UCD - What a nice place to be gay

Annasopra

http://usilgb.netsoc.tcd.ie/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&file=viewthread&tid=229#pid1073

Atreides

I find the posters for the cock society in trinity(o yea it does exist) far more offensive.

BuffyBot

"I do not appreciate you putting junk in my college mailbox. It is one thing to be a deviant. It is another to go around attempting to convince people that it is OK."

Ah, I'm sure the nurse will bring his hot milk and little pink pills soon

uberwolf

there were huge complaints about sexually suggestive posters in UCD earlier in the year. People didn't want hetrosexuality thrown in their faces. It oughn't be advertised overtly regardless of persuasion. Some people have gone overboard in response, but Islam holds the same everywhere - not just UCD. Staff members have every right not to advertise comfort things they may not be comfortable with and so long as no one has had complaint before (about a partic member of staff) then the proactive stance is unnessacary and obtrusive.

The email campaign seems to have demanded compliance which is unlikely to meet with success. Some peoples way of dealing with the issue is to pretend it doesn't exist. Perhaps reminding them isn't the best idea... if they are able to carry out their jobs without cause for complaint then why get in their face? And if there is cause for complaint about an individual there are ways to deal with it.

IMO

seamus

I think people just need to chill the fluck out.

If it's offensive, ignore it.

However I do have a problem with two things:- Posting flyers in mailboxes. People are entitled to their opinion, no matter how ignorant it may seem, and getting flyers in their mailboxes is equivalent to them posting anti-gay literature in the mailboxes.
Secondly, there's the "Gay firendly zone" stickers. For a start, they're pointless. Unless a student has openly told a lecturer that they're gay, then why would they assume they'd be treated any differently. It's also another form of self-discrimination that the gay community are guilty of. They tend to encourage gay segregation where it benefits them, and discourage it where it doesn't benefit them.
The stickers basically insinuate that gay students are worthy of special attention, and that lecturers who disaply them are willing to display that special attention, instead of treating all students equally, whether they be male, female, gay, hetero, Irish, English, Jewish, Islam. If the put up "gay-friendly" stickers, why shouldn't they put up stickers indicating their willingness to teach all other minority groups?

yellum

I kind of agree with Seamus here. I mean those stickers might as well say "I'm down with the fags" and there can be a sly implication that if you don't put up a sticker then you are a homophobe.

Gay people are meant to be looking for equality, this is not the same thing as having stickers up highlighting one aspect of someones identity.

If someone posted crap to my mailbox I'd be abusive too, you invade their personal space then expect to get abuse, and since it is their personal space be prepared to listen to their personal opinion.

uberwolf

I thought I was going to be slated for saying that, or at least get some response. Fair enuff, I think Seamus expressed somethings I didn't and Yellum as well. Wasn't sure if I was being unreasonable, apparently not...:)

Suzybie

These sticker campaigns have worked very well internationally. I also think the need for the sticker campaigns has been very well demonstrated by the reactions of the lecturers who objected.

In particular there is an insinuation that being lesbian gay or bisexual is solely about sexual expression - this is the ususal rubbish that is thrown at us in the form of homophobia. Same sex attraction and identity beings with it a myriad of issues that extend far beyond who you shag....

As a teaching assistant at 3rd level I more than realise that there is a need to let students know that they are in a safe zone - particularly if you are in a pastoral tutoring role. I challenege homophobia in my classes, and encourage my students to question where predujice comes from, I treat all students equally but also let lgbt students know that they should hold their heads up high and that I support them. This is not the case with all staff in my institution. While out in UCD last weekend I saw the remains of the posters torn to the ground - this is not something new and happened 10 years or more ago at least. I was sad to see that the same old crap was happening.

Mental health issues in 3rd level are huge as are bullying, drop out rates, suicide etc...add coming out issues to that and there is a huge problem in 3rd level that can't be ignored and we have to inform others and challenge the myths that still exist about out lives.

The view we should hide ourselves and not put our identity in other peoples faces is just playing their game of keeping us down and for me demonstrates internalised homophobia which is just as much a problem as the external sort.

Suzy

Originally posted by seamus
I think people just need to chill the fluck out.

If it's offensive, ignore it.

