Cyprus

Victor

I understood that Cyprus was joining either as a reunited country or as a smaller country, not as an "part occupied" country. The sections in bold make some disturbing reading. While I understand they want to apply pressure, potentially it's "bad" pressure. http://www.breakingnews.ie/2004/02/19/story134870.html

Official's home bombed before Cyprus reunification talks
19/02/2004 - 7:39:53 am

Just hours before Cyprus' reunification talks were scheduled to begin today, a small bomb exploded in front of the home of the prime minister of the self-declared Turkish Cypriot state. There were no injuries.

Turkish Cypriot Prime Minister Mehmet Ali Talat, a leading advocate of reunification, quickly vowed that the talks would go on.

The blast in front of his home shattered windows and tore apart tree branches and street signs.

Greek Cypriot President Tassos Papadopoulos will meet with Turkish Cypriot leader Rauf Denktash and Mr Talat at an abandoned airport on the sides’ border later today for a round of UN-sponsored peace talks aimed at ending the island’s division

“There is no return from this road,” Mr Talat told reporters in front of his home after the early morning blast. “In this process, there may be some people who are disturbed by the two communities coming closer, but such acts will not make us return from this path.”

There have been fears in Cyprus that extremists could use violence to try and disrupt the talks.

For decades, negotiations have failed, but the two sides now face a firm deadline. Cyprus enters the European Union on May 1 as a united country or as a divided land with UN peacekeepers patrolling in its capital.

The EU and US are closely watching the talks and are putting pressure on Turkey and Greece to press for a settlement before Cyprus’ entry into the EU.

For Turkey, Cyprus’s entry as a split country could be a disaster for its own EU bid. Turkey has 40,000 troops on the north of the island and EU leaders have made it clear that those soldiers could be considered as occupying EU territory after May 1.

In an address to parliament, Turkish foreign minister Abdullah Gul spoke of the possibility that without a solution, some EU officials who visit aspiring member Turkey in the future could be from Cyprus.

For EU and Greek Cypriot leaders, the division raises the possibility of an EU member that controls only two-thirds of its territory. EU laws would only apply in the internationally recognised Greek Cypriot side of the island if Cyprus enters the EU divided.

“We are now closer than ever to finding a solution,” EU Expansion Commissioner Guenter Verheugen said earlier this week. Mr Verheugen arrived in Cyprus yesterday to stress the EU’s interest in a settlement.

US President George W Bush pressed the need for a solution in his January talks with Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

The negotiations will open at Nicosia’s airport, which was abandoned after the island was divided in 1974 following a Turkish invasion after a short-lived coup by supporters of union with Greece. The airport is now used by UN peacekeepers.

The last round of talks collapsed in April, amid Mr Denktash’s objections. Mr Denktash has long said that uniting the Turkish Cypriot north with the Greek Cypriot south would lead to Greek Cypriot domination.

The south, with a population of 600,000, has three times as many people as the north and about five times the per capita income.

mike65

Yep its a a strange one, when Cyprus was mentioned as an applicant member I naturally wondered about the Turkish occupation and what its status would be, but I suppose I also asumed that they'd all have reached some sort of workable solution by May 1.

If Turkey has genuine ambition to join the EU its going to have to swallow a lot of north Cyprus pride.

This from Swissinfo.org

Failure to reach a deal will mean only the Greek Cypriot south joins the EU, and Turkey knows its efforts to start its own membership talks
could hinge on the Cyprus peace process.

In a sign of the importance of the talks for the European Union, EU Enlargement Commissioner Guenter Verheugen met Denktash and
Papadopoulos at the end of their session.

"We want a united Cyprus to join the EU and what we want to do is to help the Turkish Cypriots start a catch up process," Verheugen told
reporters.

POWER-SHARING

The U.N. plan involves turning Cyprus into a loose power-sharing federation as well as territory trade-offs, return of refugees and a gradual
scaling down of Greek and Turkish forces on the heavily militarised Mediterranean island.

Mike.

Johnmb

Originally posted by Victor
I understood that Cyprus was joining either as a reunited country or as a smaller country, not as an "part occupied" country. The sections in bold make some disturbing reading. While I understand they want to apply pressure, potentially it's "bad" pressure. http://www.breakingnews.ie/2004/02/19/story134870.html

It's just the fact that nobody recognises the north as a country (except Turkey), so that means it is occupied. If agreement isn't reached, then nothing will change when Cyprus joins the EU, things will stay as they are regarding the staus of the north, the "part occupied" bit is nothing new.

