Eireann timing is usually around 2:15 - meaning the WRC could, for all its faults, would outpace those services.

If the price was right and a couple of 22K railcars were placed on the route, it could do decent business even at current speeds.

Chris_533976

Citylinks timings are 1hr30 from Galway to Limerick, and that wont be beaten by any train that detours to Craughwell and Athenry.

And the 1h30m is resonably achievable even at rush hour due to bus lanes at both ends.

Nostradamus

A mate of mine works at CocaCola and they send and get nearly all their freight by road. The rail stuff is some deal they get and the traffic is tiny to the point were it just token stuff. I have to ask him about this freight expansion as from what he tells me business in down.

I am actually intrigued about how much of that freight to Ballina is not empty contrainers being run back and forth constantly. Not impling anything. But I have seen the same container serial numbers in the Yard at ballina on the same wagons serial numbers on consecutive arriving trains.

I am sure there is an innocent enough explaination for this if someone can enlightened to what kind of freight can be loaded into a container which never leaves the same wagon base for weeks on end?

IIMII

Judgement Day wrote: »

Got to disagree with you here - just because your mother was charged a ridiculous price for rail tickets to Belfast does not mean that rail is bad road is good. That sort of simplistic thinking is what has our railways in their present state. The rail journey to Belfast is a lot more comfortable than the bus alternative, even though journey times have improved greatly on the latter, and the ability to work on the train, walk about, go to the bar/toilet etc are all major advantages over the bus. Just because the inheritors of the GNR can't organise a piss-up in a brewery doesn't mean that rail is inferior to road.

Oh-Kay. But consider that very few commuters will use the line, you are left with 'patients' (allegedly), students and pensioners. And tourists.

I can't see any of these groupings making up the numbers needed for the WRC, nevermind wanting to pay for peak hour services. Even if it was free, you'd have a hard job filling seats and it will be even harder at high prices. You need to have a people magnet at at least one end of a railway line.

There has to be a demand for the service to meet, not a service to create a demand. High prices won't help the WRC even if you can walk about, work and walk to a bar (which I doubt will be the case on the WRC)

EDIT: I never said road good, rail bad. They carry out complimentary functions. I'm a big fan of rail in commuter / intercity contexts. I'm not a fan of 50mph rail routes meandaring around the countryside, sucking funding from potentially more beneficial projects. I'd be much more in favour of a Derry Limerick road than a Derry - Limerick railway built around the Burma road

Judgement Day

Nostradamus wrote: »

A mate of mine works at CocaCola and they send and get nearly all their freight by road. The rail stuff is some deal they get and the traffic is tiny to the point were it just token stuff. I have to ask him about this freight expansion as from what he tells me business in down.

I am actually intrigued about how much of that freight to Ballina is not empty contrainers being run back and forth constantly. Not impling anything. But I have seen the same container serial numbers in the Yard at ballina on the same wagons serial numbers on consecutive arriving trains.

I am sure there is an innocent enough explaination for this if someone can enlightened to what kind of freight can be loaded into a container which never leaves the same wagon base for weeks on end?

Given that Norfolk Line/DFDS is a private, profit making company it would hardly be in their interests to pay CIE/IE to run empty containers between Ballina and Waterford! Why don't you check with Norfolk Line/DFDS and let us know the outcome?

Judgement Day

IIMII wrote: »

Oh-Kay. But consider that very few commuters will use the line, you are left with 'patients' (allegedly), students and pensioners. And tourists.

I can't see any of these groupings making up the numbers needed for the WRC, nevermind wanting to pay for peak hour services. Even if it was free, you'd have a hard job filling seats and it will be even harder at high prices. You need to have a people magnet at at least one end of a railway line.

