Western Rail Corridor

Judgement Day

Westtip - someone doesn't like you .....it wasn't me as calling you a ....wouldn't be cricket!

westtip

Judgement Day wrote: »

Westtip - someone doesn't like you .....it wasn't me as calling you a ....wouldn't be cricket!

JD - Thanks the mods have quite rightly addressed the matter. Victor - Thank you.

Jim Martin

Oh yes another thing he's not even Irish so butt out of things that don't concern you[/quote]

Phew! I wouldn't like to think that because someone is not Irish, that it would preclude them from taking an interest in Irish affairs.

westtip

Jim the Mods have dealt with this matter and had the offending post removed but thank you for your views. It was a particularly outrageous post.

fh041205

westtip wrote: »

Jim the Mods have dealt with this matter and had the offending post removed but thank you for your views. It was a particularly outrageous post.

It was a particularly idiotic post. God you've got a nemesis I think westtip! Some people can't deal with valid arguments. I got a good laugh out of it though. Particularly given that some of the bigger fish in IR aren't Irish either!!

The words sinking ship spring instantly to mind.

westtip

fh041205 wrote: »

It was a particularly idiotic post. God you've got a nemesis I think westtip! Some people can't deal with valid arguments. I got a good laugh out of it though. Particularly given that some of the bigger fish in IR aren't Irish either!!

The words sinking ship spring instantly to mind.

It wasn't just idiotic it was deeply offensive, thank goodness Victor acted quickly, for the record, I am Irish (but frankly couldn't give a monkeys what nationality anyone is), I did grow up in the UK - so I am well used to racist sentiments, although it is strange to get them now I am living here but speak with an english accent, but you get used to it; there is still an inherent underlying racism towards anything tainted with britain (my accent gives away my upbringing but not my nationality), there are lots of people like me now living in Ireland and the offending poster is one of those people who clearly can't cope with strangers or outsiders choosing to make their home here and then having the audacity to express views about the society we live in or what we think could be done to improve the society; Sad but true. I do hope he is reading this post and others posted today regarding his comments.

Calina

If you do not stop discussing a moderation and get back to the subject of the Western Rail Corridor I will lock the thread.

Is that clear?

DWCommuter

Calina wrote: »

If you do not stop discussing a moderation and get back to the subject of the Western Rail Corridor I will lock the thread.

Is that clear?

Very clear and if I may oblige........

......the WRC is absolutely bonkers. It's supporters are deviod of any rational thought. It's an Irish solution to an Irish problem. All it deserves is redicule. It has no economic foundation. In fact it hasn't even got the beginnings of any economic foundation. The entire topic has ruined friendships, devastated families, wrecked marriages, exposed gob****es, created a need for a supreme breed of "internet mods" and broken the will of any decent person with a brain in their heads.

Just back from Waterford. A place that got shafted in a working railway sense, is a storage place for abandoned, yet perfectly good rolling stock, but holds its head high, gets on with life, doesn't pass the begging bowl about and has developed into a 21st society while the west ignores the investment it got and shelters a myriad of headbangers who persist in promoting outdated early 20th century thinking in the name of social justice and economics.

Now we're back on topic and awaiting even more nasty posts against posters with legitimate arguments from people with absolutely no argument whatsoever.

Victor

DWCommuter wrote: »

Just back from Waterford. A place that got shafted in a working railway sense, is a storage place for abandoned, yet perfectly good rolling stock, but holds its head high, gets on with life, doesn't pass the begging bowl about and has developed into a 21st society while the west ignores the investment it got and shelters a myriad of headbangers who persist in promoting outdated early 20th century thinking in the name of social justice and economics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M9_motorway_(Ireland)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N25_road_(Ireland)

DWCommuter

Your links lead nowhere. If you're trying to say something or prove a point, then just do it the straight forward way.

DWCommuter

DWCommuter wrote: »

Your links lead nowhere. If you're trying to say something or prove a point, then just do it the straight forward way.

