It is time for the IRA to disband.

GeorgeBush · 23-02-2004 9:35pm

The provos are scum and a scurge on this country. THe government has went too soft on them but I dont honestly belive Ireland will ever see the back of scum like that.

They have their hand in everything, from smuggling petrol accross the border to arming gangs in Limerick to supplying drugs to kids throughout Ireland.

How can the provos let by that Monaghan TD actually be allowed to sit in the Dail ??

sceptre · 23-02-2004 9:42pm

Originally posted by daveirl
Actually no it doesn't. In most countries a government can be elected on less than 50% of the vote, let alone 50% of the electorate.

Indeed - let's illustrate it with a made-up example with nice rounded figures:

UK population is about 60 million (let's assume they all get a vote). 650 FPTP constituencies (is it still 650?) (ignoring the Speaker's freebie), let's say they're all the same size (giving each a population of 92000-odd)

For arguments sake let's say Labour win two more than half of those constituencies by one vote
(for the sake of ease I'm going to pretend that each constituency has a population of 92001)

Total hypothetical Labour vote:
46001*((650/2)+1) = 14996326

Let's say the others win all other constituencies with 100% of the vote
(92001*((650/2)-1) = 29808324
Add the votes they got in the contituencies that Labour one by one vote
(46000*((650/2)+1) = 14996000

Total non-Labour vote: 44804324
Percentage: 75%
Number of seats: 324

Total Labour vote: 14996326
Percentage: 25%
Number of seats: 326

Government: Labour majority by two seats

Chances are that no-one disbelieved Dave anyway but there you go. In the UK that's as extreme as it can possibly get (ignoring that the Speaker will vote with the government so they actually only need the same number of seats). Far too complicated to work it out for Ireland due to multiseat PR by STV but the conclusion can be similar. Assume that only half the population with a vote votes and a party can get a majority based on only 12% of the electorate. It's still democracy.

This is a bit off-topic innit?

willywanka · 23-02-2004 10:25pm

The IRA and the dissents have to call it a day

Gearoid · 23-02-2004 11:46pm

And on Friday, three IRA men wandered into Kellys (a pub in the middle of the city), beat a man unconcious with iron bars, dragged him outside and threw him into a van and drove off. If the PSNI hadn't stopped the van and caught them, do you think they'd have wound up sitting round a table drinking coffee and resolving their differences through dialogue?

Do we know they were acting on behalf of IRA orders?, You see this all comes back to the problem that we'll never know for sure are they disbanded, are all the guns gone, have they stopped recruiting etc. It's seems now that if an IRA man gets in a fight the IRA are being accused of breaking ceasefire, there are people who take part in thugery like the above example all the time from all backgrounds.
This just shows us that in the end an agreement has to be written out and signed by all parties and adhered to, this can only happen through trust and a bit of a leap of faith by everyone and unfortuantely as we saw last year it nearly happened but the trust was lacking on the Unionist side.
I'm not blaming Unionists as such I'm just saying what happened as the Unionists agreed to the terms the IRA decommisioned to and then went back on it.

daveirl · 24-02-2004 1:29am

This post has been deleted.

bonkey · 24-02-2004 4:08pm

Originally posted by daveirl
As I've said before General DeChastalin previously said that one gun being destroyed would be "significant" therefore when he says a "significant act of decomissioning occured" why am I to expect that this is the IRA ending the war.

Because after deChastelaine had made that "one gun" comment, and after the Unionists had agreed that the actual contents of the decomissioning did not have to be disclosed to them and after the Unionists had then demanded "significant progress", they turned around and said "We won't accept the word of the man who we agreed to trust on an issue that was fulfilled exactly to what we demanded according to the conditions we agreed to."

If they were stupid enough to accept deChastelain and to continue with the process despite his previous comments on what was significant, then thats their problem. But waiting till after the fact, and then dragging up some comment made previously and never previously mentioned as an issue is nothing but deliberate obstructionism.

jc

Mighty_Mouse · 24-02-2004 4:49pm

""""""quote:

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
A a lovely man he was too. An upstanding member of our society!!!