There has to be a demand for the service to meet, not a service to create a demand. High prices won't help the WRC even if you can walk about, work and walk to a bar (which I doubt will be the case on the WRC)

EDIT: I never said road good, rail bad. They carry out complimentary functions. I'm a big fan of rail in commuter / intercity contexts. I'm not a fan of 50mph rail routes meandaring around the countryside, sucking funding from potentially more beneficial projects. I'd be much more in favour of a Derry Limerick road than a Derry - Limerick railway built around the Burma road

Ah yes, I agree with some of what you are saying but remember I was commenting on the Enterprise service not on the joke 'commuter' railcars that CIE/IE will inflict on users of the WRC. When you remove all the comfort advantages (superior speed, tables, bar car etc.etc) from a rail service then it compares very unfavourably with the road alternatives. The Dublin/Rosslare line slipped into this zone some years ago and yet people continue to put up with it. How many more would return to it if a decent service was provided? Even with the promised introduction of 22000s on the line on Sept.27th it will be inferior to the service provided by the MkIIs! No dining car, little space for bikes, some tables, no 1st class (I know that was gone from the Rosslare a long time ago!) - no Fastrack!

I had to travel from DG to Connolly last week specifically to deliver a parcel (€22.50 return) - about what it would have cost to send it by Fastrack but instead of occupying a tiny space in the guards van it took up a seat beside me and I took up another seat. Off topic here, but even when the 22000s arrive the trains will still stop to pick up passengers for Dublin at places like Bray - should be a set-down only - and the resulting crush is not how an inter-city service should operate. The Cork/Dublin trains don't serve Cherry Orchard etc.etc.etc. :mad:

IIMII

Judgement Day wrote: »

Ah yes, I agree with some of what you are saying but remember I was commenting on the Enterprise service not on the joke 'commuter' railcars that CIE/IE will inflict on users of the WRC.

True. But neither was I saying Road good, rail bad

Hungerford

Judgement Day wrote: »

Given that Norfolk Line/DFDS is a private, profit making company it would hardly be in their interests to pay CIE/IE to run empty containers between Ballina and Waterford!

Yep - those boys are serious players and certainly wouldn't be in the business of running empty wagons!

In terms of the level of freight business there, you have to remember that Coke aren't the only user of the Norfolk Line service so even if their tonnage is down, it doesn't follow that the service is less busy.

From what I can gather DFDS are planning to put an extra service on the Ballina-Waterford run pretty soon so I presume they are seeing increased demand.

There's also a Ballina-Dublin run starting up soon, which the promoters hope will become a daily Mon-Fri service, which would be something for the trainspotters to look forward to!

Hungerford

Judgement Day wrote: »

The Dublin/Rosslare line slipped into this zone some years ago and yet people continue to put up with it. How many more would return to it if a decent service was provided?

The Sligo line is an excellent illustration of the points you are making. Since the 22Ks have been introduced on the line, it seems that patronage (which was always healthy) has increased significantly.

It's now at the point where on most services, demand has far outstripped IE's original plan to run them using 3-car 22K sets.

Something similar could happen on the Rosslare line although Dick Fearn's crazy plan to terminate most services at Wexford seems to indicate a severe lack of commitment to the line in general, particularly as the distance between Wexford and Rosslare is pretty trivial.

As for stopping Rosslare services at Bray and Greystones, I can't see the harm in that. They are traditional intercity stops - like Drogheda on the Northern line and Maynooth on the Maynooth line.

Judgement Day

My point about Bray is that too many ordinary commuters are piling onto the service and spoiling what little that is left of the inter-city experience on the train. In the Up direction - somehow - Bray needs to be a set-down stop only and a pick-up stop in the Down direction. Operationally this might be difficult to achieve especially in the Up direction but back in the 1970s the loco hauled, Down evening Rosslare used to start from Platform 1 in Connolly before being hauled out northwards and then proceeding to Platform 5. This practice meant that those of us in the know used to board the train on Platform 1. thereby ensuring the best seats. Something similar could be done when the 22000s start with only passengers holding tickets for beyond Bray being allowed over to Platform.1. and running through Platform 5. Of course this still leaves the stops at Tara Street and Pearse needing elimination too.
Quite how you prevent passengers from boarding the Up Rosslare at Bray is another matter - perhaps using the Down platform and a phalanx of Boards Servants armed with rhino whips and pepper spray? But something needs to be done otherwise the present overcrowding shambles will continue - especially if 3-piece 22000s are the norm. Basically some radical thinking is needed to address the Connolly/Rosslare service not just substituting the awful Commuter railcars with 22000s. And please don't anybody raise the nonsense idea of starting the Rosslare from Bray - why not start the Cork train from Kildare???

invincibleirish

Judgement Day wrote: »

My point about Bray is that too many ordinary commuters are piling onto the service and spoiling what little that is left of the inter-city experience on the train...

