Smoking ban to start on March 29

chill

Originally posted by Earthman
On what do you base that assertion-have you a crystal ball?

The law provides for substantial fines for the publicans upon infringement.

On the contrary. Almost all of the fines will be publicans, and license warnings too.
The police and law enforcement know that that's the route to compliance.
Individual fines will do little use. smokers would know the risk of being caught are almost nil. No inspectors, no cameras etc.
It's the pubs that will be punished - after reports and witnesses from the public ourselves.

monument

Originally posted by irish1
No it's not!. The law inforcers of this country are the Gardai.

Why should someone who's working on low wages to get by have to enforce the law?? They should report the people to the authorities which in this case is the health board, but it's not there job to enforce it

They don’t have to enforce it like a Garda enforce laws, but like underage drinking etc, pubs owners or managers have a responsible for what happens on their premises. This could include calling the Gardai.

===========

Re: “rights”

One may have the right to smoke and pollute their lunges, but one should not have the right to pollute another persons lunges.

BuffyBot

Every pub will be filled with people that will report ANY smoking !

Now there is a generalisation if I ever saw one.

Villain

Originally posted by chill
Oh yes they can. It is private property and they are the agents of the owners.

Thay can't force use phyiscal force,as that would leave them open to personal injury or law suits.

Originally posted by chill

On the contrary. Almost all of the fines will be publicans, and license warnings too.
The police and law enforcement know that that's the route to compliance.
Individual fines will do little use. smokers would know the risk of being caught are almost nil. No inspectors, no cameras etc.
It's the pubs that will be punished - after reports and witnesses from the public ourselves.

I don't think so chill, they will have to prove that the publican didn't make all reasonable effort to stop it.

I also believe the publicans won't be the ones hit most, that would cause a revolt among all publicans and thats not something the minister wants. You entitled to your opinion chill but I firmly believe the publicans will get very few fines and I'd put money on that.

monument

Originally posted by irish1
I don't think so chill, they will have to prove that the publican didn't make all reasonable effort to stop it.

As I said above - this could include calling the Gardai.

Rock Climber

Originally posted by irish1
Good luck with that.

Just to point out btw I don't think you will see too many publicans being fined, it mostly be the offenders!

Rest assured I and many of my non smoking friends will be prepared to stand up in court to testify if a publican is deliberately flouting the anti smoking law and putting my lungs in jepordy.
So there is no escape.
We will of course also move our business to the publican who impliments the law in that case.

So you can put your crocodile fears about the lack of implimentation of this law to bed

Villain

Originally posted by Rock Climber
Rest assured I and many of my non smoking friends will be prepared to stand up in court to testify if a publican is deliberately flouting the anti smoking law and putting my lungs in jepordy.
So there is no escape.
We will of course also move our business to the publican who impliments the law in that case.

So you can put your crocodile fears about the lack of implimentation of this law to bed

Thats 1 town, now all you have to do is get eveyone else to follow you and we'l be fine:)

Rock Climber

I don't have to find them they are already there.

The it's only in your town logic doesn't apply.

BuffyBot

Originally posted by Rock Climber
Rest assured I and many of my non smoking friends will be prepared to stand up in court to testify if a publican is deliberately flouting the anti smoking law and putting my lungs in jepordy.
So there is no escape.
We will of course also move our business to the publican who impliments the law in that case.

So you can put your crocodile fears about the lack of implimentation of this law to bed

Mmm, yes, because so many people stand up and protest about smoking on buses etc. It's a really well enforced law.

I suspect people will be more likely to sit there and grumble than walk out in righteous indignation

Originally posted by BuffyBot
Mmm, yes, because so many people stand up and protest about smoking on buses etc. It's a really well enforced law...

Ah but Buffy, upstairs on a moving bus where theres no escape and a building that is not moving are two entirely different places to be making your protest regarding compliance with smoking legislation.

It's much, much easier to bar a patron from a pub if he gets rowdy with you than it is to bar someone from getting on a bus.
Theres no comparison.

Cork

If a publican allows smoking in their premises - they will be acting aganist the law.

The have a licence to serve drink and comply with the law.

But this is a pro health measure. We are the first in the EU to introduce such as ban.

It is nice that, as a country - we are being progressive.

Smoking does indeed cause cancer. Passive Smoking is indeed harmful.

Why should customers and staff in pubs be subjected to filthy ciggerette smoke?