The brackets at the end were cut off.

westtip

DWCommuter wrote: »

Very clear and if I may oblige........

......the WRC is absolutely bonkers. It's supporters are deviod of any rational thought. .

DW just thought a little retrospective thinking might be worthwhile here so writing this past the midnight hour. I took a look at the WOT website tonight and clicked on the link executive summary of the first report on this project published about six years ago - reading the report now really is quite meaningless garbage, but something struck me about how WOT originally envisaged the development of the WRC and what has actually happened: WOT proposed this as "stage one" the quote below is from the report available on their website:

•PHASE 1: Mid 2004 – December 2005
• Stage 1: Claremorris-Charlestown & Tuam-Athenry. These works would proceed simultaneously bringing Tuam-Galway commuter services on stream within a year and linking Knock Airport to the National Rail Network. Development work on Oranmore station would also commence in this phase.
• Stage 2: Claremorris-Tuam and double-tracking of Oranmore-Galway. This stage will link Galway to Knock International Airport.
.

This re-confirms something you said a long time ago that basically the WOT agenda has only ever been about claremorris been connected to Athenry and hence Galway and Dublin. In that original report - the one piece of the line that does actually connect the two cities on the western seaboard was actually going to be the last piece of the line done, Ennis Athenry. why on earth would this be the case? - the fact that Charlestown - Collooney was listed as a project to complete before (Limerick) Ennis-Athenry - Galway, says a lot about the original agenda of WOT, this was the original phase two envisaged by WOT, whats more the comment about Knock Airport is laughable when Bus Eireann won't schedule their buses to stop at the Ariport when they pass within five minutes of the place on the N17 and N5 and the shuttle service to Charlestown has been stopped!

PHASE 2: January 2006 – December 2007
• Charlestown-Collooney, Double tracking of Athenry-Oranmore.
• Ennis-Athenry.


Of course all of this was cloud cuckoo land and the phase one development that has taken place - connecting Limerick and Galway is the only realistic piece of this mythical corridor that is ever going to "succeed" - personally I don't think it will due to lack of service levels - the required services levels to provide a real service are frankly beyond what resources IE have to offer.

What does this all mean for the big project - Well we all know the current climate and changes and chops in the NDP and T21 are coming. God knows what we will manage to hold onto in the Wesht for sure this project has been in the firing line from day one - and is now almost definitely going to get the chop - but lets all be careful - because WOT will not go gentle into that good night without the Claremorris connection been completed this was their first and really only goal or at least I agree with you DW that this was their position from day one, connect Claremorris to Tuam and Athenry, now the writing is seemingly on the wall they are getting very very rattled. What does this all add up to? Desperation and depression for WOT I would say and a lifeftime of watching the weeds grow on the Burma Road whilst the rest of us are denied a wonderful opportunity for a linear park greenway that would bring untold tourism benefits to the area.

dermo88

I'm used to making particularly sarcastic and idiotic posts at the worst of times. So here goes.

Do a search on an old thread called "Transylvania on Track". I think its from 2007.

As I sit here, in the far reaches of a happily content mildly corrupt land, with an even more ****ed up railway network, and a government that would willingly imprison me for exposing the dodgy dealings done with its railway network, and the bribes that change hands, the overmanning, the loveable ****ed up nature of it all.

I have sent invites to the lovers of old and dodgy railways to go to places other than Ireland.

The incentives.

1. Locomotives that sound like 071's and English Electrics.
2. Locomotive hauled rolling stock, with doors that don't close.
3. Low cost of living, except booze. Mind, I am on my third LARGE Maekhong whiskey today, which serves as inspiration for my satire.
4. Good looking girls that may be girls, some of whom might shunt you when the lights go out.....check for Adams apple.
5. Safety.....whats safety? ....Common sense.....yes, use it. Sue? Who is she? Is she cute? Is she rich one ah? Oh you mean lawsuit lah......(cue chinese threats in red paint and pigs head on doorstep).