Nuttzz

I had the "misfortune" of having to spend a couple of months in Turkey. To be honest I hope they never get into the EU, their occupation of Cyprus is illegal and so long as the Turks continue to abuse human rights, both at home and in Cyprus, they are not welcome into the EU as far as I am concerned.

sceptre

Looking at the small picture for the moment, one of the big issues will have to be property deeds. There are properties in the north that have British deeds, Cypriot deeds and TRAC deeds. It's an aspect of the discussions that probably won't get reported much if at all but it's going to be one of the major sticking points. It's easy (and probably fair) to say that recent Turkish settlers shouldn't have the right to hold on to land that's just been occupied but someone's going to be looking for compensation from someone. They can't all just be piled into Famagusta (especially given that people will be looking for their property back there too).

It's been a few years since I was in Cyprus but I remember grinning when I heard British tour guides pushing the case that there were few Turks who had any right to land that should be owned by Greek Cypriots given that most of them (excluding the recent West Bank style additions) had only been there four hundred years (I assume since Lepanto). I was diplomatic enough not to mention Norn Iron.

Victor

Originally posted by Nuttzz
To be honest I hope they never get into the EU, their occupation of Cyprus is illegal

So was the Greek-Cypriot coup.

Originally posted by Nuttzz
and so long as the Turks continue to abuse human rights, both at home and in Cyprus, they are not welcome into the EU as far as I am concerned.

Things are changing in Turkey.

But then again this thread is about Cyprus.

chill

Originally posted by Nuttzz
I had the "misfortune" of having to spend a couple of months in Turkey. To be honest I hope they never get into the EU, their occupation of Cyprus is illegal and so long as the Turks continue to abuse human rights, both at home and in Cyprus, they are not welcome into the EU as far as I am concerned.

Agreed 100%.

Also this continued expansion is the best kept secret of the anti federalists. By expanding so fast and so unpreparedly, it is ensuring that there is no way we can ever have a wide consensus on major issues in the future in Europe.

If Turkey were to be allowed in then the EU would be on it's last legs. Turkey is not democratic, it has a dire human rights status, it would be a gateway into the EU for Islamic extremists, and there is nothing remotely European about Turkey, Turkey's society or Turkey's culture.

Victor

Originally posted by chill
Also this continued expansion is the best kept secret of the anti federalists.

What are you on about? Expansion has been to the forefront of the EU agenda for at least 5 years.

And can we stay on topic? In some manner?

Johnmb

One question I have (it may have been reported somewhere, but I missed it) is what is the big deal about 1 May? Is it just a date to aspire to for the sake of setting a date, or will there be added complications for reunification if it takes place after Cyprus is an EU member that won't exist if it joins as a unified country? Germany unified after it was a member, but different treaties were in force at that time, do the current treaties make it more difficult for divided countries to join together within the EU?

sceptre

Originally posted by Johnmb
One question I have (it may have been reported somewhere, but I missed it) is what is the big deal about 1 May? Is it just a date to aspire to for the sake of setting a date, or will there be added complications for reunification if it takes place after Cyprus is an EU member that won't exist if it joins as a unified country? Germany unified after it was a member, but different treaties were in force at that time, do the current treaties make it more difficult for divided countries to join together within the EU?

Basically it's as simple as this John. Cyprus joins the EU on 1 May. When that event happens, if Cyprus is still divided and there are still Turkish troops occupying the north of the island, part of the EU is occupied by a foreign force in a manner that isn't recognised internationally by anyone except Turkey, which by coincidence is also an applicant for membership.

It's different to the German issue as that state was internationally recognised as two distinct countries prior to unification. It's also different from other border disputes (including Rockall and Gibraltar) due to the combination of lack of diplomatic recognition, the presence of troops and the lack of any treaty (even a disputed one) applicable to the dispute. As mentioned in Victor's first article, there's also the possible problem of an EU delegation visiting Turkey with a Cypriot member in tow. This is a mere diplomatic hurdle though compared to the problem of Turkey illegally occupying part of the EU.
(note that I'm talking about Turkey, not Turkish Cypriots)

halkar

Originally posted by chill
Agreed 100%.

