Let the Mud-Slinging begin

flogen

So it looks like Bush and Co have faced facts and taked Kerry as their challenger, and so the mud slinging begins.
Kerry has now been linked sexually to an ex-intern, which has been denied, and a picture has gone around the net with him at an anti Vietnam war demo with Jane Fonda, which has been revealed to have been faked.

On the other side, Kerry is now ignoring his Democrat rivals and is focusing on Bush, calling him a liar about Iraq and a draft dodger in reference to his national guard service.....

I am admitadly on the side of Kerry anyway, but it seems to me that his tactics have some foundations, while the republicans are just playing dirty really...

so do you all think this is going to be an election won by debating the issues at hand or through dirty tricks?

Flogen

bonkey

Originally posted by flogen
so do you all think this is going to be an election won by debating the issues at hand or through dirty tricks?

Well lets see...

Bush, in the last election, promised to change the tone of politics - to get rid of the mud-slinging etc. He then went on to cast more dirt than anyone, and seems to be starting his current campaign in pretty much the exact same way.

Kerry has yet to be seen to make an issue over something which is not factually true, but he is definitely not adverse to a bit f muck-raking....

I expect this to be another classic cat-fight.

jc

shotamoose

What's wrong with being seen with Jane Fonda in the 70s, anyway? I wouldn't have minded

sovtek

Originally posted by shotamoose
What's wrong with being seen with Jane Fonda in the 70s, anyway? I wouldn't have minded

There's this thing in America about Jane Fonda. That she was a traitor or some such ****. People that believe that seem to have forgotten people like Ron Kovic who fought in Vietnam only to return and protest against it.
Kerry seems to have had a principled stand against the Vietnam war after experiencing it first hand.
Unfortunetly he didn't have the same principles when it came time to vote for the unconstitutional legislation giving Bush full war powers.

Ever seen Barbarella?

therecklessone

Jane Fonda is viewed as a traitor because she visited North Korea in 1972. I saw some footage from the visit on TV this week, in which she was pictured laughing and joking with NVA troops. Its no surprise she's hated so much.

sovtek

Originally posted by therecklessone
Jane Fonda is viewed as a traitor because she visited North Korea in 1972.

I thought it was Vietnam.

I saw some footage from the visit on TV this week, in which she was pictured laughing and joking with NVA troops. Its no surprise she's hated so much.

No it's not surprising....doesn't mean the "traitor" label is warranted.

emertoff

A sensible debate about the future direction of the world's largest economy has never had any relevance in a US Presidential Election. Does anyone really think things would be all that different under a Kerry administration? There may be a change in presentation with regard to Iraq if he did win, but that would be it. It amazes me that for an election of such utter importance that there will only be 2 candidates offering by and large the same sanitized program designed with the sole purpose of keeping Wall Street happy. By nature, I would lean towards the Democrats and hope Kerry wins. If anything, the sleaze allegations would proabably add to his appeal and there is always the possibility of his wife giving a "Stand By My Man" speech on Primetime to get a few million votes.

sovtek

Originally posted by emertoff
A sensible debate about the future direction of the world's largest economy has never had any relevance in a US Presidential Election. Does anyone really think things would be all that different under a Kerry administration? There may be a change in presentation with regard to Iraq if he did win, but that would be it. It amazes me that for an election of such utter importance that there will only be 2 candidates offering by and large the same sanitized program designed with the sole purpose of keeping Wall Street happy. By nature, I would lean towards the Democrats and hope Kerry wins. If anything, the sleaze allegations would proabably add to his appeal and there is always the possibility of his wife giving a "Stand By My Man" speech on Primetime to get a few million votes.

That's what happens when ya live in a plutocracy.
It's sad that pols that actually had grassroots support were sidelined, not only by the media but also their own party.
The debates are going to be a sham as well. If Nader runs you won't see him "invited" to take part as well all the "electability" heads will be screaming for him to shut up.

therecklessone

Originally posted by sovtek
I thought it was Vietnam.



No it's not surprising....doesn't mean the "traitor" label is warranted.

I'm making a habit of this...my bad, t'was North Vietnam indeed.

As for a traitor? I can see why anyone who fought in the war, regardless of their pro- or anti-war opinions at a later stage, would have a problem with a prominent US actress visiting the capital of the "enemy" and posing for propaganda shots with soldiers from an army which was fighting US troops at the time.

I wouldn't consider it a patriotic act. Would you?

sovtek

Originally posted by therecklessone
I'm making a habit of this...my bad, t'was North Vietnam indeed.

As for a traitor? I can see why anyone who fought in the war, regardless of their pro- or anti-war opinions at a later stage, would have a problem with a prominent US actress visiting the capital of the "enemy" and posing for propaganda shots with soldiers from an army which was fighting US troops at the time.

I wouldn't consider it a patriotic act. Would you?

I don't necessarily think supporting an aggressive action by your government is patriotic either. I can see how people would perceive it as unpatriotic. On the other hand our government attacked a sovereign nation that had severe reprecussions both at home and abroad, including the death of 58,000 Americans. One could further the argument and say that what she did was patriotic because she was trying to bring that to an end.

TomF

There is a long study of Jane Fonda and urban legends about her conduct in North Viet Nam at <http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/weekly/aa110399.htm>.

Sand

One could further the argument and say that what she did was patriotic because she was trying to bring that to an end.

Quickest way to end a war is to lose it. Working, even if only in terms of propaganda, to bring about the defeat of your own nation is unpatriotic. It maybe idealistic, it might even be the *correct and principled* course of action - but it is unpatriotic.

From what I heard she seems like a very stupid and foolish woman who utterly believed in the justness of her view to the point where she ignored the character of the enemy and happily posed with them - she apparently encouraged NVA AA gunners to shoot down US planes?

She might have opposed the war, but you can do so without cheerleading for the enemy - especially when the enemy were at least as bad as the government she opposed.

sceptre

This one is real, this one isn't.

(the second snopes link provides the two photos that were combined)

Some more info (and a nice urinal sticker) to add to TomF's rather informative link.

Redleslie

Originally posted by Sand
Working, even if only in terms of propaganda, to bring about the defeat of your own nation is unpatriotic. It maybe idealistic, it might even be the *correct and principled* course of action - but it is unpatriotic.

You could say the same about dodging the draft.

Sand

You could say the same about dodging the draft.

Really? Youd consider draft dodging to be unpatriotic? Thats rather radical isnt it?

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by emertoff
If anything, the sleaze allegations would proabably add to his appeal

I doubt that a nation (even if it was probably a small minority - the media didn't portray it that way) who went into a state of near cardiac arrest at the sight of Janet Jackson's semi-exposed breast could stomach the thought of being led by a less than wholesome family man. Alcoholics and drug abusers are fine though.

Redleslie

Originally posted by Sand
Really? Youd consider draft dodging to be unpatriotic? Thats rather radical isnt it?

It would depend really since there's a difference between a patriotic war and an imperial or nationalist war. Your hero George Orwell summed it up quite well in his essay Notes On Nationalism - "By "patriotism" I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power." Unfortunately, the right wing's lunatic fringe is usually either too stupid or too crazy to bother trying to distinguish the two. They just follow orders and believe what they're told no matter what. And that's why I suppose it's been said that more crimes have been committed through obedience than through disobedience.

So anyway, was Kerry being unpatriotic when he was spokesman for vietnam veterans against the war? And what about Muhammad "No VietCong Ever Called Me Ni**er" Ali?