Smoking ban to start on March 29

bonkey

Originally posted by irish1
How many guys in their late 60's loose thier licence because of bad eyesight compared to how many guys in their late 60's that smoke in pubs??

You should only be comparing the numbers to the number of late-60-year-old smoking pub-drinkers who will refuse to obey the law, even after the publican of their local informs them that their continuation to do so may put him out of business. Thats a pretty unquantified number right now, so I wouldn't get too carried away with righteousness that my example doesn't cover enough people to be a valid comparison.

Regardless, its still a valid comparison. Aged people who have been driving for decades do lose their licenses.

Many of them want to continue to drive. Your logic says that its impossible to stop them because we're asking them to stop doing something they have done all their lives.

I don't accept that it is impossible to stop them, nor that it is not at the very least worth trying.

jc

Originally posted by irish1

It will take time and proper policing to stop

I'll butt in pardon the pun with some reassurance for you at this pint, pardon the other pun...

My nearest town has 17 pubs, it according to one of the publicans I've been talking to off the record is getting two inspectors.
One of these is the local parking warden and a vicious one at that!!
I was told that the publicans there have no doubt that, the smoking ban is going to be inforced rigidly in that town although one of the inspectors is doing the hinterland aswell as the town itself.

Put that together with the masses of people who don't smoke objecting in the manner most say they will in this thread and you have a very rigid enforcement regime.

Having said that, I honestly do not know how,smokers are going to cope with such a sea change.
All of them enjoy their smoke and it's going to be very,very difficult for them.

Villain

Originally posted by bonkey

I don't accept that it is impossible to stop them, nor that it is not at the very least worth trying.

jc

I'm not saying it's impossible bonkey, I'm saying it's going to be very hard giving the method of policing that is going to used.

I want this ban more than anyone, I worked in a pub for 8 years and came hiome everynight stinking of smoke. But I know that if it's not properly enforced people will simply disregard it. I was in a local pub lately and there was 6 men all in there 60's to 70's who were smoking, who's going to tell all them to stop if there the only ones in the pub.

Earthman, I think your Publican has been misinformed, this is going to be policed by the Healthboard, not anyone else!

koneko

It'll be hard at first for the smokers, there will be a transition period but I think in the long run this benefits us all.
I'm looking forward to it myself. I don't like being in the pub at the moment with all the smoke and all that. My poor wikkle sensitive eyes (lenses!) don't take well to it at all. It'll be hard at first though for all the smokers, I'll give you that.

Originally posted by irish1

Earthman, I think your Publican has been misinformed, this is going to be policed by the Healthboard, not anyone else!

errr no, the traffic warden applied for the job from the health board and is keeping the traffic warden job aswell.
Walks up and down the street like a storm trooper too and undoubtedly will write out infringment orders as fast as those dreaded parking tickets.
It sounds like an enforcement winner to me.

seamus

Originally posted by irish1
Earthman, I think your Publican has been misinformed, this is going to be policed by the Healthboard, not anyone else!

It's law. Although the health board will have inspectors, Gardai who find people smoking on the premises have their usual powers under law.

bonkey

Originally posted by irish1
I'm not saying it's impossible bonkey, I'm saying it's going to be very hard giving the method of policing that is going to used.

Ah. I mistook me then. Apologies.

Earthman, I think your Publican has been misinformed, this is going to be policed by the Healthboard, not anyone else!

As a matter of interest, have the healthboard clarified how they will police? I would assume they will have to hire people, which wouldn't rule out the possibility of someone like a traffic warden choosing to "double-job".

I know if I was a Health Board bod i charge of finding recruits for this, I'd snap up the chance to get someone who's used to being hard-nosed (like a warden) if they applied.

jc

Jaden

As for publicans being up in arms about this-

SOD THEM.

A law has been introduced, and it is up to them to ensure compliance on their business premeses. If they continue to moan about it, I suggest that opening hours be rigidly enforced, and that publicans be prosecuted for selling alchol to someone who will drive home over the legal limit.

A week of that, and they'll shut up. Publicans (and rightly so) only ever worry about profit. Hit them there, and they'll toe the line.

Villain

Originally posted by Jaden

A week of that, and they'll shut up. Publicans (and rightly so) only ever worry about profit. Hit them there, and they'll toe the line.

I think thats the reason there worreid Jaden, they feel there profits will drop due to the ban.

The increase in the price of drink over the last few years along with stricter drink driving laws, has lead to a decrease in pub sales and increase on off licence sales, this is just another problem that will incourage people to drink at home.

It's their livelyhoods and I think they have a right to defend it.

Ste.phen

Originally posted by Jaden
A law has been introduced, and it is up to them to ensure compliance on their business premeses. If they continue to moan about it, I suggest that opening hours be rigidly enforced, and that publicans be prosecuted for selling alchol to someone who will drive home over the legal limit.