However I do have a problem with two things:- Posting flyers in mailboxes. People are entitled to their opinion, no matter how ignorant it may seem, and getting flyers in their mailboxes is equivalent to them posting anti-gay literature in the mailboxes.
Secondly, there's the "Gay firendly zone" stickers. For a start, they're pointless. Unless a student has openly told a lecturer that they're gay, then why would they assume they'd be treated any differently. It's also another form of self-discrimination that the gay community are guilty of. They tend to encourage gay segregation where it benefits them, and discourage it where it doesn't benefit them.
The stickers basically insinuate that gay students are worthy of special attention, and that lecturers who disaply them are willing to display that special attention, instead of treating all students equally, whether they be male, female, gay, hetero, Irish, English, Jewish, Islam. If the put up "gay-friendly" stickers, why shouldn't they put up stickers indicating their willingness to teach all other minority groups?

seamus

I agree Suzybie, but the problem is that gay students shouldn't need to be let known that they're accepted. The exact same way as African or Islam students don't need to be told this. The difference there is that it's obvious when someone is African or Islam. But gay people don't go around with "I'm gay" written on their forehead. So if other ethnic groups don't need to be told by a lecturer "I'm happy to teach you", why should gay students, when in fact, lecturers don't even have a reason to assume they're gay?

LGB students should strive for equality, not for special attention. Yes, they should be happy with who they are, and the life they lead, but that means that the rest of the world should treat them the same, not as a gay student. There is a huge difference between being accepting of someone because they're different and being accepting of someone because they're human. The line becomes blurred too often IMO.

[Edit:
As a side-issue, I'd think the posters being torn down was probably just a symptom of usual drunken student mentality, as opposed to a malicious campaign against the posters.
Most hetero men, regardless of how accepting they are, aren't exactly overjoyed by the image of two men kissing (makes us think too much of what it would be like.....*shudder*), then when some get drunk they tear down the posters. Nothing malicious, just something a drunken mind considers funny.

moridin

Originally posted by yellum
I kind of agree with Seamus here. I mean those stickers might as well say "I'm down with the fags" and there can be a sly implication that if you don't put up a sticker then you are a homophobe.

Gay people are meant to be looking for equality, this is not the same thing as having stickers up highlighting one aspect of someones identity.

If someone posted crap to my mailbox I'd be abusive too, you invade their personal space then expect to get abuse, and since it is their personal space be prepared to listen to their personal opinion.

You're right as far as I'm concerned, I've never agreed with the attitude of thrusting your sexuality in other peoples faces, regardless of what sexuality you may be. As I said to a friend the other day, I like to think that while being gay is part of me, it doesn't define me

In a separate e-mail, another member of staff Mr. T.J. Byrnes stated "I do not appreciate you putting junk in my college mailbox. It is one thing to be a deviant. It is another to go around attempting to convince people that it is OK."

I disagree with putting stuff in peoples personal mailbox, but he doesn't help his cause with the deviant comment.

A lecturer that is afraid of putting up a sticker outside of his/her office that indicates it is a safe space for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual or Transgender (LGBT) students, for fear of students making unwanted sexual advances, not only lacks an understanding of human sexuality but of the nature of sexual attraction.

I don't see any need for stickers. It's just segregation and smacks of possible favoritism. When I was in college I never thought that my sexuality was an issue on my course, and if you have a probem of a personal nature then you're a hell of a lot better off going to a staff councellor than a lecturer about it.

The problem with Rainbow week and the like is getting the balance right - promote but don't preach.

yellum

Originally posted by Suzybie


The view we should hide ourselves and not put our identity in other peoples faces is just playing their game of keeping us down

The opposite of hiding yourself is not being in someones face. There is a major difference between identifying who you are and forcefully pushing your sexuality on people. I never realised it was us against them either. Some people might want to keep us down but they are in the minority nowadays, albeit a vocal one. People don't care much about these issues nowadays

These sticker campaigns seem to have an attitude of "you're either with us or your not", which should not be the case. Would you be happy if someone asked the gay community to put up stickers saying "straight people are welcome in my place"

and for me demonstrates internalised homophobia which is just as much a problem as the external sort.

This is such an over-used buzzword at the moment. Gay people do suffer from internalised homophobia, but gay people who diagree with the sticker campaign should not be labeled as being this.