And more besides. In any case, with Air Asia these days, its a 500 Euro return flight from Stansted. Save your money on railtours and magazines, and more for a year, and you get your Diesel fix for 2 or 3 weeks.

Railways, quite frankly, need a Jeremy Clarkson figure to lobby for modernisation and development. Someone who can happily take a 141 and some Mark 2's and scrap them for fun at Hammond Lane. Then go....with a proper, decent train like the 22K, and say.

"Its a bit dull.....its quiet, but then......wait, for THIS"

(Turns on broadband, checks out the tea test at 100mph. You know.....what he would do with a Bugatti Veyron). Mind, Clarkson did drive a Diesel Loco in a documentary about big engines on Discovery.

But we are a very long way from that in Ireland, and I doubt now that it will ever happen with a developed motorway system thats getting ahead of the railway system.

To paraphrase Cromwell. Who......is second to the Antichrist to the West. The first on the antichrist list is Dr CS (Todd) Andrews. To get an idea of Irish society, his grandson now hosts the Late Late show. Although, I am not going to be a begrudger, I actually admire both.

In the name of all that is good you have done enough damage. Take yourselves to another third world kip and lobby them for railway development and check out "Blood Sweat and Takeaways" to get a grip of reality and social justice.
________________________________________________________________

But lets return on topic.

I've made good friends here on this board, on railusers.ie, on Platform11, and on Irishrailwaynews. Most people, even many trainspotters know whats needed and accept it. The arguments made in favour of railfreight (for example), which is one sacred cow, do not convince me. The fact is, that I am no longer resident in Ireland. Before this economic crisis took place, I wanted to return. But now.....not coming back anytime soon, am I qualified to criticise or lobby. Frankly, I am no better than Alan Helfner in New Jersey, the moderator in Leighton Buzzard. I am in Kuala Lumpur, a suburb of Dublin some 10,000 kilometers EAST of Dublin.

Ireland never really had the kind of economic structure to support railfreight in the European, Asian or American format. Heavy Industry sustains railfreight, it is its lifeblood. The heavy Industries it attempted to create were artificial, subsidised and horrendously wasteful, on a Soviet scale.

50 years ago, a whole swathe of the Northwest had its railways cut out, and that now serves to end the entire system in the future, by virtue of the argument.

"If Cavan can survive, if Monaghan can survive, if Donegal can survive, then why not......Ballina, Roscrea, etc"

And......Navan.....a town that WAS projected to reach 30,000 while the boom took place, and is likely to be hit hardest by this economic downturn.

Gorey, where, essentially speaking, you COULD get your home cheaper, at 200,000 Euro at the peak of the boom, but easily spend 10,000 per annum on commuting costs alone to pay for that.

The same applies to many towns and suburbs in Dublin, Cork and Limerick. Its also, why.....I now despise the Green Party and their Greenwashing.

"Lets ban cars from A, B, C....

And increase public transport fares by 10%"

A plague on both our houses. Be it motorists, AA, bus and railusers alike.

The Northern line is closed for at least 3 months, and it is there, that we truly see the real impact on commuters. We see the real loss of custom, of revenue, of confidence, of faith.

15 years ago, in Malaysia, a motorway opened from North to South. It is 400 miles long. Prior to that, there were 5 x 15 coach expresses daily running North to South. Today, they are now 5 coaches long, running, at best 3 times daily. In Ireland, the very same thing will happen within 10 years.

There will be massive fare increases to bridge the deficit.
There will be massive cutbacks.
Iarnrod Eireann Intercity was hanging on a thread at best.

I believe Iarnrod Eireanns engineers are sickened by the possible priority allocated to Claremorris, a town of 14,000 people. They are repelled by the idea of Tuam, a town of 6,000 people.

They can't get a grip of the reality that .....

