Western Rail Corridor

Cool Mo D

corktina wrote: »

i would like to see some justification of those times....Citylink dont take two hours Gal to Lim as far as I know .How long do you imagine the train will take? You arent expecting a direct service are you///or a connection at Athenry.

Lose the attitude BTW

It can easily take more than 2 hours to drive from Limerick city to Galway city at morning or evening peak, so I don't see how the bus would be faster. It's a 90 minute drive from Eyre square to O'Connell street in perfect conditions. It will improve, but both Galway and Limerick are nightmares to drive into or thorugh. It takes under an hour to drive from the northern outskirts of Limerick to the eastern outskirts of Galway usually though.

corktina

Cool Mo D wrote: »

It can easily take more than 2 hours to drive from Limerick city to Galway city at morning or evening peak, so I don't see how the bus would be faster. It's a 90 minute drive from Eyre square to O'Connell street in perfect conditions. It will improve, but both Galway and Limerick are nightmares to drive into or thorugh. It takes under an hour to drive from the northern outskirts of Limerick to the eastern outskirts of Galway usually though.

BUS LANES

Zoney

corktina:

Unfortunately there's probably more chance of a railway to Donegal than Limerick city getting bus lanes. Too many well-off residents and self-interested businesses (what other kind is there?) who have councillors looking out for their interests rather than the public's (especially that section of the public that might be using public transport).

antoinolachtnai

You could build an awful lot of bus lanes and appease an awful lot of residents for the cost of setting up and running a train service.

corktina

there is already a bus lane all the way to the new Bridge...what more is needed? Thats practically in the city centre

Victor

Deleted User wrote: »

Westtip, if you want to talk about the politics of the Western Rail Corridor, could you and the morons who want to argue for and against you f*ck off over to either the Politics section of boards.ie or even better to www.politics.ie and leave the rest of us who don't give a sh*t but might consider getting to Limerick from Galway or Ballinasloe and wonder when we can do that.

Tone it down. The rest of you need to be less reactionary also.

corktina,

The Railway line is built.

The money has been spent.

Deal with it.

Stop whinging.

Head over to Bus v. Rail if you want to whinge about money spent.

Victor, I'm sorry. I just think that the political and the practical sides of the Western Rail Corridor discussion should be seperated.

And in all this, I forgot to thank Ham'n'dagger for answering my original question.

Cheers Ham.

Tech3

How many rail crossings are we looking at on the N18 from Gort to Oranmore?

It's going to be a traffic nightmare

Chris_533976

Two. But the trains will be so infrequent anyway it wont make much difference.

corktina

Deleted User wrote: »

corktina,

The Railway line is built.

The money has been spent.

Deal with it.

Stop whinging.

Head over to Bus v. Rail if you want to whinge about money spent.

Victor, I'm sorry. I just think that the political and the practical sides of the Western Rail Corridor discussion should be seperated.

Post reported.If you cant discuss this in a civilised fashion, please dont post at all.Im quite happy to argue on the basis of facts with you.

westtip

Cool Mo D wrote: »

It can easily take more than 2 hours to drive from Limerick city to Galway city at morning or evening peak, so I don't see how the bus would be faster. It's a 90 minute drive from Eyre square to O'Connell street in perfect conditions. It will improve, but both Galway and Limerick are nightmares to drive into or thorugh. It takes under an hour to drive from the northern outskirts of Limerick to the eastern outskirts of Galway usually though.

If your destination is the city centre - then congestion is inevitable - However in the way urban planning has gone (not just in Galway) but in many large towns and cities - The City centre is no longer the main destination - for shopping it is the out of town retail parks and for work, the out of town technology and industrial parks. One of the main issues with the whole WRC thing is - for many potential commuters it won't actually serve the main centres of employment in Galway - Balybrit, University, Hospital, without a significant onward journey - which will all add to the cost, inconvenience and timing of the journey, people will say sod it and stay in their cars - buses with good bus lanes actually directed at the places people terminate their journey to work, university or hospital would address far more of the transport issues that the WRC will not. This is not a comment on the politics of the WRC but on what it will actually deliver in terms of transport solutions - the answer is - not a lot.

Cool Mo D

westtip wrote: »

If your destination is the city centre - then congestion is inevitable - However in the way urban planning has gone (not just in Galway) but in many large towns and cities - The City centre is no longer the main destination - for shopping it is the out of town retail parks and for work, the out of town technology and industrial parks.