Suzybie

This is just released this morning and might assist the discussion further.

Suzy


The Union of Students in Ireland (USI) today launches the preliminary findings of our research programme on attitudes towards lesbian, gay and bisexual (LGB) students. The quantitative part of this research is now complete, and was conducted in 15 colleges across the island of Ireland.

The survey offers a number of fascinating insights into the behaviour and attitudes of the general student population in Ireland towards sexuality.

USI Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual Rights Officer, Tadhg O'Brien said: "Though attitudes have changed towards LGB people in recent years, it is saddening to discover that homophobia is still rife in the education system. Half of all male students have had homophobic language directed at them, and a staggering three-quarters of gay and bisexual men have been subjected to verbal homophobic abuse. Though 79% of students indicated they would react positively to their best friend telling them that they are gay, surprisingly this trend is reversed when students were asked how they would respond to the discovery that one of their siblings was LGB with 6 out of 10 reacting negatively. 70% of students said they think society is homophobic. Clearly much work remains to be done to combat bigotry in society as a whole.

USI President, Will Priestley said: "Though one in ten students identify as lesbian, gay or bisexual, LGB issues are important for the wider population as well. Sexual health awareness in relation to same-sex relationships are not just an issue for LGB students. 18% of all students have had a sexual experience with a person of the same sex, half of whom identify as heterosexual. USI has been at the forefront of inclusive sexual health awareness campaigns. It's unacceptable that LGB issues are not addressed in the education system prior to third level. The fact that this is the first major investigation into the attitudes towards LGB people in Ireland clearly shows that more research needs to be done in the context of society as a whole. While LGB students continue to be the subject of bigotry on a daily basis, I can only hope that these statistics will prove to be a springboard to wider acceptance and understanding in colleges and beyond."

ronano

I rather not have any sexual suggestive posters from any corner to be honest.You can hardly blame the students that follow islam for the opinion.

ixoy

Originally posted by yellum
The opposite of hiding yourself is not being in someones face. There is a major difference between identifying who you are and forcefully pushing your sexuality on people. I never realised it was us against them either. Some people might want to keep us down but they are in the minority nowadays, albeit a vocal one. People don't care much about these issues nowadays

Precisely, they don't generally give a damn in my experience. That's been my experience when telling friends.

There is a definite "us against them" vibe off of some gay people. It's often from those whose whole revolves around being gay, who let every thing they do tell everyone they're gay. Who make sure they exclusively only have gay friends as well...

The general thrust of what should be done is integration. Using aggressive "in your face" campaigns is more off putting, more highlighting the differences and focusing on them. It'd be far more educational to take a more passive approach rather than this sometimes rabid one.

I'm gay, but I'm also a hell of a lot of other things.

Atreides

First off do none of you think your sexuality is nobody elses buisness but your own and your loved ones? Personally thats how I feel about mine, and thats how I generaly feel about others as well. Imagine your nervious about coming out, and all the LGB officers can tell you is here hang this banner around your neck and shout as loud as you can. Thirdly this whole gay friendly area, what the hell is that all about, I come from an area of dublin where a man was shot dead walkign through a park because they thought he might be gay,

Syth

At the start of the year the B&L Society (one of the biggies) had posters with Madonna and Britney kissing as an advertisment to join their society. They were A3 full colour posters, as opposed to the black and white A4 Rainbow week posters. No complaints were made about that. (or if they were the complaints weren't half as vocal). That point was made in the Editorial of the latest issue of The Observer.

While out in UCD last weekend I saw the remains of the posters torn to the ground

That happens all the time with lots of posters.

there were huge complaints about sexually suggestive posters in UCD earlier in the year

One of the arguments they used was that some women were offended by the posters, so they should not be used. But some people were offended by the Rainbow week posters as well, so you'd think the campaign that wanted to stop the sexually explicit posters, would try to stop the Rainbow week posters. Unlikely since (to the best of my knowledge) the person who started the campaign, the SU Women's officer is also the LGBSoc Auditor. Can't have it both ways.

swiss

To a certain extent, I agree with seamus and yellum. Gay people seem to have the uncanny ability to herd themselves into a neat little minority group, and sometimes like to stay that way, perhaps to make themselves seem to fight for some non-existant right of being more vocal/visible than other members of society. As ixoy, I might be gay, but I am a lot of other things. Well, okay, maybe not a whole lot of other things, but I'm sure there are a few other things that I do that are not gay, dammit! >_<

If someone handed me a sticker that encouraged a space as being 'gay friendly' or whatever, I don't think I would put that sticker up. Doing so would seem to imply that anywhere that doesn't have such a sticker is in fact a ground for homophobia and anti-gay sentiment. This is clearly ludicrous. Do gay people put up such stickers in their bedrooms? In gay bars/nightclubs? It's implicit.