This measure - should have been introduced years ago.

Villain

Originally posted by Cork
This measure - should have been introduced years ago.

With proper policing to ensure it worked.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

BuffyBot

It's much, much easier to bar a patron from a pub if he gets rowdy with you than it is to bar someone from getting on a bus.
Theres no comparison.

Perhaps, but the point I wanted to make is that no-one has made a real effort to stop these people smoking. The problem with the pub smoking ban I can see is lack of will to implement it, and chase up violations of it. I have very little faith in the "legions" of inspectors who are supposed to be enforcing this.

The nature of the general public isn't to stand up to someone in public. Most people will sit there and moan about it, within their own groups for fear of triggering a "scene" or move elsewhere. Before anyone starts, I'm not saying that's right, however I am saying it's a very likely scenario.

Originally posted by BuffyBot
Perhaps, but the point I wanted to make is that no-one has made a real effort to stop these people smoking.

Well, I've said the Bus is an awkward situation, indeed a potential injury zone with no escape late at night on some routes in Dublin.
A pub is a different kettle of fish.
Discipline in most cases is definitely maintained, or you are thrown out.
I have yet to see a publican that doesn't have control over what is and what isn't done in his or her pub.


As regards having little faith in the inspectors, it's their job, what do you actually expect them to be doing?
personally I'd wait and see before pre-judging their performance.

BuffyBot

As regards having little faith in the inspectors, it's their job, what do you actually expect them to be doing?

Well, the record of such "enforcement" in this country is hardly sparkling

Cork

I think that theban will be policed. Smoking is already anti social. When Irish people go out for a drink after March 29th - they will demand a smoke free environment.

I know the Irish public and they are just as demanding as Americans.

We don't have a whistle blowing culture in this country - but give irrate pub customers a freephone number - & they will report any violations of the law.

Publicans value their licences - These licences trade for big money & I don't think publicans will violate the law for the sake of smokers.

BuffyBot

I think that theban will be policed. Smoking is already anti social. When Irish people go out for a drink after March 29th - they will demand a smoke free environment.

I think you have a rose tinted view of the "Irish people" as a unit. You forget that portions of the "Irish people" are smokers/apathetic/unwilling to "cause trouble" and various other things. That weakens the imagine of the "Irish people" demanding a smoke free environment. Quite a number of people will, but I just don't feel that the whole nation is suddenly going to change after the 29th, which some people see as the date things just "switch". The day the laws against drink driving were brought in, did people stop? Did they hell.

I know the Irish public and they are just as demanding as Americans.

Oh no, not in the least.

This law isn't a overnight fix-it folks, and it'll be a while before we see smoking stamped out across the pubs on the land.

chill

Originally posted by BuffyBot
Now there is a generalisation if I ever saw one.

No. I didn't say that all of the people in the pubs will report. Just that pubs will be full of people who will. A lsight exageration but I believe there will be plenty in each pub willing to complain the next day to the gardai if not at the time.

chill

Originally posted by BuffyBot
I suspect people will be more likely to sit there and grumble than walk out in righteous indignation [/B]

Yes - but you are missing an essential difference.

Busses do not have licenses to lose. I may not feel like the hassle of making a fuss at the time in a pub, but I can tell you now that if it happens I will be on to the gardai the next morning making a bloody big fuss and an official statement.
Let's see how that will compare with smoking on the busses.

The spin put in this issue by the publicans is a nonsense. Their asses are going to get burned if they don't do their jobs and the minister won't give a monkeys. It's the people that vote and this is a huge vote winner, not just among non smokers but among smokers too.

chill

Originally posted by BuffyBot
This law isn't a overnight fix-it folks, and it'll be a while before we see smoking stamped out across the pubs on the land. [/B]

Who cares ! I couldn't give a monkeys about stamping it out. If we get 80% or 90% I'll be bloody thrilled ! A fw licenses lost will drag in the remainder.

Linoge

Originally posted by BuffyBot

If it's a purely self-interest debate here, it becomes stalemate.

If there is external factors, as there are in this debate, fine. Don't bandy your health around as an individual concern, because it has you have no greater right to health than anyone else. Everyone has equal right to heath, and likewise equal right to damage it should they choose to


There is no right to smoke. But everyone has a right of self-determination to a certain extent, and no ones "rights" are above anyone elses. Laws may prohibit smoking in certain places, but it can't ban the right to smoke, should one choose to smoke.