A week of that, and they'll shut up. Publicans (and rightly so) only ever worry about profit. Hit them there, and they'll toe the line. [/B]

Well put

Going off the topic a little, one of the columnists in the sunday indo a few weeks back suggested that confiscating and selling cars of those caught drink driving, without insurance, etc. would stamp out the problem in about a week.
Perhaps the same should apply to pubs? :P

("what, you're letting them smoke, eh? oh well, clear out anything you want to keep, if you want the pub back its up for auction on thursday")

seamus

Originally posted by irish1
The increase in the price of drink over the last few years along with stricter drink driving laws, has lead to a decrease in pub sales and increase on off licence sales, this is just another problem that will incourage people to drink at home.

It's their livelyhoods and I think they have a right to defend it.

They're the ones guilty for the increase in drink prices. If pubs lowered their stout and lager prices by 50c, they'd see a huge surge in people returning to the pubs, and their profits would probably increase beyond what they are now with the higher prices. The only ones to blame for the surge in drink prices are the publicans themselves.

IgnatiusJRiley

Publicans profits will drop for the first few months of the ban as some people will be in a huff and will expect that if the pubs lose money then Mickey Martin will have to allow smoking again. But if Mickey holds firm then they'll all come running back eventually cause the Irish have to socialise in a drinking environment.

Villain

Originally posted by seamus
They're the ones guilty for the increase in drink prices. If pubs lowered their stout and lager prices by 50c, they'd see a huge surge in people returning to the pubs, and their profits would probably increase beyond what they are now with the higher prices. The only ones to blame for the surge in drink prices are the publicans themselves.

Theres a lot of reasons why the drink is so dear, thats a very generalised comment you made, the cost of all the services have risen sharply, Insurance alone is huge, the suppliers had increased the drink a lot.

I'm not going to try and defend the prices being charged in Major Citys their way over the top, but in my local town you can get a Ping of the black stuff for €3

bonkey

Originally posted by irish1
It's their livelyhoods and I think they have a right to defend it.

Sure they do.

But if, as the minister says, the majority of people in the country support the new law, its hard to say that the publicans are in the right in the manner in which they are seeking to defend their livelihood.

It was only a few years ago that there was a huge furore over the publicans increasing the price of drink apparently as they saw fit. Words like "cartel" were bandied about a fair bit. To turn around and then use the increasing price of drink as a reason for dropping profits and a concern for their business is something I find somewhat ironic.

Its hard to have sympathy for the businessman who screwed you when he could, and who is now complaining that his profits are getting tight and is looking for "fair" treatment...

Now, I am aware that the publicans always denied running a cartel, and argued that every single price raise was somehow justified....but the publics perception was something else entirely, and the publicans did not - in my recollection - acquit themselves well in the public eye.

They have a right to protect their industry, but if they don't have the support of their customers when asking for the protection....

jc

hallelujajordan

Originally posted by irish1

It's their livelyhoods and I think they have a right to defend it.

Surely its right that the health and economic impact of a ban on smoking in pubs etc . . should take precedence over anyones right to defend their income !!

And as for the notion that pub takings will drop as a result of this, I don't buy that at all . . I for one will be more likely to go to pubs once the ban is in place !

Villain

Oh agreed Bonkey, but I don't think there the only ones who can be blamed for the price hikes, the suppliers have increased there prices alot in the last 2 years, but they don't get the flack, because it's the publican who is seen to charge the extra.

If anyone has a Cartel it's Guinness, they supply over 70% of products in most pubs.

Think about the taps in your local pub, Smitwicks, Guinness, Bud, Carlsberg, Smirnoff ICE along with others are all brewed by Guinness.

I don't think €3 is ott for a pint

Villain

Originally posted by hallelujajordan
Surely its right that the health and economic impact of a ban on smoking in pubs etc . . should take precedence over anyones right to defend their income !!

And as for the notion that pub takings will drop as a result of this, I don't buy that at all . . I for one will be more likely to go to pubs once the ban is in place !

I didn't say they should do it, I just said it's their right.

Originally posted by irish1

It's their livelyhoods and I think they have a right to defend it.

My heart isn't exactly bleeding.
I don't know of a publican in my town that isn't driving a mercedes or equivalent on the back of the phenominal growth in drink sales over the last five to ten years.

And ALL of them have off-licences.
I'm doubting, that there will be much of a fall off in business, and certainly that if there is, it will be an insignificant fraction of the growth in that business over the last number of years.

Villain

Originally posted by Earthman
My heart isn't exactly bleeding.
I don't know of a publican in my town that isn't driving a mercedes or equivalent on the back of the phenominal growth in drink sales over the last five to ten years.

And ALL of them have off-licences.
I'm doubting, that there will be much of a fall off in business, and certainly that if there is, it will be an insignificant fraction of the growth in that business over the last number of years.

