The "Muslim Bombs"

Victor

So China sold equipment / designs to Pakistan and from there equipment / designs were sold to North Korea, Iran and Libya. American Intelligence services got wind of this several years ago, but kept quiet. Bush names North Korea, Iran and Iraq as the axis of evil. Bush invades Iraq on intelligence that proves to be wrong. Libya subsequently gives up it's equipment to the Americans (possibly a proliferation in itself). There saeems to be a pattern but something is wrong. Opinions?

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2004/02/19/story134910.html

Nuclear equipment found at Iranian air base
19/02/2004 - 10:20:04 am

UN inspectors have discovered high-tech enrichment equipment on an Iranian air force base – the first known link between Tehran’s suspect nuclear programme and its military.

Diplomats in Vienna said the gas centrifuge system was found at an air base outside of the capital.

Such equipment is used to process uranium which can then be used for nuclear fuel or warheads, depending on the level of enrichment.

The International Atomic Energy Agency, whose inspectors are examining Iran’s nuclear activities for signs it was trying to create weapons, declined comment.

Confronted with evidence it had hid for nearly two decades, Iran last year acknowledged running an enrichment programme but says it is only to generate power. The United States and other nations, however, accuse Teheran of secretly trying to make weapons.

The revelation comes a week after diplomats leaked news that IAEA inspectors had found drawings of an advanced centrifuge design Iran had not owed up to having, despite pledges to be fully open about its nuclear activities.

The diplomats said the designs were of a P-2 centrifuge – more advanced than the P-1 model Iran has acknowledged using to enrich uranium for what is says are peaceful purposes.

They said preliminary investigations by inspectors working for the International Atomic Energy Agency indicated they matched drawings of equipment found in Libya and supplied by the Pakistani network headed by scientist Abdul Qadeer Khan.

Despite putting into question Iran’s pledge to be fully open, the finds do not advance suspicions that Tehran was trying to make nuclear weapons because of the dual use of enriched uranium.

But the location given by the diplomats of the advanced centrifuge – at the air base – cast doubt on Iranian claims that its military was not involved in the country’s nuclear programme.

sovtek

It's not nice to know that more countries are developing nuclear weapons, but it's not surprising either.
This doesn't prove that they are but of course it suggests it.
I'm actually more worried about my own government's breach of the NPT and it's stated intention of developing nukes that it intends to use.

magick

Well with the way Bush is running the US more counties will be encouraged to take up Nukes .

Sparks

Iraq says "We have no nukes!".
Iraq gets invaded by the US.
North Korea says "We have nukes, and we're not afraid to use them on you!"
North Korea gets trade offers and outright cash donations from the US to stop it's WMD programmes.

And you wonder why nuclear weapons are being looked at by more countries?

sceptre

Originally posted by Sparks
And you wonder why nuclear weapons are being looked at by more countries?

Anyone up for buying one copy of this and sending it to government buildings?

Sand

Iraq says "We have no nukes!".
Iraq gets invaded by the US.
North Korea says "We have nukes, and we're not afraid to use them on you!"
North Korea gets trade offers and outright cash donations from the US to stop it's WMD programmes.

And you wonder why nuclear weapons are being looked at by more countries?

Flawed soundbite.

More accurately, The US believes ( or at least says it belives ) Iraq is *developing* Nukes. It invades Iraq.

North Korea *has* nukes. North Korea gets trade offers and outright cash donations from the US to stop its WMD programmes ( and wasnt that the policy pursued by Clinton - Bush I think was criticised for taking a hardline on NK ...axis of evil and all that. )

And youd wonder why anyone would take the risk of *developing* nukes? Sure when you have them they increase your security. When youre trying to develop them they increase the chances of you becoming a "rogue" state and a victim of US intervention.

Sparks

Originally posted by Sand
Flawed soundbite.

Not really...

More accurately, The US believes ( or at least says it belives ) Iraq is *developing* Nukes. It invades Iraq.