Come off it would ya? the 'Intercity experience' is ruined by paying customers boarding trains? IE would be crazy to implement your proposal and deny customers the chance get on/off at Bray. Thats trainspotter talk if ever i saw it:).

road_high

Judgement Day wrote: »

Given that Norfolk Line/DFDS is a private, profit making company it would hardly be in their interests to pay CIE/IE to run empty containers between Ballina and Waterford! Why don't you check with Norfolk Line/DFDS and let us know the outcome?

I hope you are correct and it is a viable service.
I am frankly amazed though that somewhere Ballina is running a freight service to Waterford; I mean, it's hardly an industrial hotspot is it?? Granted I know very little about the town, but apart from Coca-Cola who uses the freight line

Judgement Day

mfitzy wrote: »

I hope you are correct and it is a viable service.
I am frankly amazed though that somewhere Ballina is running a freight service to Waterford; I mean, it's hardly an industrial hotspot is it?? Granted I know very little about the town, but apart from Coca-Cola who uses the freight line

Be as amazed as you like - the facts speak for themselves. Norfolk Line/DFDS hire the trains from CIE/IE and pay for them whether they are full or empty. Perhaps they are a trainspotter charity? Ballina is a loading point for a larger catchment area with containers being trucked from other towns in the region - there still is some industry left in the West of Ireland. If you really want me to I will ring Norfolk Line on Monday and ask them but I suspect such info is confidential.

Judgement Day

invincibleirish wrote: »

Come off it would ya? the 'Intercity experience' is ruined by paying customers boarding trains? IE would be crazy to implement your proposal and deny customers the chance get on/off at Bray. Thats trainspotter talk if ever i saw it:).

How is it trainspotter talk - trainspotters don't give a damn about conditions on trains as most of them drive about the country photographing them instead? I use the Rosslare train, have done for years - what's your experience of it? Anyway, taking your point to its logical conclusion why not have the Enterprise picking up at northside commuter stations - it can't make its timekeeping any worse.

Fairdues

The wrc would be brilliant if it was viable.

Hungerford

mfitzy wrote: »

I hope you are correct and it is a viable service.
I am frankly amazed though that somewhere Ballina is running a freight service to Waterford; I mean, it's hardly an industrial hotspot is it??

I'm reliably informed that one of the reasons why it is viable is that EU transport regulations make it impossible for lorry drivers to legally make the Ballina to Waterford journey in a day and keep within their working hour limits.

Hungerford

Judgement Day wrote: »

Something similar could be done when the 22000s start with only passengers holding tickets for beyond Bray being allowed over to Platform.1. and running through Platform 5. Of course this still leaves the stops at Tara Street and Pearse needing elimination too.

I think that there'd be a lot of angry passengers if you pulled that stunt in Connolly. For health and safety reasons, it can't reverse into the washroad at Connolly with passengers on it.

That means that it would have to reverse across the running lines to get to Platform 5, putting Platforms 2-4 out of use for about five minutes at a time. If the Rosslare service were to break down during this process, they'd be out of action for much longer, possibly trapping rolling stock at their platforms. :eek:

Not stopping at Tara Street and Pearse also wouldn't make much sense - they are the two busiest stations on the entire network and are handy for passengers who have business on the southside of the city (eg shopping, appointments etc).

On top of that, enforcing a setdown-only rule in Bray would be practically impossible in any case.

Hungerford

Judgement Day wrote: »

Anyway, taking your point to its logical conclusion why not have the Enterprise picking up at northside commuter stations - it can't make its timekeeping any worse.

Erm... the Enterprise does stop at two 'commuter' stations, Drogheda and Dundalk which both, like Bray, are commuter terminuses.