Honda Civic Totally buggered now!

Jim-SR

Originally posted by Jim-SR
this cam offers the same economy as any other engine, NOT better!

here you go ive picked out the exact part you missed on your first read, look again, FOOL

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by Jim-SR
i own a toyota MR2 from the same era actually, and its no less economical than any VTEC engine ive ever experienced...

So did I, you obviously drive it like a granny. and don't call me actually u muppet.

Heres how it actually works......
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17183438

Jim-SR

on the roads i dont exactly rag it ALL the time, but if i ragged a civic that would give equally poor economy

theres a time and a place for that, and the car gets "driven" a fair bit

but if you care to see just how hard it can be driven id invite you to join me at a track day anytime! ive taught you how VTEC works, maybe i can teach you how to drive too

please dont try and redeem yourself, take this thread as a lesson learned, youve learnt how VTEC really works, and in future make sure youre 100% right before spouting poop, fair enuff get it wrong once, but dont come back and argue your wrong point against ppl who are right! reply AGAIN if you like, but i always have the last word

JIM

Stephen

Jim, take your head out of your arse.

bye now.

Gmodified

Jim u r full of silicon, which is probably brown too

RicardoSmith

..stop it you're too funny...

MojoMaker

Jim-SR, I can't wait unti I meet you on the road and I get to show you what performance is really about....

Man, you're one muppet. I'm surprised you don't have a Twinner.

Got the neon washers yet bud?

Jim-SR

neon washers? im the one who understands how cars work, you mugs dont even know what VTEC is!

im quite happy just working with my engine, dont really need the extra power from those LED washer jets, the quad hayabusa throttle bodies on the custom home-made inlet manifold, the HKS 256/256 cams, and the GReddy e-Manage, all running on a DIY rebuilt bottom end complete with high comp pistons and fully blueprinted block, running a 4agze LSD gearbox on modified driveshafts, and the 2.5" straight thru exhaust system should COMFORTABLY see me whooping your arse on the road, regardless of your car

me with the neon washer jets? call me arrogant, call me what you like really im not easily phased by monkeys calling me names on the internet, but i reckon i know as uch as any1 in here about cars, from what ive seen so far i know more than most ppl, i know what im talking about, im 100% right in EVERYTHING ive said so far, and you just cant handle the fact i speak the truth, and not what your little spastic buddy here thinks, VTEC for economy, hahaha read a book or summin, if you can read

peace out mofo
JIM

ZENER

Nice to see somone standin' by what they say Jm-SR. I was a member of hondaprelude.com while it was active and did a lot of research into V-TEC at the time when I had an Integra SXi 1.6 V-TEC DOHC and to be honest I can't fault anything you've posted so far axcept your methods in getting your points across.

More information about V-TEC can be gleened from templeofvtec.com. Oh how I miss www.hondaprelude.com . . sigh !!!

Honda for ever . . V-TEC is king !:D now if only I could afford an S2000 !

Tinky

Quatre Mains

Originally posted by Jim-SR
im quite happy just working with my engine, dont really need the extra power from those LED washer jets, the quad hayabusa throttle bodies on the custom home-made inlet manifold, the HKS 256/256 cams, and the GReddy e-Manage, all running on a DIY rebuilt bottom end complete with high comp pistons and fully blueprinted block, running a 4agze LSD gearbox on modified driveshafts, and the 2.5" straight thru exhaust system should COMFORTABLY see me whooping your arse on the road, regardless of your car ....

peace out mofo
JIM

Wow
never has the term Cool Newbie been more appropriate. You really showed them there :rolleyes:

RicardoSmith

It obviously is a problem for some reason to think that an high performance engine can be designed to also be ecomomical.

Personally putting more time, money and effort into a car that that car is worth, doesn't make sense to me. Especially as theres nowhere in this country you can enjoy the performance unless its on a very rare track day. I hate to think what the insurance costs for those mods. You'd run a decent Porsche for the same money, that you could take cross euro for some decent driving. Alternatively you could go racing properly. Either would be much cooler IMO.

But hey if Max Power mods are your thing, then that fair enough. Each to their own. But the whole challenging people to race is a bit 2 Fast and Furious for me.

Jim-SR

max power mods? you really dont have a clue!!

when its finished my car is gonna be pushing around 160bhp with the potential to make almost 200bhp with a bigger cam, at the cost of driveability of course with nasty idle and further reduced fuel economy

considering i have 122bhp to begin with, thats a tad more than the average max power boy makes with an induction kit and a stainles exhaust!!

you clearly have no idea at all, if i could afford a porsche id have a GT2, i cant, so i drive an £800 MR2, spend a few grand on it, im capapble of doing most the work myself, and im left with a car making 100bhp/litre!

now name me a non-VVT/VTEC production car that makes 100bhp/litre out of the factory? i bet you cant name a single one! and if you can it will be a £25k+ sports/super car

i doubt you even know what quad throttle bodies are, youre one of these irritating ppl who thinks they know EVERYTHING about cars, yet they have never even dabbled in tuning them as theyd rather drive a std car that was nice to start with. you take your car to a dealership for repairs, and you always get the optional leather interior as an extra.

theres only so much you can know about a car without knowing how it can be made better. thats the reason Jeremy Clarkson talks so much crap, cos he has no idea about tuning cars, contrary to what ppl think! Tiff Needell however does know his stuff, hence why hes a better car presenter than Clarkson(even if Clarkson does have the better humour)

now please dont make me humiliate you any more, you lost this argument about 3 posts ago, so start a new thread about something you know, and remember not to spout **** about cars next time unless you understand how it works first!