It certainly is an issue that the city centre has competition from out-of-town retail. But definitely for Galway, and I would say for Limerick too, the city centre is clearly the centre for retail and offices. The out of town shopping centres are more geared towards lower value, or one off large purchases, such as homewares, and garden supplies. There is no browsing culture as such in the big box retailers. Even most big box retailers in Galway are a very short walk from the city centre - around the cinema mostly. Although Limerick does have a large out of town shopping centre, as opposed to the big box stores, I doubt it has close to as much usage as the city centre.
But blaming the WRC for not serving these new developments is a red herring - by their very nature they are low density car-centric, and cannot be effectively served by ANY public transport. I agree that the lack of an efficient bus network in the cities is a far more pressing matter than the WRC, but an efficient bus network is not compatible with the shopping and working in out of town retail and technology parks. You can have easy parking and driving to your out of town retail, or you can have a compact city with good public transport, but if you try and combine the two, you will get a half assed mess, which we have now.

westtip wrote: »

One of the main issues with the whole WRC thing is - for many potential commuters it won't actually serve the main centres of employment in Galway - Balybrit, University, Hospital, without a significant onward journey - which will all add to the cost, inconvenience and timing of the journey, people will say sod it and stay in their cars - buses with good bus lanes actually directed at the places people terminate their journey to work, university or hospital would address far more of the transport issues that the WRC will not. This is not a comment on the politics of the WRC but on what it will actually deliver in terms of transport solutions - the answer is - not a lot.

The University and the Hospital are easy walking distance from the train station. Ballybrit is a good point. Personally, I think the money for the WRC would have been better spent on doubling the track into Galway, and building a park-and-ride station at Oranmore, and laying on shuttle buses to Ballybrit, with, dare-to-dream, integrated ticketing for rail and bus in Galway.
If they were going to build the WRC at all, they should have built it right, on a new alignment to Oranmore. It would have cost a larger fortune, but it would at least have been a viable rail link. The way it is now, it cost a small fortune, and is very little good to anyone.
One of the issues with bus lanes in Galway (and Limerick) is where do you put them? They need to be reasonably continuous for a route, and I can't think of many roads with the room to add one.

westtip

Cool Mo D wrote: »

But blaming the WRC for not serving these new developments is a red herring -.

Don't get me wrong I am not blaming the WRC for anything - I just don't think it is the right solution for transport in the car dependent West of Ireland, and simply opening up a railway alignment that swings east from the city to Athenry before coming into the city - was not a transport solution that should have been countenanced. Those that campaigned for its opening have been campaigning for nearly 30 years for this line to re-open - without taking into account of how the country has changed in those 30 years, As has been said on this thread before - the WRC even when it does open will probably not have the service levels required to allow it to be a success, herein lies its achilles heel from the very start - the critical mass to provide a commuter type service does not exist, so the service IE will provide is likely to be limited. Double tracking from Athenry into Galway would have made emminent sense, but because it hasn't happened this will effect the service. The "Corridor" does not exist - it is in fact a T junction - because of the in and out of Galway factor. The drivers to provide the service levels aren't there and nor probably is the rolling stock. OK so the southern section has been built lets see how it gets on - Some folk on this thread have given the attitude its great because its happening, well yes it will add some value - but in terms of a transport solution for the West of Ireland and for the Galway congestion - I have my doubts - now I may be proven wrong - and if I am so be it - I just happen to think it won't deliver cos its a round peg for a square hole. Let the trains roll and see what happens.

westtip

Any news on a timetable for the WRC Ennis-Athenry Galway section yet? Just wondered. Heard from a personal IE source today it is unlikely to be up and running pre Christmas - Any other news from anyone else.

holidaygirl

westtip I heard that it will be opened in about 3 or 4 weeks also from staff member at IE.

westtip

holidaygirl wrote: »

westtip I heard that it will be opened in about 3 or 4 weeks also from staff member at IE.

I was told the line would not be handed over to IE operations until early December and then with rostering issues to be sorted out etc they would not be running services until the new year.....who knows...A minister will pop up on the TV one day amidst fanfares and bunting supporters and well wishers and half a dozen folk who want to use the line. His speech will be along the lines of "this line is a monument to the persistence of a campaign that has been a pain in the butt to us in the department for countless years well I am telling you lot now if this section does't hit its numbers you can forget about the rest of this forlorn plan to waste more our time and money" he will also of course mention that times are hard and priorities need to be made, etc (well this is what it will say if you read between the lines...)