Its exactly this kind of weak arguement that I was talking about. You say you have the right to damage your own health?Thats fine but your also damaging my health in the process. Furthermore, my right to health is only equal to your right to damage your health?? Do you realise what you are saying here?
You make it sound like one smoker affects one non-smoker in a pub. That smoker affects everyone in the vacinity, the majority. One persons right has now suddenly outweighed the majority in the pub.

Before I get backlashes about how most people who go to the pub are smokers here are some statistics taken from the Irish Independent recently for you to swallow.
3 in 10 people smoke.
63% of non-smokers regularly visit pubs.
73% of smokers regularly visit pubs.
That means that at any one time there are over twice as many non-smokers as smokers in a pub.
Tell me something BuffyBot. Do you pay twice as much tax as me and get to vote twice aswell?

monument

Originally posted by BuffyBot
This law isn't a overnight fix-it folks, and it'll be a while before we see smoking stamped out across the pubs on the land.

Yes, I was thinking that was obvious; however that’s not to say most pubs won’t be smoke-free within the first week.

I think some have a view of the health inspectors walking into pubs like storm troopers – this won’t be happening, well at least until after they have tried to help any pub in question to stop any problems with smoking.

BuffyBot

Tell me something BuffyBot. Do you pay twice as much tax as me and get to vote twice aswell?

Not in the least.

The point I'm was trying to make is there is a lot of hogwash and sanctimony being bandied around this debate, but it seems that wasn't clear to some folks. Perhaps I need to buy a stronger brand of sarcasm.

Personally, it doesn't really affect me. I a) no longer live in Ireland, b) don't go to pubs much anyway and c) don't really mind people smoking (except pipes, I never did get that).

Linoge

Originally posted by BuffyBot

Personally, it doesn't really affect me. I a) no longer live in Ireland, b) don't go to pubs much anyway and c) don't really mind people smoking (except pipes, I never did get that).

Surely this means you have no fixed opinion on this subject then. Why are you posting here then?

As for the "hogwash and sanctimony ", we do not need an arbitrator in this forum thanks, even though some of the anti-ban arguments would fall in to this category.

Oh, and please, please, please buy stronger sarcasm. Your earlier stuff was just a piece of piss.

BuffyBot

Surely this means you have no fixed opinion on this subject then. Why are you posting here then?

I'm entitled to challenge other on theirs though. And it doesn't mean I don't have an opinion, just that a lot of this is irrelevant to me.

As for the "hogwash and sanctimony ", we do not need an arbitrator in this forum thanks, even though some of the anti-ban arguments would fall in to this category.

I was "arbitrating". Merely giving my opinion on some of the arguments being raised and utilised. Again, given the nature of a discussion board I think it's a valid use.

Oh, and please, please, please buy stronger sarcasm. Your earlier stuff was just a piece of piss.

Well, likey beauty, sarcasm is in the eye of the beholder.

mneylon

Originally posted by Cork
they will demand a smoke free environment.

Huh?
That a certain portion of the Irish public may "demand" a smoke free environment is one thing, but to think that "we the people" will "demand" it is another.

bonkey

Originally posted by Linoge
Surely this means you have no fixed opinion on this subject then.

You can have an opinion on a subject which doesn't affect you.....or are you trying to tell me that I also don't have an opinion - or a right to one - on this subject either, given that I don't live in Ireland any more either, rarely go out in pubs when I go back there, and wouldn't have a huge objection if smoking was still allowed when I did (given that I'm partial to a smoke with my beer).

jc

Linoge

Originally posted by bonkey
You can have an opinion on a subject which doesn't affect you.....or are you trying to tell me that I also don't have an opinion - or a right to one - on this subject either, given that I don't live in Ireland any more either, rarely go out in pubs when I go back there, and wouldn't have a huge objection if smoking was still allowed when I did (given that I'm partial to a smoke with my beer).

jc

I wasn't talking about entitlements to opinion btw, just that people like yourself are far less likely to be strongly opinionated on this subject. And it is for that reason that I have a problem with certain peoples cynisism.
Anyway, back to the point. F*** people who oppose the ban:mad:

mneylon

Originally posted by Linoge
F*** people who oppose the ban:mad:

Ahhh .. Democracy Irish style. Agreeing with me and be democratic, but disagree and we can always resort to childish insults...