JIM

ZENER

Jim, you're like a breath of fresh air around here. There's too many self appointed experts around here sometimes. Oh and by the way about your question of bhp/ltr production car - Mazda RX8 I think, I know it's a sports car but a mervel of technology though !!

Tinky

Jim-SR

its also got a rotary engine lol

RicardoSmith

Well you seem intend on shifting this from being a discussion about cars to a some sort of pissing contest, with you spouting off data left right and center, and randomly insults for some bizarre reason. Regardless if its on post or not. I'm happy you like the MR2, I had 16v T-Bar and a supercharger one in the past. Bit of pain to drop the tank out of them for some jobs. But otherwise a great handling car, better then most other cars. But then I'm a big fan of mid engined cars. Depsite your fertile imagination I'm not a fan of dealers myself, but then not everone has the time to be self indulgent and spend lots of their time and money on modifying a 10 year old, car. Each to their own. I note that in post you say your fuel economy suffered with the mods, but further back you say its the same as any VTEC you ever had. Your My own experience was that the Mr2 at stock was heavier on juice than the equivlent DOHC and DOHC VTEC I had. But then the CRX's I had were lighter, Since I deliberately picked ones that had few of the optional extras on them. The MR2 I prefered in every way except the leaky seals on the T-Bar roof, and the rush catcher rear arches. Everyone I've ever seen started to rust, whereas the CRX's and Civics don't if looked after. I'm also a big fan of tiff and can't stand clarkson. I have a collection of Tiffs best moments on Video, my fav being him test driving the 360 around the Ferrari test track. I don't have my top trumps handy here, but I'm sure I wouldn't be able to beat you listing stats on various cars. That just wouldn't float my boat. But if you think its a cool think to do then go for it. Be interesting to hear what you think about all VTEC's and modded up Toyotas, after you've bought something a bit bigger and better in a few years times. I wonder if you'll still have the sneering pompous attitude then. But who cares TBH.

kdevitt

The VEi and ETi were the only real versions to use VTEC purely for economy, the others were designed to squeeze as much power as possible from a relatively small displacement N/A engine..for instance - the D15B engine (1.5 SOHC) produces the same amount of power as the previous ZC engine (1.6 DOHC) the low/mid cam profile ensures the car is driveable under normal conditions, economy is more of a by-product - in much the same way as the Duel VANOS system on the BMW M5/M3 acts - all engines are designed to be as economical as possible my manufacturers, but the point is that power, not economy was their goal...

RicardoSmith

Why use a small capacity engine?

Jim-SR

to compete with toyota!

toyota designed the 4age engine for race purposes, it was a cheap alternative the the cosworth BDA engine, Honda created the b16 to proove that they could go one better than their arch rival

Jim-SR

then toyota created the 20v VVT 4age engine and honda didnt even try that, they just made the civic type-r lol

RicardoSmith

For those that are interested I found this site explains the workings of VTEC.

My point of view is...

"If high speed operation is all we have to worry about, Honda wouldn't need to implement VTEC. Indeed, race engines that operate mostly at high rpms do not utilize any mechanism like VTEC. But street cars used for daily driving spend most of
their time with the engine at low RPMs. Valves that open wide for high RPM operation contributes to rough operation and poor fuel economy at low RPMs. These undesirable traits are directly against Honda's design goals"

http://www.leecao.com/honda/index.html

He explains it better than I can.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by Jim-SR
to compete with toyota!

toyota designed the 4age engine for race purposes, it was a cheap alternative the the cosworth BDA engine, Honda created the b16 to proove that they could go one better than their arch rival

Do you have links to that, I'd be interested in reading about that.

