It is time for the IRA to disband.

Cork

Recent events in the North have shown that IRA has not gone away.

Michael Mc Dowell has said:

“It is trying to have a private army, a private police force and to pretend it is on a sort of military ceasefire, and having the equivalent of police state within the state itself.

“The IRA and the Provisional movement – and that includes Sinn Fein, they are two sides of the same coin – are insatiable in making demands about everybody else.

The Army Council of the IRA has point-blank refused to give up its criminality, its thuggery, its torture and has on occasions authorised operations that bear all the signs of a murder in the making.

It is about time the IRA did go away - Its continued existance is an insult to every Irish democrat. Kidnappings & punishment beatings are totally unacceptable.

Atreides

Hmm have you actually thought about what would happen if the IRA disbaned today, arms dumps would be left in the hands of local commanders, not something I'd look forward to. Northern Ireland isn't Irish its a british coloney, I fail to see the connection between it and irish democracy.

David-[RLD]-

Of course the IRA hasn't just gone away. I'd hardly expect them to just suddenly disband.

I doubt they'll ever disband before unity is achieved. :ninja:

(of course I could be proven wrong...)

Sparks

How do you debate a truism?

bonkey

How do you debate a truism?

Like so.

Having re-read through that old(ish) thread, I'm wondering what has changed that makes the topic any different today.

All I see is : Politician calls for terrorist group to disband. Film at 11.

jc

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

mneylon

Was there any thought behind the original poster's message?
It seemed to lack any logic. How can you expect the IRA to unilaterally disband considering the current state of affairs?
If you want to discuss it at least provide some "food for thought".

ReefBreak

Originally posted by blacknight
Was there any thought behind the original poster's message?
It seemed to lack any logic. How can you expect the IRA to unilaterally disband considering the current state of affairs?
If you want to discuss it at least provide some "food for thought".

Is there any logic behind you're post? It's not about "the current state of affairs", it's about the existence of vile, disgusting terrorist groups (this includes the loyalist ones) and their continuing existence. Seems quite logical to me.

mneylon

You would need to define "terrorist groups" to start with.
Calling them "vile" and "disgusting" sounds a bit like a tabloid headline. Surely you can do better?

David-[RLD]-

extremist groups fighting for what they believe in

i think that's a fair enough definition...

mneylon

Originally posted by David-[RLD]-
extremist groups fighting for what they believe in

i think that's a fair enough definition...

The Irish republic would never have come into existence if it hadn't been for extremists. The same could be said about a lot of modern democracies.

emertoff

It would be great to see a final, conclusive end to all IRA activities but to think that will happen anytime soon is naive. Firstly, many people fail to grasp the fact that the very existence of the IRA in any form is entirely dependent on the willingness of the majority of the nationalist community in the North to allow them operate. The IRA membership come from the grassroots of the nationalist community. How could they have lasted as long as they have otherwise? Northern Ireland is a small place. Personally, I would be uncomfortable at the prospect of SF in government here, but the IRA are to be given credit for sticking to their ceasefire at a time of contuining loyalist violence and activity amongst republican splinter groups, not to mention the political thaw at present.

Cork

Originally posted by bonkey
How do you debate a truism?

Like so.

Having re-read through that old(ish) thread, I'm wondering what has changed that makes the topic any different today.

All I see is : Politician calls for terrorist group to disband. Film at 11.

jc

The attempted abduction on Friday night is worrying.

I think there is no place for illegal armies in this country. The IRA seem to be using their cache of weapons to obtain political leverage. This is sad. I think the threat of weapons falling into the wrong hands is a spurious arguement. Let SF/IRA simply decommission.

Is it any wonder the Peace Process is in stalled. Would you trust a political party with an illegal army?

What if FF/FG or Labour was associated with a group of thugs imposing street justice.

SF has problems with the policing board - but how does SF feel about punishment beatings?

mike65

Originally posted by emertoff
Personally, I would be uncomfortable at the prospect of SF in government here, but the IRA are to be given credit for sticking to their ceasefire...

Sigh, its a sad state of affiars when NOT killing is a reason for patting someone the back. Well done for not murdering any of us.

Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou.

Mike.

mneylon

Originally posted by Cork
I think there is no place for illegal armies in this country. The IRA seem to be using their cache of weapons to obtain political leverage. This is sad. I think the threat of weapons falling into the wrong hands is a spurious arguement. Let SF/IRA simply decommission.

Are you a Unionist, or simply naive?

Is it any wonder the Peace Process is in stalled. Would you trust a political party with an illegal army?

Show me a political party that is worthy of trust.
The British army has proved itself to be just as bad as any "illegal" army. The Gibraltar 3 being a case in point

What if FF/FG or Labour was associated with a group of thugs imposing street justice.

They are hardly above rebuke considering the number of tribunals currently underway.

SF has problems with the policing board - but how does SF feel about punishment beatings?

Why don't you ask them?

bonkey

Originally posted by ReefBreak
it's about the existence of vile, disgusting terrorist groups (this includes the loyalist ones) and their continuing existence.

Is it?

I see nothing in either Cork's post, or McDowells comments concerning any terrorist group other than the IRA.

Yes, it stands to reason that they should all be treated the same, but if thats "reason", then why does it seem to be in short supply? Why does no-one ask if it is time for all terrorist groups in the North to disband??? Why are the IRA the only terrorist group typically singled out as a stumbling-block to the peace process?

IRA is not synonymous with "Republican terrorist" nor indeed "Northern Irish terrorist", and yet whenever the questions are posted, they are pose about the IRA....only to have someone point out at a later stage that this is somehow intended to mean "all terrorist groups in the North of Ireland".