Two things:
1. dont be too quick to judge this incident

Why not, they did!

quote:

2. hence the need for a police force republicans trust

Kinda hard to complain about a protestant dominated force when they have a tendancy to shoot catholics who join it....

DeV."""""""""""""

1. How do you know?. WOW!! Where did you get your information. You should volunteer your resources to the special branch, CIA and MI5. Might even give you a few pound. And of coarse the sense of pride you would feel

2. Name one catholic shot for joining the PSNI

I think your talking outta your arse here DEV

Johnny 5 · 24-02-2004 8:50pm

daveirl, your quick in a previous post a few pages back to point out the 'commendable' act of decommissioning undertaken by a loyalist terror group. You fail to provide any details on that. I think it's worth noting that only 6 weapons were destroyed, out of a very large arsenal. The LVF are the smallest loyalist grouping in the six counties and the very reason for their decommissioning act was to pressure mowlam into transferring one of their prisoners to a different wing of the maze.

Now, if you think this pitiful act of so-called 'decommissioning' would suddenly put a moral obligation on the IRA to give up weapons, your very wrong. The very fact that we should remember such an act is offensive.

I've read over all the other posts, and it would take too long to address each individual issue so I'll just post a summary of my thoughts.

The posters who advocate IRA disbandment immediately do not understand the bigger picture. The Unionists just don't want to share power, it killed Ian Paisley to sit in the Assembly during the short time the Unionists had no excuse to tear it down, and listen to Bairbre de Brun speak Gaeilge.
Most people on this thread don't live in the North, but I do. So if you think for a minute the loyalist violence is non existent, your also very very wrong. The IRA cannot give up their guns until the Nationalist population are on an equal footing with their unionist neighbours and we have a proper accountable police force, not just changed in name and uniform.

Let us also remember that the IRA have kept their ceasefire while the loyalist were out murdering young catholic teens walking home at night. Everyone is very quick at forgetting the young man in Glengormley, who was murdered by machete-weilding UDA mobsters just a few months ago. I saw no thread on here condemning that, or asking for a discussion on asking the UDA to disband. Now when Hugh Orde throws out his drivel about the PIRA being involved in the kidnapping of a dissident, your all on here with knives drawn. There are two ways to look at Fridays event, either you don't believe the media hype (after all the IRA membership charges were suddenly dropped) or you commend the IRA for trying to keep the dissidents under control.

Some of you agree with the Paisleyites when you lambast de Chastelain for not making the decommissioning more 'transparent'. The Unionists signed up for the IICD so the excuse that they can't trust the judgement of a former Canadian Army General is absurd, it's just looking for an excuse to stall. How more transparent do they need it? de Chastelain was very clear in his statement the following day that the batch destroyed was the 'largest yet' and 'very significant' and he also gave details on what was destroyed, (large quantities of smgs/hmgs and several tonnes of semtex). If the IRA recorded it, sent it out on live tv and has Gerry Adams pouring the concrete into the bunker himself, there would still be problems with it. Next unionists would complain that the whole thing had been staged on some elaborate movie set in monaghan.

I'm glad someone mentioned the alledged stormont spy ring... what happened there eh? The charges pertaining to the spy-ring, you know the one that saw 20 PSNI/RUC officers in boiler suits launch a raid on the SF offices, were suddenly but quietly dropped. It's amazing that the raid was headline news all over Ireland, but the fact that it was falsified only managed a few columns in the centre pages. Remember it was this very reason which led to the unionists collapsing the assembly.

Moral of the story, people need to sort out their priorities and stop believing the unionist propaganda people in the south are so willing to entertain.

One more point, that comment about the North being merely a 'british colony' was deeply hurtful, and it would be nice if you could be man enough to retract it. Wasn't the 26 counties a british colony once? Some might argue it still is.

Gearoid · 24-02-2004 10:39pm

Posted by Daveirl

That's so debatable it's not even funny. As I've said before General DeChastalin previously said that one gun being destroyed would be "significant" therefore when he says a "significant act of decomissioning occured" why am I to expect that this is the IRA ending the war.