Also this continued expansion is the best kept secret of the anti federalists. By expanding so fast and so unpreparedly, it is ensuring that there is no way we can ever have a wide consensus on major issues in the future in Europe.

If Turkey were to be allowed in then the EU would be on it's last legs. Turkey is not democratic, it has a dire human rights status, it would be a gateway into the EU for Islamic extremists, and there is nothing remotely European about Turkey, Turkey's society or Turkey's culture.

Chill out chill EU ignored Turkey for many decades which I beleive contributed Turkey's human rights status. As for Cyprus, who gave the right to Greeks to form a country but not to Turks, why are the Turks the invaders and Greeks the owners of the island? Cyprus was part of Ottoman empire for many hundred years and then British and once decided that island should be free of arms then we get the greeks want to take over the island and turks invades . :rolleyes: how unfortunate me thinks.

Johnmb

Originally posted by sceptre
Basically it's as simple as this John. Cyprus joins the EU on 1 May. When that event happens, if Cyprus is still divided and there are still Turkish troops occupying the north of the island, part of the EU is occupied by a foreign force in a manner that isn't recognised internationally by anyone except Turkey, which by coincidence is also an applicant for membership.

It's different to the German issue as that state was internationally recognised as two distinct countries prior to unification. It's also different from other border disputes (including Rockall and Gibraltar) due to the combination of lack of diplomatic recognition, the presence of troops and the lack of any treaty (even a disputed one) applicable to the dispute. As mentioned in Victor's first article, there's also the possible problem of an EU delegation visiting Turkey with a Cypriot member in tow. This is a mere diplomatic hurdle though compared to the problem of Turkey illegally occupying part of the EU.
(note that I'm talking about Turkey, not Turkish Cypriots)

So basically the deadline is irrelevant, as it will not be any more dificult for Cyprus to reunite after it becomes an EU member than it is for them to reunite now?

sceptre

Originally posted by Johnmb
So basically the deadline is irrelevant, as it will not be any more dificult for Cyprus to reunite after it becomes an EU member than it is for them to reunite now?

From the point of view of the Cypriots, basically, yes. It's when the bureaucrats and their generals get involved though...

sceptre

So the referendum's failed. Good majority pro on the Turkish Cypriot side, massive majority con on the Greek Cypriot side.

Seems (as I mentioned above) that the property deal was the major sticking point for the Greeks, obviously alongside the 50-50 powersharing deal. Looks like there will be tourist trips to look at Famagusta through telescopes for a while yet.

Observer

BBC

Chaos-Engine

Re-Unification should have been a precondition of entry for the Island. The Greek Cypriots had much to loss from a Unification with the Northern Occupied 1/3. The Greek Cypriot 2/3s knew that they would be in the EU either way. They had much to lose from ReUnification. Looking to German ReUnification. The Financial and Human problems that came with it.
Knowing all these issues the Greek Cypriots rejected it and tactically so. In their eyes why not take the best deal possible. As they would never loss and would still be members of the EU post May 1st Unified or not.

Another UN/EU organised injustice is carried out in our time

Sand

Re-Unification should have been a precondition of entry for the Island. The Greek Cypriots had much to loss from a Unification with the Northern Occupied 1/3. The Greek Cypriot 2/3s knew that they would be in the EU either way. They had much to lose from ReUnification. Looking to German ReUnification. The Financial and Human problems that came with it.

The EU seems to be looking at removing the trade sanctions on Turkish Cyprus, so a work around may be that the Turkish Cypriot state is recognised and also included in the EU along with Turkey, thus unifying the Island in all but name. Just because Cyprus was historically united does not mean it always has to be. Bullying the Greek Cypriots into accepting what they clearly see as a very bad deal isnt a solution - it just leads to financial and human problems as you say.

androphobic

There are those who would say that the failure of the reunification referendum in Cyprus may be a blessing in disguise when it comes to the decision of the European Commission to recommend or advise against the opening of accession talks with Turkey at the end of this year.
The Cyprus problem was one of the reasons why Turkey's original application for full EU-Membership was rejected in 1989 and the failure to resolve the issue, whether Turkey's fault or not, will not help the Turkish application or their hopes for accession talks to commence early next year. So there are those who would say that many EU diplomats were secretly hoping that the attempt at reunification would fail for that very reason. (Sorry, slightly off topic.)

- andro