For me, equality is exactly that, being on an equal footing with other groups. That includes other people not giving a damn about you or what you do. When did anyone demand special recognition for taxi-drivers, for teachers, for over 60's, for children?These are all arguably minority groups too. Demanding special recognition and attention is about as far from being equal as one can get. Hence I see a lot of this campaign as simply attention seeking.

That said however, there is a lot of merit in raising gay awareness and raising the general level of knowledge and information people have about gay culture. Doing so will, IMO help to foster a greater level of tolerance and acceptance that is ostensibly the goal of these poster/sticker campaigns. While such campaigns undoubtedly do fulfil such a goal, I feel that they are simply going a step too far.

Woden

Originally posted by Syth
At the start of the year the B&L Society (one of the biggies) had posters with Madonna and Britney kissing as an advertisment to join their society. They were A3 full colour posters, as opposed to the black and white A4 Rainbow week posters. No complaints were made about that. (or if they were the complaints weren't half as vocal). That point was made in the Editorial of the latest issue of The Observer.

that was the stockbrokers and secretaries night i think , the posters where replaced with ones of judge judy or something iirc. sex is used as a selling point on so many posters in ucd though that its not even funny, i don't think any of them really offend me though tbh.

data

boomdogman

Looks to me like a manufactured controversy. Go fight the battles that matter, not the ones that don't.

boomdogman

tho as to the Auditor of the Islamic society, i find that a disgusting orginisatioin promoting a vile, ignorant, violent, stupid, cruel and evil belief system which adovcates murder, mutilation and slavery. Of course because they call this twisted, perverted belief system a religion i'm supposed to think that this is ok. I don't.

seamus

Originally posted by boomdogman
tho as to the Auditor of the Islamic society, i find that a disgusting orginisatioin promoting a vile, ignorant, violent, stupid, cruel and evil belief system which adovcates murder, mutilation and slavery. Of course because they call this twisted, perverted belief system a religion i'm supposed to think that this is ok. I don't.

Let's not confuse a religion based on prayer and goodwill with the acts of a few brainwashed members of fringe lunatic groups shall we? Let's not forget that there have been far more atrocities in the name of Jesus.

BuffyBot

Of course because they call this twisted, perverted belief system a religion i'm supposed to think that this is ok. I don't.

What planet are you on exactly? As Seamus said, you are tarring the many, many devout and peaceful followers of Islam with the acts of a few, fringe people. In a thread about lack tolerance, this certainly take the biscuit.

uberwolf

further to the original post, this weeks UCD tribune reports that the LGB is seeking censures for those members of staff "over comments they made criticising the LGB ... sticker campaign"

further wisdom in the article quotes Tadhg o'Brien USI LGB chap.

"If they think that students....will develop a sudden incontrollable lust for a member of staff who indicates he is not bigoted...are in urgent need of some equality training"

no without insight into exactly what was said, it is worth bearing in mind that these staff's opinions were goaded out of them when they were approached regarding the entire thing. That no cause for complaint existed previously. Equality means getting treated the same as everyone else. This kind of action will leave LGB students being handled with kiddy gloves IMO, which isn't exactly equality. Persuing this matter only raises hackles and is misguided.

GuanYin

Originally posted by Suzybie
These sticker campaigns have worked very well internationally. I also think the need for the sticker campaigns has been very well demonstrated by the reactions of the lecturers who objected.

This makes me laugh. Two lecturers have been documented as objecting. One, was well out of order and more than anything else he's been shown up as a bigot nationally. I'm sure he's a credit to his family.