Fix whats broken first, develop that, use that as justification and leverage for future development. For capital investment of less than 50 Million Euro, the Nenagh branch and Clonmel lines could be rebuilt, marketed properly, and THAT used as justification for future investment.

That was done successfully with the Dublin to Sligo line, a route which has doubled its traffic levels in 5 years. Thats remarkable.

But.....if you want to be banned.

Mention.

2 Freight trains per week....being a success (cough, cough).
Todd Andrews and Richard Beeching as being ahead of their time.
The likely arguments that would take place if there was an Internet in the 1960s'
The possibility that virtually every railway closure that took place in Ireland took place due to level crossings, tight curves, steep gradients, which all cause slow speeds, and the very features that railway enthusiasts the world over seem to love. Only ONE railway that closed was built to proper heavy rail standards and could have been rebuilt.

That is Clonsilla to Navan. The rest....forget it, and a even a mere look at the old formations on google earth proves that.

Sponge Bob

This is all a tad irrelevant when the IMF is highly likely to shut most of the network down next year bar Belfast - Dublin - Cork and the Dart .

The 22 class and the rest of the railcars will probably find themselves in Malaysia by end 2011

dermo88

There are only two countries which they are compatible with, due to the Irish 5'3" gauge.

Parts of Brazil, parts of Australia.

The point regarding the IMF is a good one. If anything, Iarnrod Eireann is likely to be privatised. This represents a huge opportunity to remove the cancerous entity that is CIE.

If anything, what stays open, and in 1995, I was asked.

"As a railway enthusiast, what do you think can survive in Ireland"

1. Dublin-Cork
2. Limerick Jctn-Limerick-Ennis-Athenry
3. Portarlington-Galway
4. Dublin-Sligo (n.b this only survives because of its renewal and traffic growth, and only from 2000 onwards)
5. Kildare-Waterford (As per 4, BUT only if a service avoiding Kilkenny is ALSO implemented, with a split of 2 x 3 cars at Bagenalstown)
Athlone-Westport only survives from 2000 onwards after the rebuild)
6. Dublin-Wexford (as per 4 and 5, up until 1999, beyond Arklow was likely to close, from 2002 beyond Gorey, today I'd say Wexford to Rosslare is likely to get the chop)
7. Mallow-Tralee.

Part of #2 and #6 do not compete with road to any degree.

The rest won't make it. If Iarnrod Eireann don't want them, privatise them. Go back to the 1st or 2nd page of the thread, written in 2004. It is prophetic. The losses sustained are on the busiest routes. Closures in the old fashioned sense will barely save 20 Million Euro. They did'nt work before, they won't work now, so building on success and going for growth is the only game now.

They would save a lot more money by applying a nominal charge on the use of "free travel" for pensioners, such as 50 Cent for Commuter runs and 5 Euro for Intercity (per trip). One reason that is easily forgotten is that the network survived was down to Charles Haughey giving pensioners free travel. Not often I say something good about him, and after mentioning his name, I think another Maekhong Whiskey is required, if only to remove the bad taste in my mouth.

westtip

dermo88 wrote: »

Mind, I am on my third LARGE Maekhong whiskey today, which serves as inspiration for my satire.
.

Dermo great post really enjoyed reading it - go and have another drink and come back with more.

dermo88

DING......Just had a 4th one.

Let me have a look at my archives. I think it was a prayer for railway development going back to the Halcyon days of election 2007. Shame on me, I lobbied for Fianna Fail on the basis that they claimed the glory when they were around, so they could always clean up the mess.

Over the years, I have to give thanks to Derek, the boys from Platform 11. A couple of guys from Irishrailwaynews, and Calina, zoney, Transport21Fan, mdowling, Schuhart, amongst others.

Heres a gem from June 5th 2006:

Trinity College has major reservations about Metro Tunneling – June 5th 2006:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=51492250#post51492250

They are under starters orders, and they are OFF on the run for the trough.