Your inability to follow my point is so bad it's not even funny, One more time?, the point is that trust is the thing needed for movement on the Peace process, by agreeing to the terms of the GFA the unionists accepted De chastelain as the independent arms inspector, they HAD to trust him, then they went back on their side of the agreement last year.

AmenToThat · 25-02-2004 5:55am

Originally posted by GeorgeBush
The provos are scum and a scurge on this country. THe government has went too soft on them but I dont honestly belive Ireland will ever see the back of scum like that.

They have their hand in everything, from smuggling petrol accross the border to arming gangs in Limerick to supplying drugs to kids throughout Ireland.

How can the provos let by that Monaghan TD actually be allowed to sit in the Dail ??

Your way off the mark on this one!
Yes they make alot of money off the petrol racket and as well as fags and dodgy clothes but supplying drugs to kids throughout Ireland?

Have you any evidence of this?

If so what drugs?
Heroin and cocaine, or just hashish which is socialy acceptable to a large portion of Irish society now?
As far as I know the Provos have very little to do with the illegal drugs trade in Ireland

The Real IRA and INLA however are going that direction (drug dealing) hence the guns that are being providing to the Limerick criminal gangs which again has nothing to do with the provos.

No matter what you think of the Proves its no use trying to blame them on everything that is wrong with this country because for one its not true and also it makes simple what is a very complicated part of the modern "western lifestyle" that effects just about every industrialized country on the planet.

Mighty_Mouse · 25-02-2004 2:08pm

On the whole IRA drugs thing - the IRA are traditionally against drugs - "poisoning the Irish youth" etc etc

Oh and for those who were very quick to judge -- the IRA have issued a statement in An Poblacht saying the kidnapping was not commissioned by the IRA

So ceasefire intact, unionists/Irish-southern-unionists (a new breed in here!) can search for another reason why the majority nationalists party in the north should not be in government!

Deathtobertie · 25-02-2004 2:38pm

Originally posted by Cork

What if FF/FG or Labour was associated with a group of thugs imposing street justice.

Hmmm, let me see... may day riots. Did anybody notice a group of thugs with batons imposing street justice?

Hmmm revelations about the Gardai on "Prime time". It would appear that FF at least are associated with a group of thugs who regularily impose street justice.

And no I don't believe that all gardai are like that, it is "a few bad apples". Can the same not apply to some "bad apples" breaking ranks with the IRA ceasefire?

Is it time for the gardai siochana to disband?

PS: Is georgebush really Cork in disguise?

ReefBreak · 25-02-2004 3:04pm

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
On the whole IRA drugs thing - the IRA are traditionally against drugs - "poisoning the Irish youth" etc etc

Oh and for those who were very quick to judge -- the IRA have issued a statement in An Poblacht saying the kidnapping was not commissioned by the IRA

So ceasefire intact, unionists/Irish-southern-unionists (a new breed in here!) can search for another reason why the majority nationalists party in the north should not be in government!

Here's a reason, which you may have forgotten, Sinn Féin are linked to a scumbag terrorist organisation that have murdered over 800 innocent civilians over the last 35 years. Remember that? Or are you under the age of 18, and have bought into the propaganda that the fascist Shinner's have been selling you?

As if any normal person (i.e. one that doesn't vote for Sinn Féin) would believe anything written in An Poblacht.

sceptre · 25-02-2004 4:30pm

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Oh and for those who were very quick to judge -- the IRA have issued a statement in An Poblacht saying the kidnapping was not commissioned by the IRA

The phrase (as reported on Today FM) used was "was not authorised by...".

Partly playing devil's advocate, I notice the phrase used was not "The IRA didn't do this" or "it wasn't one of our members as far as we can tell". Might be the difference between the army council saying "don't do it Mikey, we're on ceasefire" and "er, I didn't hear that Mikey and if you do it I'll say I didn't order it or /authorise/ it"
(or it could just be that it was nothing to do with them but I'll wait for some hard evidence on that one)

Depends on exactly what a "cease fire" is though - would a current member of the IRA who hasn't repudiated his membership or been kicked out, running around Belfast with an IRA-owned AK47 shooting people be classified as a break of the ceasefire?