The second one says he's not entirely sure its a professional thing to have the sticker up. He prefers if race, religion, creed (and I assume sexuality) are left at the door when he's dealing with students. Why is this a bad thing? Why is he a homophobe for this? I saw the e-mail and I saw what was printed and talk about twisting things to their own advantage to cause a storm. I think the crowd who leaked the details on that second lecturer are a disgrace as the man had to publically defend himself against accusations of homophobia in the national press.

For shame

Originally posted by Suzybie
In particular there is an insinuation that being lesbian gay or bisexual is solely about sexual expression - this is the ususal rubbish that is thrown at us in the form of homophobia. Same sex attraction and identity beings with it a myriad of issues that extend far beyond who you shag....

Who gives a damn? This is about dealing with people professionally at 3rd level education. The issue was whether staff put these stickers on their door. Thats what this was all about. The LGB society seemed to take a stance that anyone who didnt comply were homophobes. Anyone who objected were teh devil. Some tolerance. This "you are with us or againts us" attitude is hardly the way to gain acceptance. In that respect I think the LGB UCD campaign did themselves more damage than good.

Originally posted by Suzybie
As a teaching assistant at 3rd level I more than realise that there is a need to let students know that they are in a safe zone

I think thats very unprofessional.
I think students should be treated professionally as students. This isn't school. If there are difficulties there are a number of avenues to go down. Lecturers aren't teachers. Of course everyone will listen to individual issues and have on on one meetings with students but why create a "safe zone" for one distinct group? Racism is just as rife in Ireland. Should there be "All races welcomed" stickers too? Why not just treat everyone equally?

Originally posted by Suzybie
Mental health issues in 3rd level are huge as are bullying, drop out rates, suicide etc...add coming out issues to that and there is a huge problem in 3rd level that can't be ignored and we have to inform others and challenge the myths that still exist about out lives.

Again, their are services and officers in place to deal with these issues and those at fault when they occur. Perhaps a better thing would be to raise awareness about these procedures? Its not a lecturers job or position to deal with any person or group at a personal level in these regards.

Originally posted by Suzybie
The view we should hide ourselves and not put our identity in other peoples faces is just playing their game of keeping us down and for me demonstrates internalised homophobia which is just as much a problem as the external sort.

No, the view is you shouldn't look for special treatment. Yellum and SEamus have made very good points on this matter (although they may not agree with mine, so I'm not associating myself with them). Awareness campaigns are a good thing, forcing yourself on people is not. Its hard to achieve acceptance and integration into a society, group or family when you single yourself out as special.

GuanYin

Originally posted by uberwolf

further wisdom in the article quotes Tadhg o'Brien USI LGB chap.

"If they think that students....will develop a sudden incontrollable lust for a member of staff who indicates he is not bigoted...are in urgent need of some equality training"

Thats not what Dr. Brayden said at all.

This is the most shameful display of media twisting and it a sick and grotesque way to try and get support for a campaign. I think those responsible are a disgrace.

ixoy

Originally posted by syke
Awareness campaigns are a good thing, forcing yourself on people is not. Its hard to achieve acceptance and integration into a society, group or family when you single yourself out as special.

I agree, as do many other gay men I know. I long for the day when I could go with a boyfriend to any old pub - not a segregated instance as currently - and not have anyone bat an eyelid because the difference won't mean anything to them.

As to the lecturer in question - I believe the Irish Times, in its Weekend supplement, was fair to him. They printed out pretty much what he said, and it seemed clear - from the article - that he merely objected to any particular group - ethnic/sexual/whatever - using heavy handed tactics. Which is fine. It was only the second bigoted lecturer who should ever have had to defend his views.

Atreides

Originally posted by boomdogman
tho as to the Auditor of the Islamic society, i find that a disgusting orginisatioin promoting a vile, ignorant, violent, stupid, cruel and evil belief system which adovcates murder, mutilation and slavery. Of course because they call this twisted, perverted belief system a religion i'm supposed to think that this is ok. I don't.

Thats one view on Islam, which is a shared view by many religions.

daveydub

I don't think it's right that people should be so cynical about the campaign's in Universities and Colleges. The coming out week in UCD is designed to create awareness among staff and students of all creeds and backgrounds, about the issues relating to LGBT students.