The three pillars of the Irish economy, or Ireland Inc, or more likely the friends of Fianna Fail now start their merry run for the trough, filled with juicy Transport 21 contracts. On special offer today, we have 50 Million Euro tribunals, for your old school buddies who are now lawyers and solicitors from Belvedere College, Blackrock College, Synge Street, the old CBS, UCD, TCD, STD. We know things have been bad lately with the sad demise of Liam Lawlor and Ray Burke has now been found out, so this one is especially for you boys.

And don't forget your little donation to the cummann. This one is for the legal profession. We hope racing results at Galway are better this August weekend, we have only 2 months left to the latest list of juicy contracts at our beertent, by invitation only.

The next race is the Builders and Landowners handicap, sponsored, yet again, by Bertie, Martin and friends. We hope you can join us, at a racecourse somewhere in the west of Ireland. We are here to celebrate the Celtic Tiger, high cost of living, crap infrastructure, and we know you are helping us to keep it that way.

We also have on todays card the Commuter Funders handicap drive. This is gratefully sponsored by the Motor federation of Ireland, AA Roadwatch, NRA and CIE. 50 years Ensuring that you will spend 1/3 of your life on the road, because the trains don't run to your place yet.

Then theres the immortal "Transylvania on Track" 30th April 2007:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=53159446#post53159446

Which included the prayer:

"Our Todd, who art in Heuston, hallowed be thine name
Thine branch lines gone, enthusiasts moan
In Ireland as it is in Britain
Give us this day our daily train
And deliver us from Beeching
And lead us under Phoenix Park
But deliver us from Cravens"

Altogether now.......let us pray.

"You believe in Branch lines, carrying next to nothing
You believe in Maedhbh, the greatest of steam engines
Born of a broke nation, she arose through the gullet
Crucified with Turf, and buried under Bulleid
A Metrovick replaced thee and did Dublin to Cork in 2 1/2 hours
She spoke through EMD, and replaced by a 201
Scrapped in Hammond Lane and turned to useful razorblades
We believe in Multiple Units
High Speed Trains
The Metro
The Interconnector
Buses that link with trains
Integrated Transport, and the end of CIE.

Amen.

Deliver us Todd from CIE, and in your spirit, Slipthru and the ILDA. Grant us rail to Navan in our time, and peace from breakdowns on the Enterprise in your day. In your mercy, keep us free of Baby GM's and Cravens, and keep 2900's off Intercity. May the Rotems be utterly reliable on test and last 40 years.

We ask this through Transport21,

Amen.

Judgement Day

Sponge Bob where do you get off with your nonsense? The IMF won't be coming nearer Ireland any time soon and what's left of the rail network is likely to outlive most of us. If you really think things are that bad I am surprised that you can work up enough energy/enthusiasm to get out of bed to switch your PC on in the morning. Relax, perhaps your not old enough to remember the 1970s?

westtip

JD don't count your chickens re the IMF we are being watched by our German masters like a hawk, they won't allow us to keep on borrowing 400 million a week of their hard earned savings to finance an over inflated public service a huge social security bill and a political elite who spend the Germanys money in a fashion which is hard to comprehend - and just to stay on thread they won't let us build the WRC cos ........................................................................... Well, I didn't want to write that book again;


Hard facts will have to be faced otherwise I think Spongebob is right the boys with their clipboards will arrive, and it will be carnage:( sorry but the truth is going to hurt, the party is over we are now picking up the debris and very soon ..........................the bill

By the way Dermo what on earth are you on today apart from that whisky??

Sponge Bob

I explained elsewhere on Boards in recent times that it is not €400m a week either ...it is in fact over €600m a week .

The country is running a deficit of 2 x Annual IE subventions a week over its income .

westtip

Scary stuff. they will come in with the clip boards, give us a link to yoru 600m theory, I don't doubt it is a lot more than we are being told.

Sponge Bob

It was €21bn by end august comprising -€18.7bn in the exchequer statement and c. -€2.3bn of a run down of the Social Insurance Fund or €21bn total as the latter is not in the exchequer statement .