BuffyBot · 25-02-2004 5:14pm

Hmmm, let me see... may day riots. Did anybody notice a group of thugs with batons imposing street justice?

Yes. But the Gardai are an accountable (how much so is another debate) public body. Oh, and they don't blow people up or kneecap people. Nor are they allied to one particular political party.

There are probably a few other differences...

ReefBreak · 25-02-2004 5:28pm

Originally posted by BuffyBot
Yes. But the Gardai are an accountable (how much so is another debate) public body. Oh, and they don't blow people or kneecap people. Nor are they allied to one particular political party.

There are probably a few other differences...

Did the Gardai ever intentionally set off a bomb in a hotel? The IRA did just that in 1978 in La Mon House, resulting in a "napalm-style firebomb" which incinerated 12 people and injured scores more. Easily one of the most worst acts of the troubles, the injuries caused to those that survives was almost incomprehensible.

ReefBreak · 25-02-2004 5:45pm

Did the gardai ever leave a bomb in a shopping centre, resulting in the deaths of children? The IRA did just that on March 20, 1993 when they bombed a shopping centre in Warrington resulting in the deaths of 12 year-old Tim Parry and 3 year-old Johnathan Ball.

Did the gardai ever leave a bomb on a street such as that done by loyalist terrorists in Dublin and Monaghan in 1974 resulting in the deaths of 34 innocent civilians?

No and no.

I could go on all day reminding people about atrocities committed by republican/loyalist terrorists. It simply appears to me that Deathtobertie, Might_mouse, etc have a lot to learn about the IRA. Judging from their style of writing, I'd guess that they're simply too young to understand how evil the IRA/UVF/UDA were considered to be by about 99% of the population in the Republic of Ireland up to just a few years ago.

Mighty_Mouse · 25-02-2004 6:36pm

A little condescending and pretensious dont you think ReefBreak?

"was not authorised by...". = " not commissioned by" very similar.

If someone undertook an action which was not authorised by the IRA well then, yes IMO the cease fire stands. And the same if an unauthorised person with an IRA rifle ran around belfast (as someone stated earlier) yes well then the ceasefire stands.

I think in fairness the IRA have been shown to be committed to the Peace Process and have been proven genuine in all their commitments.

There has been very little "un authorised" activity by the IRA as it is one organisation that has a severe disiplinary record!.

It just amazes me that everytime the Peace Process gets near a point where democracy is impending, some amazing "development" undermining republican commitments arises.

Ill treat this the same as the Stormont raids and the Castle rea break ins ......with a pich of salt.

Reefbreak - you can keep quoting attrocities commited by the IRA but for each one theres 5 more on the other side. Its a pointless excercise.
At the moment whether you like it or not, Sinn Fein are the leading republican party in the North and so have to be involved in the Peace Process.

Same for the DUP

ReefBreak · 25-02-2004 6:44pm

A little condescending and pretensious dont you think ReefBreak?

Why? Because I'm reminding you of what the IRA are really like?

Reefbreak - you can keep quoting attrocities commited by the IRA but for each one theres 5 more on the other side. Its a pointless excercise.

Wrong. I don't see a difference between "either side". Terrorist scum are terrorist scum, regardless of what side they're on. Besides, your comment about "5 more on the other side" is simply incorrect. Betweem 1969 and 1994, loyalists had murdered 818 civilians with no links to paramilitary organisations, republicans had murdered 704 civilians with no links to paramilitary organisations. You should learn your history before you decide to support an evil terrorist organisation like the IRA/UDA.

ReefBreak · 25-02-2004 6:50pm

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
There has been very little "un authorised" activity by the IRA as it is one organisation that has a severe disiplinary record!.

Such as a bullet in the head; or being tortured by immersion in a bath of boiling water; or being burned with hot irons; or hung up on a meat hook and beaten to death.