Its the wet Tuesday morning in February when the fanfare has gone and the bunting is put away that will prove the most interesting...

munchkin_utd

Thats getting very near all right.

Any idea on the type (for want of a better word) of the services to be provided?
There was mention of a direct Limerick to Galway service but is there any prospect or plan for Cork to Galway direct, or with only 1 change?

Even limerick junction to Galway direct would be a pretty acceptable journey when coming from Cork.

kiwipower

Now theres an Idea! I had only been thinking of getting from Limerick to Work in Galway! but having a Cork option would be fantastic now they have stopped the M20! Am just hoping they think of work commuters and have a train leaving Limerick to be in Galway by 08:30 or even 08:00! Just a dam shame I wont be able to take my push bike on it! would make it easier to get to/ from train stations home and work!

Chris_533976

I've been saying from the very start that a Cork to Galway service would be good, but knowing IE, it'll be 3 trains. Cork to Limerick Junction, Limerick Junction to Limerick, Limerick to Galway. The thought of a useful service would just be too much for them IMO.

Cool Mo D

Chris_533976 wrote: »

I've been saying from the very start that a Cork to Galway service would be good, but knowing IE, it'll be 3 trains. Cork to Limerick Junction, Limerick Junction to Limerick, Limerick to Galway. The thought of a useful service would just be too much for them IMO.

Definitely.

I think IE should do one of two things - either combine Ennis-Limerick, Limerick-Limerick Junction, and Limerick Junction - Waterford to form a direct Galway-Waterford service (doable in about 4 hours), maybe 3/4 times a day, with maybe a few extra Ennis-Limerick shuttles, OR Run WRC services all the way to Cork. There is clearly huge demand for Cork-Galway services on the bus, it would be doable in about 3.5 hours on the train - reasonably competitive with the car.

The trains are already running in a bitty, fragmented way, so why not link them up to run a proper service?

Nostradamus

the rumour is that there will be now only four trains a day in each direction instead of the propsed 8.

Can anyone confirm this?

KC61

Nostradamus wrote: »

the rumour is that there will be now only four trains a day in each direction instead of the propsed 8.

Can anyone confirm this?

Last I heard it was suggested to be 5 per day.

westtip

What's so hilarious about all this is the complete and utter lack of concrete information, I mean lets face it this is one of the most debated pieces of rail line in the history of irish rail - it has been antcipated to open at "sometime" during 2009 now for .....well all of 2009.....the latest opening date has been touted as December, however there is no information available yet .... It makes me laugh really, about the incompetence of this company (IE).

You see don't get me wrong but it is usual when launching a new product to have a vague idea of what you are going to be offering your customers - lets say more than four weeks in advance - and well be able to tell them about it - Just out of mischief more than anything else I rang IE today and asked for the marketing department - I was given a number and got through to somone who said this is the Dort Marketing (incapable of saying the word Dart as in piece of art or did a a f**t, this pretensious voice said no this is Dort Marketing - can you believe this company has separate marketing departments for Dort, Mainline and err well who knows what.

Anyway let me continue with this farce on the Dort, Miss Dort "ah yes" she said "the Western Rail Corridor - isn't that the one out in the west" (one would actually struggle to write a script like this - but there you go Derek you can add this to the film script), "err yes thats the one" says I, Miss Dort "Oh I will need to get someone to call you back on that one cna I have your number" gave the number.....not heard yet.

Now one of the great claims of those advocating this project - is that it will need to be marketed and promoted in order to succeed.....so what is the pre-marketing campaign like supposedly 4 weeks before opening (4 weeks is based on the fact it has been said publically this will be open by Christmas - remember the story about Christmas shoppers fighting about whether to go to Galway or Limerick - or just jump in their cars and go to Outlet Land....)

Well I do feel sorry for ye all as the marketing it appears will be in the hands of the likes of Miss Dort who I spoke to and I don't think Saatchi and Scratchi have been bought into mastermind or spearhead the campaign.....So my dears at IE do you actually know when it will be opened ---- I await the phone call and will of course keep ye all posted....

or are we all in the dark - or is that the dork? Mines a Heino please....

munchkin_utd

how would it be any other way?
In their business plan (scanned in document somewhere on the www) they expect 200k passengers annually and a shortfall of day to day revenue of 2 million euro which the government is going to have to cover by way of subsidies.
So what does it matter about marketing or anything? The government will cover the shortfall so who cares really inside the railway about how many people actually use the service.