34 weeks gone of the year , that makes it €620m a week spent so far this year .

Even if you leave out bank recaps of €6bn ( over 34 weeks too) they have spent €444m a week excepting that .

Finally the deficit was €18,733Bn in August and €16,439Bn in July . There are 4.33 weeks in a month so that was €530m deficit a week between 01/08 and 31/08 and there were no bank bailouts either . About 2 IE subventions were spent a week for the month that was in it .

Put it yet another way , that burn rate in August is 1% of GNP every 3 weeks

But I have been trying to educate the enthusiasts in this forum on what reality looks like for a long time , it is hard sometimes !

westtip

eeks Sponge those figures make it look pretty bad - which we all know it is. I have come to the conclusion that the WRC debate is effectively dead and buried really on two grounds:

1) the money is not there for it and

2) If it was even muted it will happen the rest of the country woudl say WTF are they wasting what little money we have on this project for - Enough is enough, this one does not get the vote of popular confidence anymore (if it ever did), it is a very low down the agenda item and will never get to the top of the agenda probably in our lifetimes - and that includes top of the agenda for people actually living in the west

this parrot is definitely dead.

Good to see this thread did not get moved to infrastucture - kind of says something doesn't it?

Sponge Bob

A Very Very Dead Parrot Westip

I gave this warning below a year ago in this forum. Only one material thing has changed since and that was the intended portal moving from Heuston to Inchicore, thankfully . IE will reconfigure itself to defend what it has for the foreseeable future.

Otherwise it was as predicted with the launch of the likes of Gobus.ie only 4 months later .

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57243855&postcount=6

"Quote:
Originally Posted by T Corolla
"There will be a big shift back to public transport "

Not if cars are much faster than trains . The Galway - Dublin train will be no faster than it was in 1968 or even possibly 1948 ( well over 2 hours) while a car will do it in less than 2 hours outside the rush hour ...by 2010.

The move will more likely be to EXPRESS buses at the expense of rail post 2010 .

The Motorways will simply murder Iarnród Éireann I fear . A fully functioning interconnector is at least 10 years away seeing as Iarnród Éireann only propose to build part of it ( the underground bit in Dublin ) for starters .

The stretch of line between Ballyfermot and Inchicore will be a severely bottlenecked twin track with grossly insufficient capacity for peak commuter and intercity rail for a long time to come .

Only when the 3 mile section from Heuston to Cherry Orchard is widened to a full 4 Track and with full separation between Dart and Intercity can we hope to see an expeditious Intercity Rail Service . "

skelliser

http://www.galwayindependent.com/letters/letters/potential-for-irish-railways-is-huge-/

Dear Editor,
Later this year we expect the first phase of the Western Rail Corridor to open. Work on the line between Ennis and Athenry is nearing completion and the first train is expected to travel between Limerick and Galway in early December. While this will not initially be a full Intercity service, it will be an historic and very positive occasion at a time when most things in this country are going backwards.

Many young people in Dublin are surprised when I tell them that there is currently no train service between the Republic's second, third and fourth cities or indeed that there is no rail link in the West to Sligo, Derry or Donegal. Some older and, supposedly, wiser heads consider the Western Rail Corridor a 'vanity project' or a 'toy railway', just as they considered the DART a vanity project and a toy railway in the past. Few would agree with that now and I believe that few will consider the Western Rail Corridor to be anything less than a vital piece of infrastructure in years to come.

They are entitled to their opinions, but the two million or so people who live along the western seaboard from Kerry to Derry are tired of being treated as second class citizens by Dublin academics who see the West as a place to visit during the summer months when they get bored of sitting around in their ivory towers. This is the only major public transport project left in the National Development Plan in a region with more inhabitants than Dublin. By any fair and balanced analysis, the cost per kilometre is better value than any other single project in the National Development Plan. Surely this is a 'no brainer'?