Oh, what a can of worms. The US said it believed there were existing weapons of mass destruction, and in huge quantities, not development programmes. It listed a hundred sites where it said there were already weapons. The UN inspectors pointed out that this was rubbish, and were ignored. Then the US invaded and found, "oh horrors, the rest of the world was correct!".

North Korea *has* nukes.

No, they say they have nukes and the UN (or more specifcally the IAEA) say that it's a possibility.
Noone actually knows other than the few North Koreans who are in charge of the nuclear programmes.

And youd wonder why anyone would take the risk of *developing* nukes?

Because of the potential rewards as now being shown in North Korea?

Sure when you have them they increase your security. When youre trying to develop them they increase the chances of you becoming a "rogue" state and a victim of US intervention.

A statement which makes the implicit and unwarranted assumption that the US operates it's foreign policy in a fair and even-handed manner, and behaves as an ethical policeman in world affairs....
....otherwise you'd have to point out that if you have a lot of natural resources, and don't agree to whatever the US wants from you, you'd better have a large military....

mike65

Tis a pity neither the US or North Korea plays cricket...

Mike.

Capt'n Midnight

And there was me thinking that Pakistan, Israel and South Africa built the bomb together. (mines, reactors and expertise)

Oddly enough Indonesia was the third country to have an air force with nuclear bombers !
(though in all fairness the planes were crewed by russians)

Victor

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
And there was me thinking that Pakistan, Israel and South Africa built the bomb together. (mines, reactors and expertise)

Israel and South Africa had a long history of cooperation in all mattters military, however, I don't think they had any link to Pakistan. Pakistan was armed by China as a counterpoint to India.

A believed nuclear detonation in the Indian Ocean circa 1974 is variously attributed to India and South Africa.

www.fas.org will have plenty of details.

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
Oddly enough Indonesia was the third country to have an air force with nuclear bombers ! (though in all fairness the planes were crewed by russians)

References? Do you mean the bombers or the bombs?

sovtek

Originally posted by mike65
Tis a pity neither the US or North Korea plays cricket...

Mike.

Bush thinks its a bug that makes a funny noise.

thejollyrodger

quote:Originally posted by Sand
Flawed soundbite.


Not really...

YES it is a flawed soundbite sparky!! The reason as to why Iraq was invaded was for the entire stability of the region! Saudi Arabia is undergoing a revolution at the moment and the US wants to be there to make its own infulence!

quote:North Korea *has* nukes.


No, they say they have nukes and the UN (or more specifcally the IAEA) say that it's a possibility.
Noone actually knows other than the few North Koreans who are in charge of the nuclear programmes.

It doesnt take a great deal of scientific knowhow to create a dirty bomb if the country has a nuclear powerplant.

Victor

Some answers, more questions.

http://home.eircom.net/content/reuters/worldnews/2588505?view=Eircomnet

Libya and Iran: A great nuclear intelligence failure?
From:Reuters
Saturday, 21st February, 2004
By Louis Charbonneau

VIENNA (Reuters) - While Western intelligence policed the globe to halt the spread of nuclear weapons, a Pakistani company that specialised in enriching uranium offered its expertise to interested buyers in glossy brochures.

One pamphlet from Khan Research Laboratories (KLR) featured a picture of Abdul Qadeer Khan, the father of Pakistan's nuclear programme, against a background of missiles, rocket launchers and the mountains where the Islamabad government conducted its 1998 nuclear tests.

"The main focus of our expertise/service is on the promotion of joint ventures for the manufacturing of advanced defence weapons/equipment," said a brochure, seen by Reuters.

Libya, Iran and North Korea knew where to shop for sensitive nuclear technology in a marketplace that stretched across Europe into Africa, the Middle East and Asia, but the U.N. nuclear watchdog and some Western intelligence agencies have said they were in the dark until recently.

"This was a massive intelligence failure," a non-aligned diplomat told Reuters. "Where was the intelligence?"

One source said Khan was not a figure on the arms trade-fair circuit and that his company's advertising "was circulated but not through legitimate channels".