Granted but thats your town and Off licence Profits average about 10% and thats net

monument

Originally posted by purplemonkey
Can anyone explain to me how the gardai are going to enforce the ban on 70 yr. old fellas who have been smoking and drinking in their local pub down the back arse of the country for most of their lives?

So should a Garda (or who ever) enforce the new speed limits coming in shortly any differently wherever it’s a 70 year old or a 18 year old?…

“sorry officer I’m just use to the old speed limits”

Originally posted by irish1
Secondly you can't just select a date and expect someone to change something they have been doing for their whole life.

You can't expect them to stop smoking just like that, but you can expect them to stop doing it in a pub.

Originally posted by irish1
Granted but thats your town and Off licence Profits average about 10% and thats net

Are you saying that my town is an exception and that there hasn't been a phenominal growth in pub income over the last few years?

10% margin sounds good to me, considering in most cases it's a rent free room at the side of the pub,with a doorbell and staffed by the bar staff ie not much in the way of overheads

Villain

Originally posted by monument
So should a Garda (or who ever) enforce the new speed limits coming in shortly any differently wherever it’s a 70 year old or a 18 year old?…

“sorry officer I’m just use to the old speed limits”

.

Can people please stop making stupid comparisons, it's wrecking my.

Monument, how many 70 years do you know that break speed limts more than 3 times a week?

How many 70 year olds do you that go to a pub more 3 times a week.

God give me patience.;)

Villain

Originally posted by Earthman
Are you saying that my town is an exception and that there hasn't been a phenominal growth in pub income over the last few years?

10% margin sounds good to me, considering in most cases it's a rent free room at the side of the pub,with a doorbell and staffed by the bar staff ie not much in the way of overheads

No I meant about all the publicans driving merc etc.

10& net is about as low as any business would go

bdiddy

I have worked in pubs pretty much all my life( my father is one of those b**stards who keeps us all in drink and provides us with a warm social setting) and i think the ban is enforcable and a great idea. I used to smoke(gave up at new years) and now I really appricate the lack of smoke in some pubs. I even thought it was a good idea when i was smoking cos i used to smoke an awful amount when i was drunk. I just hope it doesnt keep people out of pubs and it doesnt affect the athmosphere in smaller country pubs like the one at home

Originally posted by irish1
No I meant about all the publicans driving merc etc.

So you are not denying that they are doing and have done very well, you see thats where, they won't get many bleeding hearts, because they will continue to do well.
A complete doomsday scenario like a massive down-turn in the business of the pubs as a result of the ban is a laughable notion to be honest.

10& net is about as low as any business would go

Competition is great isn't it
And believe you me with the overheads as tiny as they are, in the off licence trade of pubs ( as opposed to independent off licences ) the publicans wouldn't open them if they weren't reasonably profitable.

Villain

Originally posted by Earthman

A complete doomsday scenario like a massive down-turn in the business of the pubs as a result of the ban is a laughable notion to be honest.

Well its your notion, not mine.

Originally posted by Earthman

Competition is great isn't it
And believe you me with the overheads as tiny as they are, in the off licence trade of pubs ( as opposed to independent off licences ) the publicans wouldn't open them if they weren't reasonably profitable.

It certainly is but if pub sales continue to fall the off licence prices will rise.

Anyway lets get back on topic here.

I whole heartly hope that this time next year there will never be a fag lit in pubs again.

But I don't think its going to happen overnight and I think theres going to be a lot of problems enforceing it the way it's been policed.

bonkey

Originally posted by irish1
I don't think €3 is ott for a pint

Hey, where I live, a pint of Guinness will set you back the equivalent of €5.50, so I tend to find even Dublin prices to be reasonable now

jc

Villain

Originally posted by Earthman
errr no, the traffic warden applied for the job from the health board and is keeping the traffic warden job aswell.
Walks up and down the street like a storm trooper too and undoubtedly will write out infringment orders as fast as those dreaded parking tickets.
It sounds like an enforcement winner to me.

"Enforcement of the ban will be carried out by 40 environmental health officers, assisted by 300 officers involved in food safety and 100 personnel from the Health and Safety Authority"

Source Irish Examiner

Think your Traffic warden is telling fibs

Originally posted by irish1
"Enforcement of the ban will be carried out by 40 environmental health officers, assisted by 300 officers involved in food safety and 100 personnel from the Health and Safety Authority"

Source Irish Examiner

Think your Traffic warden is telling fibs

err no, short of posting names and addresses, I know for a fact what is going on.
My Traffic warden, is in for the job here.
No need to get upset, I'm convinced she will do a good job

Villain

Originally posted by Earthman
err no, short of posting names and addresses, I know for a fact what is going on.
My Traffic warden, is in for the job here.
No need to get upset, I'm convinced she will do a good job

So which group is she part of

40 environmental health officers,
300 officers involved in food safety
100 personnel from the Health and Safety Authority