The potential for Irish railways is huge. It could be possible to travel between any of the five major cities in the Republic in under three hours and to Dublin in under two hours without any major additional cost. This would, however, require imagination and organisation. Do we as a nation have these abilities? Time will tell.

In the meantime, the Western Rail Corridor must continue. The next phase from Galway to Tuam will help alleviate Ireland's worst traffic bottleneck in Claregalway for a fraction of the cost of a single Nama loan. If Iarnrod Eireann can't do the job, give it over to the local community and we'll do it better ourselves.

Yours sincerely,
Niall O Brolchain,
West on Track,
Galway City

Victor

westtip wrote: »

this parrot is definitely dead.

Oh, not its not....

Oh, yes it is ...

westtip

Victor wrote: »

Oh, not its not....

Oh, yes it is ...

The parrot Victor is dead - unfortunately those who think they own the parrot are not particularly good at recognising just how dead their parrot is. One poorly written letter to a minor paper in the west of ireland will not justify the campaign - the campaign is barely alive and kicking, but the parrot is actually dead.

The letter seems more defensive than usual - at least they have given up making claims this will bring thousands of jobs to the west -one of the many claims they made in the past, much to the hilarity of innocent by-standers.

Unfortunately the western media will very rarely print anything which argues coherently against the WRC, but they will give acres of print space to WOT, it suits them to do so; the editors of these journals are just that way inclined. Anyway the letter is naive beyond belief and as per usual reduces the case for WOT to the usual tirade against D4, it doesn't wash, we all know that...

The parrot is most definitely dead ---- BTW I love that hilarious bit about giving it over to the local community and they will run it themselves - yeah right - WOT planet are these people actually on??

dermo88

What to watch out for. These are personal observations, and not to be taken too seriously. Moderators....don't get upset please!!!

1. Never trust anyone on TV, less than 5'10" tall wearing a Double breasted suit, unless they are overweight.

(invariably will exhibit signs of power craze and megalomania...refer to Padraig Flynn. Fashion tastes pre 1998 do not count)

2. Never trust anyone with a toupee, or a wig, or a combover. They are attempting to cover up one mild imperfection which people would accept. They are likely to be covering up a lot more. Examples may include Senator Donie Cassidy, Lorcan Allen of Gorey, and Jackie Healy Rae of Kenmare.....You can add in others as you proceed.

3. Never trust anyone who signs their name in Irish. (Often an attempt to sound more important than they are).

3. Do not trust those who make spurious arguments for such projects.

4. Do....just once, go to the church for Sunday Mass, and watch the first 10 in the congregation who go to Holy Communion. Invariably, one or two will be local councillors. Another is likely to be seen at the local "public conveniences" soliciting services. They are likely to be holier than thou hypocrites of the highest order. (This theory may well be dying out, but it was certainly valid in the mid 1990's). It also, by the way applies to Mosques and Synagogues, where the ones up front are the most arrogant, pompous and dishonest businessmen you are likely to encounter, so rest assured, ireland is not alone in that one ladies and gentlemen.

5. Watch out for dubious comparisons with other projects and bailouts. Much as I despise NAMA, and the other.....its a spurious comparison.

6. Never trust those who put county ahead of country.

This information came inspired by the Western Association of National Knowledge Economic Research Study, sponsored by the Sligo Land Use and Transport Study.

As we move on to the letter from Niall O'Brollchain, we see the following:

Dublin academics who see the West as a place to visit during the summer months when they get bored of sitting around in their ivory towers

help alleviate Ireland's worst traffic bottleneck in Claregalway for a fraction of the cost of a single Nama loan

Fill in the gaps in the rest......

Ham'nd'egger

Victor wrote: »

Oh, not its not....

Oh, yes it is ...

It's just resting. Or is that West-ing?:)

fh041205

Hamndegger wrote: »

It's just resting. Or is that West-ing?:)

Lovely plumage though. I may not be of any use to you, but it does look good.