But a Western diplomat recently told Reuters the United States "had its eyes on Khan for a long time" and also knew about a Malaysian facility that was building centrifuge parts based on Khan's blueprints for Libya's nuclear programme.

In early February, Khan admitted in a televised confession that he and other KRL scientists had leaked nuclear secrets. The International Atomic Energy Agency and Western diplomats said his top nuclear customers were Iran, Libya and North Korea.

FAILURE OF GOVERNMENTS

Several diplomats and analysts said the Libyan and Iranian nuclear programmes highlighted the failure of governments either to gather proper intelligence, or if they did have intelligence, to give it to the IAEA.

"Remember that it wasn't the CIA or MI6 that uncovered the Iranian enrichment programme, it was the NCRI," said a diplomat close to the IAEA, referring to the National Council of Resistance of Iran, a coalition of exiled opposition groups that Washington considers a terrorist organisation.

In August 2002, the NCRI said Iran was hiding a massive underground enrichment facility at Natanz, a facility Tehran eventually declared to the IAEA.

Khan and several nuclear "middlemen" arranged for the illicit sale of sensitive atomic technologies that slipped past supposedly strict national export controls to countries under embargo. Thanks to this, Libya was able to pursue an aggressive, covert nuclear weapons programme under the nose of the IAEA.

Diplomats said it was Khan who provided Libya with the centrifuge technology and weapons designs. They say he appears to have sold many of the same things to both Tripoli and Tehran.

Intelligence sources say Khan sold Pyongyong the same enrichment technology for North Korean missile technology, which prompted Washington to slap sanctions on the KRL.

While Tripoli never managed to build a weapon or even enrich uranium, an IAEA report released on Friday said Libya developed the know-how to make a small amount of plutonium, the ingredient used in the atom bomb the United States dropped on Nagasaki, Japan, on August 9, 1945.

The IAEA only learned about Libya's arms effort in December, when Tripoli said it was scrapping its nuclear, biological and chemical weapons programmes and invited U.S., British and international experts to help it disarm.

The IAEA report said prior to Libya's disclosure "it had no actionable intelligence" to go on, despite suspicions raised by numerous analysts over the years.

"It is a disturbing sign that Libya was able to accumulate materials and technology without the IAEA or apparently U.S. intelligence being aware of these developments," Jon Wolfsthal, deputy director of the Non-Proliferation Project at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, told Reuters.

"The United States and other countries should share more intelligence with the IAEA," said David Albright, former U.N. weapons inspector and head of the Institute for Science and International Security (ISIS).

"TIP OF THE ICEBERG"

Iran has admitted to concealing the full extent of its nuclear programme for decades and buying technology on the black market. But it rejects U.S. charges it is secretly developing nuclear weapons and promises full transparency in the future.

The IAEA is expected to release a report on its inspections in Iran in the coming week. Diplomats said it would detail Iran's continued failure to declare potentially weapons-related atomic equipment to the U.N. agency.

IAEA chief Mohamed ElBaradei said Khan was a key player but was "the tip of an iceberg" in the atomic "supermarket" for states wanting the bomb, a network he said spanned the globe.

Questions also remain about the possible involvement in governments in the black-market network.

The KRL logo sports the words: "The Government of Pakistan".

Khan has said he leaked weapons secrets without the knowledge of the Pakistani government. But diplomats who follow the IAEA find this hard to believe.

"Signing contracts with governments and international agencies? It's hard to believe Pakistan's government didn't know what he was up to," said one Western diplomat.

http://home.eircom.net/content/reuters/worldnews/2587112?view=Eircomnet

Pakistan gives army nuclear-capable missile
From:Reuters
Saturday, 21st February, 2004
By Tahir Ikram

ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - Pakistan has taken delivery of a short-range nuclear-capable ballistic missile, according to a military statement.

The "indigenously produced" surface-to-surface solid-fuel missile Hatf-III Ghaznavi was delivered to the Army Strategic Force Command at a ceremony attended by President Pervez Musharraf, it said on Saturday.