Jim-SR

i dont know of any sites with the history in words, its just summin ppl in the motorsport industry at the time knew about.

of course honda and toyota never publically went to war, it was just a design-team thing, im not sure that they even had any rivalry on the track tbh, they were just opposing manufacturers, kinda like Ford and Vauxhall in this country.

i heard the whole tale 3rd hand from a friend whos dad is the former managing director of TOMS Toyota, so of course he was very much involved in the design of the cars at the time, so the info is pretty damn accurate.

its a pretty well know fact amongst toyota enthusiasts too, the honda lads dont tend to know about it as much, they are just happy to rub it in that their engines are better lol (of course im not admitting that they are ), not realising the reasons why their engine was originally made

RicardoSmith

The Toyota devopment of their engine is well known. But I've never heard that as a reason for the VTEC design though. However Honda has been targeting fuel efficiency in their designs since the 70's. They brag about it constantly.

http://www.hondacorporate.com/environ_tech/index.html?subsection=superior

Jim-SR

This new generation of Honda VTEC engines features a highly advanced valve timing and lift system along with a new clean-burn combustion system for reduced emissions, greater fuel efficiency and increased power.

notice that they couldnt write the last paragraph without mentioning the power tho, even in an article about economy!!

the fuel economy is a by product, and the 1.6 DOHC VTEC engines are only economical in comparison to other 1.6's producing similar power as std, if you compared the engine to a 1.0 Nissan Micra im sure it would beat it hands down!

the original VTEC engine is not a lot more (if at all) economical than my engine, if they had built it purely for economy then we would be looking at an engine that was more economical than any other engine at the time, as honda had the ability to do so, but they didnt

kdevitt

Small displacement engines in conjunction with VTEC technology were used in order to produce a lightweight yet powerful car.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by Jim-SR
notice that they couldnt write the last paragraph without mentioning the power tho, even in an article about economy!!

the fuel economy is a by product, and the 1.6 DOHC VTEC engines are only economical in comparison to other 1.6's producing similar power as std, if you compared the engine to a 1.0 Nissan Micra im sure it would beat it hands down!

the original VTEC engine is not a lot more (if at all) economical than my engine, if they had built it purely for economy then we would be looking at an engine that was more economical than any other engine at the time, as honda had the ability to do so, but they didnt

Actually when I had my CRX SiR we also had a Micra 993cc and a Fiesta 1.1. The CRX was more economcial then either. As was the DOHC non VTEC one I had before that. The Golf GTI 8v 1.8 I had before again that was really heavy on juice in comparision. Mind you it had the older injection system that wasn't as economical as the later ones.

The point is that VTEC is about power AND economy. Thats why theres two cam profiles. One for performance, one for economy. The fact that theres two means that they can optimised for both. Whereas for other engine designs that use a single profile both ecomomy and performance are compromised. It works well for smaller engines, but when absolute performance become the primary objective, you get better gains performance wise from upping the capacity.

Like I said at the start of this I was talking about the earlier 1.5 SOHC engine, I didn't realise there was later design which has been further developed. I guess VTEC has two primary objectives, performance and economy. The only engine thats designed with performance as its primary objective would be one thats on a hillclimbing car or a dragster. I still like to see some detailed history on how VTEC concept was originally concieved and why Honda picked up on it.

Jim-SR

no no no youre thinking about this all wrong...

the smaller camshaft isnt there for economy!!! its there to give good low-end torque more than anything, hence why the VTEC engines are still pretty good at low end, 160bhp at top end would mean non existent power below 4500rpm!

the economy is a by-product, of course a smaller duration camshaft with less lift will improve economy!

they probably had that thought at the backs of their minds, they didnt just suddenly discover after they built the engine that it was amazingly economical at low end, but they didnt put the smaller camshaft in for that purpose

also theres the fact that a 160bhp 1.6 engine simply will not idle below 1200-1500rpm lol, so they needed a smaller camshaft to make the car road-useable, your average middle aged man doesnt want a race car, nor does your grandma, or your 25 year old insurance broker! they didnt make the car purely for the enthusiasts, it was built for the average consumer, but with performance to (almost) match that of a race car

Gmodified

Jim
Well if I can describe you using one word from auto terminology, it would be

dipstick,


High output Vtec engine is also highly efficient

Do you know what efficiency means ?

the economy is a by-product

There is millions of people that are able to pump out more power from most of the engines but there is only few of them can do this efficiently and sell it to the millions.

Do not forget about Vtec-e and i- vtec which was born from the original idea and your by product

Jim-SR

the VTEC-e and all the other versions were built solely for economy, which proves my point....

if Honda set out to make a perfectly economical engine, then it would be just like the VTEC-e, but it WASNT!! the reason? because economy wasnt their aim

seriously, stop reading stuff on the internet and get out and talk to ppl in the industry, theres a million VTEC owners with a website, who copy exactly what the last site they read says

this is why ppl think induction kits work, and that nitrous breaks engines, they watch fast and furious and call themself a racing driver, they know ****!

write a letter to the head honda engineer when the engine was built, and ask him what his aims were, he will say "driveable performance", if youre lucky he might even let on about the war with toyota, when youve got a reply come back

JIM

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by Jim-SR
.....they probably had that thought at the backs of their minds, they didnt just suddenly discover after they built the engine that it was amazingly economical at low end, but they didnt put the smaller camshaft in for that purpose....

Do you have any links to material that backs that up. Because Honda's development of engines for road use has always had fuel efficency as an objective.