And meanwhile bus operators will operate in parallel to the railway, taking away 10s if not 100s of thousand of potential paying customers for the new rail link.
i.e. 12 busses a day*50passengers*364 days * 2 ways = 436k passengers.
If you transfered this to rail @a tenner each way, thats a potential revenue of 4.36 million euro.

IF the government was to simply withdraw the bus licences and have exclusive rail connection between Galway and Limerick, the rail could easily break even, or make a few million profit.
Meaning then theres no need for any rail subsidy.

But heck. That would be "anti competive" probably.
Because its more important for the government to aide some business man with a bus company to make cash than to reduce the amount of subsidies being shoveled about the place.

Nostradamus

westtip wrote: »

You see don't get me wrong but it is usual when launching a new product to have a vague idea of what you are going to be offering your customers - lets say more than four weeks in advance - and well be able to tell them about it - J

Amazing. But hardly surprising in CIE land. You compare that the RPA and Luas. When Shamrock Rovers were just about to move into their new stadium in Tallaght. Some of the Red Line Luas Carraiges were covered in Shamrock Rovers Team Colours. This was to establish the Red Line as what one takes to see Rovers play. End results tens of thousands of new customers a year for the red line. I went to see Bohs play there a few weeks back and several trams were packed with Bohs supporters going to Tallaght. Now compare that to IE with much more massive stadiums of Croke Park and Landsdowne Road with stations right next to them which they close on match days!

I think CIE have commission a new hanging basket at Ballymote. or should I say "hounging bouskuts"

dowlingm

Cool Mo D wrote: »

The trains are already running in a bitty, fragmented way, so why not link them up to run a proper service?

I think a more important question is why this isn't happening already. At present a person looking to book from Ennis to Cork or Dublin or Waterford will see two changes at Limerick and LJ. S/he should only see one, at LJ. Extending that logic to Galway-LJ is obvious but how can we be confident of seeing it happen when IE don't exploit the opportunities they have now?

DWCommuter

munchkin_utd wrote: »

how would it be any other way?
In their business plan (scanned in document somewhere on the www) they expect 200k passengers annually and a shortfall of day to day revenue of 2 million euro which the government is going to have to cover by way of subsidies.
So what does it matter about marketing or anything? The government will cover the shortfall so who cares really inside the railway about how many people actually use the service.

And meanwhile bus operators will operate in parallel to the railway, taking away 10s if not 100s of thousand of potential paying customers for the new rail link.
i.e. 12 busses a day*50passengers*364 days * 2 ways = 436k passengers.
If you transfered this to rail @a tenner each way, thats a potential revenue of 4.36 million euro.

IF the government was to simply withdraw the bus licences and have exclusive rail connection between Galway and Limerick, the rail could easily break even, or make a few million profit.
Meaning then theres no need for any rail subsidy.

But heck. That would be "anti competive" probably.
Because its more important for the government to aide some business man with a bus company to make cash than to reduce the amount of subsidies being shoveled about the place.

You were going well there munchkin until this last bit;

IF the government was to simply withdraw the bus licences and have exclusive rail connection between Galway and Limerick, the rail could easily break even, or make a few million profit.
Meaning then theres no need for any rail subsidy.

Are you serious? So the panacea to rail subsidies is to have "exclusive" rail services while righting off "anti-competitive" as a Government conspiracy to keep some businessmen with a bus company making money?

Note to JD and Nostradamus: Did you read that bit before adding a thank you to the post?

dowlingm

Nostradamus wrote: »

This was to establish the Red Line as what one takes to see Rovers play. End results tens of thousands of new customers a year for the red line. I went to see Bohs play there a few weeks back and several trams were packed with Bohs supporters going to Tallaght. Now compare that to IE with much more massive stadiums of Croke Park and Landsdowne Road with stations right next to them which they close on match days!

Distance from Thomond Park to the Ennis line where it crosses the R464/Longpavement Road is 1,150m or about 2/3 of a mile, or about the same as Connolly to Croke Park. Gaelic Grounds is a bit more of a hike admittedly at about 2.3km (1.5 miles) if no shortcuts through housing estates.

dowlingm

DWCommuter wrote: »

Are you serious? So the panacea to rail subsidies is to have "exclusive" rail services while righting off "anti-competitive" as a Government conspiracy to keep some businessmen with a bus company making money?

Not to mention that some people in places like Shannon would be a little put out by having a brilliant bus service replaced by a hike to Sixmilebridge...