It quoted Musharraf as saying that missile tests over the last four years and the delivery of systems to the military demonstrated his government's resolve to "consolidate and strengthen" Pakistan's nuclear deterrent.

Pakistan's nuclear programme has under come under close international scrutiny since the "father" of the country's atom bomb confessed publicly to having passed nuclear secrets to Iran, Libya and North Korea.

The U.N.'s International Atomic Energy Agency has described the role of Pakistan's Abdul Qadeer Khan as the "tip of an iceberg" in a massive international nuclear trade.

"Pakistan's nuclear capability is for the sole purpose of deterrence of aggression against Pakistan and for the defence of our sovereignty," the statement quoted Musharraf as saying.

"He assured the world that the (proliferation) network had been uprooted within Pakistan," it added.

Pakistan says its weapons programme is solely in response to that of its nuclear-armed arch-rival India, with which it has fought three wars since independence from Britain in 1947.

This month the two countries' foreign secretaries agreed on a roadmap for a peace process to resolve all outstanding issues including Kashmir, cause of two of their three wars.

The army statement said Hatf III had a range of 180 miles and had successfully been tested in 2002 and 2003.

"It now forms an integral component of Pakistan's operational deterrence systems, which also include Shaheen series and Ghauri intermediate-range missiles," it added.

Pakistan's military already has the Hatf-IV missile, known as the Shaheen One, with a range of 750 km (466 miles) and capable of carrying all types of warheads and the Hatf V Ghauri missile, which has a range of up to 2,300 km (1,440 miles).

Capt'n Midnight

Still havn't found the links - but AFAIR it was both - Russian crews in Russian Bombers with Russian Bombs

Seems the old memory is failing - they were fourth

Thus AURI, the Indonesian Air Force, become the fourth Air Force in the world to operate long range strategic jet bombers beside being the first in the Southern Hemisphere to have Mach 2 jet fighter.

http://www.angkasa-online.com/09/12/english/english1.htm
This article does no mention nuclear weapons - but I'm fairly sure there were planes with Russian crews there for those.

BTW:
AFAIK one of the flashes (south atlantic) that was previously attributed to a South Africian test is now reckoned to be a metroite.

http://www.nti.org/e_research/profiles/SAfrica/Nuclear/2149_3275.html
http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Safrica/Vela.html

History of pakistani nuke program..
http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Pakistan/PakOrigin.html

Victor

http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0307/libya.html

Libya takes 'major step' to disarmament: US

March 7, 2004

(07:12) Officials in the United States say Libya has taken a 'major step' toward its nuclear disarmament by surrendering the main components of its weapons programme.

A White House spokesperson said 500 tons of nuclear weapon-related equipment, including SCUD missiles, were being shipped to an undisclosed location in the US.

Interesting that they are taking everything the USA - why no just dismantle the Scuds / blow them up in the desert. Do the Americans want Scuds (if nothing else to steal the technology, albeit very dated)? Are they willing to "pay" for such technology?

chill

Originally posted by Victor
http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0307/libya.htmlInteresting that they are taking everything the USA - why no just dismantle the Scuds / blow them up in the desert. Do the Americans want Scuds (if nothing else to steal the technology, albeit very dated)? Are they willing to "pay" for such technology?

Yeah... blow it all up out there in the desert.... what does it matter if it blows nuclear contamination all over the desert... who the heck lives out there anyway....

Wow what a great idea....

Sparks

Originally posted by chill
Yeah... blow it all up out there in the desert.... what does it matter if it blows nuclear contamination all over the desert... who the heck lives out there anyway....
Wow what a great idea....

Actually, it makes more sense to destroy the launchers there and ship the warheads somewhere else for dissassembly. The only problem is who do you ship the warheads to? The only place they're going to is no longer really the most trustworthy country around, is it?

Victor

Originally posted by chill
blow it all up out there in the desert.... what does it matter if it blows nuclear contamination all over the desert...

I'm suggesting blowing up the missiles - metal, rocket fuel and some mechanics / electronics nothing radioactive there.

When you put your brain in gear, you can come back to the big table.