The sticker campaign promoting 'positive space' was only one part of awareness and was taken up well by a majoirty of the teaching staff. It was the ignorant few who chose to mouth off their disgust and in doing so the teaching staff concerned face disciplinary procedures for breaking the Universities code on Dignity and Respect.

What seems to have been missed out on here were the comments made by members of the Islamic Soc. What I cannot abide is when other minority groupings such as the UCD Islamic Soc. mouth off about how things go against there religion and beliefs! Do I really care? I let them live in my country and worship and practice whatever they wish, wherever they wish as long as it does not harm anyone else or break the law. And yet their Auditor went around urging people not to vote for a Homosexual candidate in our Sabbatical elections?? You can be damn sure I wouldn't be allowed to go around telling people not to vote for Blacks or muslims.. I'd be told off for being racist. I feel that if the Auditor of the Islamic Soc. and his fellow members, have issues with living in a liberal, western democracy then perhaps he may be more suited to living in a State that embodies some of the regressive teachings of Islam.

There is no place for cynicism in equality, the LGB students were trying to promote awareness and equality and what was mostly a positive campaign was slightly sidelined by a few bigots.

Atreides

Originally posted by daveydub
I don't think it's right that people should be so cynical about the campaign's in Universities and Colleges. The coming out week in UCD is designed to create awareness among staff and students of all creeds and backgrounds, about the issues relating to LGBT students.

The sticker campaign promoting 'positive space' was only one part of awareness and was taken up well by a majoirty of the teaching staff. It was the ignorant few who chose to mouth off their disgust and in doing so the teaching staff concerned face disciplinary procedures for breaking the Universities code on Dignity and Respect.

What seems to have been missed out on here were the comments made by members of the Islamic Soc. What I cannot abide is when other minority groupings such as the UCD Islamic Soc. mouth off about how things go against there religion and beliefs! Do I really care? I let them live in my country and worship and practice whatever they wish, wherever they wish as long as it does not harm anyone else or break the law. And yet their Auditor went around urging people not to vote for a Homosexual candidate in our Sabbatical elections?? You can be damn sure I wouldn't be allowed to go around telling people not to vote for Blacks or muslims.. I'd be told off for being racist. I feel that if the Auditor of the Islamic Soc. and his fellow members, have issues with living in a liberal, western democracy then perhaps he may be more suited to living in a State that embodies some of the regressive teachings of Islam.

There is no place for cynicism in equality, the LGB students were trying to promote awareness and equality and what was mostly a positive campaign was slightly sidelined by a few bigots.

Sounds to me that some people didn't agree with you, voiced an opinion after being backed into a yea or nay situation, and now you saying they will be punished for it. If you don't want people to disagree with you don't ask their opinion. The notion that they may have rejected your idea's due to its stupidity never crossed your mind, rather it must have been that they are bigoted and to blind to see the real truth, your truth. Is it so hard to believe that people don't give a fuk if your gay, that's true equality, when people start treating you with the same level of contempt as they would anybody else.

btw What the hell is a coming out week, do you run up to random people and get into their face about your sexuality?

as for the Islamic Soc. they maybe homophobes, but you sir are small minded. It's not your country to allow anything, they are initialed to hate you, So am I, so is anyone else, They are not initialed to act on that however.

Suzybie

This discussion is now clearly in breach of the charter listed for this board. Racisim, religious intolerance never mind the homophobia and a troll or 3 in for good measure...Moderators your opinions please?

GuanYin

Originally posted by Suzybie
This discussion is now clearly in breach of the charter listed for this board. Racisim, religious intolerance never mind the homophobia and a troll or 3 in for good measure...Moderators your opinions please?

What?

Oh dear god, people here have been civil for the most part, perhaps a few rash comments about the islamic society.

Is it so hard to believe that people don't give a fuk if your gay, that's true equality, when people start treating you with the same level of contempt as they would anybody else.

Its a bit brash, but it sums it up really. Why does a lecturer need to make you feel comfortable being gay? Should he make every non-"white heterosexual middle class" person feel at ease too? Or do people feel it is only gay people that need to be reassured? Do you really think that the Dr. Brayden guy deserves to be up there with the actual bigot? If people actually read what he mailed they'd see that all but the last line was spot on, and the last line was perhaps naive more than biggoted.

I saw one message board with both their contact details posted up together.... I really think some people get a bandwagon and leap