I dunno....maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill, but I think that when you pose a question or make a statement about a specific group, then you are questioning/assering something about that group and that group alone. If you had meant to include others, then you would have done so when asking/asserting in the first place.

Neither Cork, nor McDowell called for the disbanding of all terrorist groups in the North, just the IRA.

Indeed, in his most recent post (just above this), Cork has clarified his position to say :

I think there is no place for illegal armies in this country.

which was promising, but then goes on to discuss one and only one of those illegal armies.

The IRA are - according to what we can see in these posts - the stumbling block. They are the ones who should disband. Sinn Fein are the ones which should not be accepted because they allegedly have "a private army".

I see nothing which hints that anyone other than Sinn Fein and the IRA are being targetted or discussed by those statements.

So while I would agree that the North would be a better place without any of the terrorists, I would strongly disagree that this is what is being discussed at all.

jc

DeVore

It was time the IRA disbanded a long long time ago. If they had... we'd already have a United Ireland. They are whats stopping that, not the unionists.

DeV.

Atreides

Originally posted by DeVore
It was time the IRA disbanded a long long time ago. If they had... we'd already have a United Ireland. They are whats stopping that, not the unionists.

DeV.

And also all those that want nothing to do with the north.

mneylon

Originally posted by DeVore
It was time the IRA disbanded a long long time ago. If they had... we'd already have a United Ireland. They are whats stopping that, not the unionists.

DeV.

That is the most ridiculous statement I've seen in a long time. The IRA are hardly the root of the problem. There a are other republican groups that have, admittedly, caused problems since the introduction of the GFA. However, the real stumbling block has been and remains the unionists' unwillingness to share power.
They may lay the blame on "IRA/Sinn Fein", but to date they have not shown any inclination to enter into any real power-sharing government.
If there was to be any consistency with regard to the "problem" then surely all the guns should be taken out of the debate - including all those held by the occupation forces.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

mneylon

Originally posted by daveirl
No loyalist ever went and blew up people in my name.

Of course they didn't! You'd be considered a "free stater"

Zombrex

Originally posted by bonkey
IThe IRA are - according to what we can see in these posts - the stumbling block. They are the ones who should disband. Sinn Fein are the ones which should not be accepted because they allegedly have "a private army".

I see nothing which hints that anyone other than Sinn Fein and the IRA are being targetted or discussed by those statements.

They do have a private army. The IRA are the only terrorist who have a political party in the assembly (afaik). That is what people object to. The are a major if not the major stumbling block. How can you ask anyone, including the loyalists, to be in power with a party that is linked to a terrorist organisation.

Two things can move this forward -

1 - Sinn Fein denounce the IRA and say they have broken all contact with the organisation and will never have any contact with them again (never going to happen).

2 - The IRA decommission and go away, for good, allowing the other parties to deal with Sinn Fein.

Anyone who claims that Sinn Fein and the IRA are not together either is lying or has no idea about Northern Ireland.

The thing I find amazing is that people are not more outraged here in the south that Sinn Fein continue to be the party of the IRA. Just think about what it actually means Would we accept the Labour representing people who kill their enemies, or FG being involved with people who shoot "criminals" on sight? What kind of a society do we want for Northern Ireland (or here in the South where Sinn Fein are a presence too).

mneylon

Wicknight: Are the IRA active?
No.
So what is your point?

mike65

Blacknight the point is self-evident. The IRA exists. Sinn Fein are supposed to uphold the tennents of democracy.

These two states of being are not compatible.


Mike.

mneylon

Originally posted by mike65
Blacknight the point is self-evident. The IRA exists. Sinn Fein are supposed to uphold the tennents of democracy.

These two states of being are not compatible.


Mike.

I would disagree. The point is only "self-evident" if you subscribe to your particular point of view, which I don't.

You would need to expand a lot more to be able to even convince me of your own convictions.

mike65

Democracy & Private Army - Not compatible
Private Army & Democracy - Not compatible

Hmmm. Which bit don't you understand?

Mike.

mneylon

So democracy plus army = acceptable?
Even if the government in question has made dubious use of the military on numerous occasions....

Besides the IRA are pro GFA. You might be taken more seriously if you attacked dissident republicans. Hell! I might even take you seriously if you did.

Raskolnikov

Originally posted by Wicknight
The IRA are the only terrorist who have a political party in the assembly (afaik).

The PUP (Progressive Unionist Party) have a private army in the UVF.

Anyway, it was the Unionists who brought the gun into Irish politics, when the UVF/UDA disband and nationalist areas in N. Ireland are substantially demilitarised, the IRA should disband then.

I don't see why this has to be debated when there are far more dangerous elements on both sides with the Loyalist drug gangs murdering each other and the INLA driving teenagers to suicide. These extremists are far more destructive to the stability of the North than some silent guns sitting in some underground bunker.

mneylon

Of course nobody ever asks the unionists to handover the guns .......

Raskolnikov

Originally posted by blacknight
Of course nobody ever asks the unionists to handover the guns .......

Exactly, if there is going to be disarmament then it has to be complete disarmament by all sides and that includes the British Army.

My problem with the disarmament issue at the moment is that despite it being used as a means to prop up David Trimble, if the tension flares up again and Nationalists are left without anything to defend themselves with. Nationalists would become ripe for ethnic cleansing and I certainly don't trust the British army to defend my family and friends in the North.

mneylon

Which goes back to the reasons why the IRA came back into existence in the late 60s.