Single mother of ten children Jean McConville found out about the IRA's "severe disciplinary record". Who was the head of the IRA in Belfast at the time of her abduction?

sceptre · 25-02-2004 7:32pm

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
"was not authorised by...". = " not commissioned by" very similar.

Not similar enough to pretend that they're the same thing. It's the difference between allowing and requesting.

There has been very little "un authorised" activity by the IRA as it is one organisation that has a severe disiplinary record!.

Granted. Very little is not the same as none. In other words, short of some new information (which presumably the police may investigate) you don't really know that they didn't in this case though do you? I certainly don't know that they did but then I've not made any pronouncements about Friday night.

Johnny 5 · 25-02-2004 7:37pm

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Who was the head of the IRA in Belfast at the time of her abduction?

Good question, I expect you'll post the answer with some hard evidence in your next posting.

Anyone catch UTV Live this evening? Showed the parents of 3 UVF murder victims being interviewed as to their frustrations at why the PUP were not expelled or investigated on by the governments. Incase you don't know, the PUP are the political wing of the UVF, who continue to murder, drug deal, pipe bomb and extort.

One of them asked why they aren't referred to as PUP UVF?

Is it that no one on this thread has twigged that the IRA membership charges brought upon these men when they were arrested were actually dropped?

bonkey · 25-02-2004 7:42pm

Originally posted by sceptre
In other words, short of some new information (which presumably the police may investigate) you don't really know that they didn't in this case though do you?

That would be an assumption of guilty till proven innocent.....

Which I believe is teh point MM is driving at. The facts are not known, but so many people quick to jump on the "the IRA must be guilty" bandwagon.

As Reef points out, there is no shortage of accepted or proven guilt there to make a strong case.....there's no need to go making assumptions on top of it.

At the end of the day, though, saying that the IRA should disband because they are terrorists is no different to saying that criminals shouldn't commit crime - it has no bearing on the reasons why they are already terrorists or criminals respectively.

Short of every terrorist in each organisation - republican and unionist - waking up one morning and saying "Terrorism is wrong, I should stop", this is not a convincing reason for them to disband. It is a reason why we think they shouldn't be there, but it is not a reason for them.

So, rather than just discussing if you think the IRA should disband from your own point of view, shouldn't we be discussing "what reasons could you give the IRA as to why they should disband".

Telling them they're scummy terrorists pales at that point. If it didn't, they'd already have disbanded, neh?

jc

sceptre · 25-02-2004 8:03pm

Originally posted by bonkey
That would be an assumption of guilty till proven innocent.....

Fair enough. It wasn't where I was trying to go to be honest but I'll drop that bit as I'd probably put it just as badly the second time around.

Gearoid · 25-02-2004 8:06pm

Good point Bonkey, they wouldn't be doing what they are doing if they thought the way others would have them think.

PyjamaMan · 25-02-2004 8:22pm

to think that the disbanding of the IRA would lead to peace is naive in my opinion.

With any decommisioning acts made by the IRA, the Paisley'ites have dismissed these as not being enough.
If the IRA was to announce that it is to disband, again i think "this is not enough" would be used as an excuse not to share power.

I want peace mind you, I have had my fair share of family and freinds killed during the troubles

, but this is going to take a long, long time, as pain runs deep. So to say that its time for the IRA or all of the terrorist grps to disband will be the solution, is an invalid argument.

AmenToThat · 26-02-2004 12:44am

Originally posted by ReefBreak

As if any normal person (i.e. one that doesn't vote for Sinn Féin

I know lots of "normal" law abiding people who voted Sinn Fein last time around and I would say that their views are just as relevent as yours and deserve as much consideration as the views of any other members of society.

dloob · 26-02-2004 1:11am

Ohh the shinners are smart.
Any time something comes up in the comunity that can win votes they are there.
Be it bin charges or dog wardens.
What ever is popular they are stuck in the middle.

What I hate the most is in the elections like when that crook won in kerry whats his face the gun runner,
they wave our flag in our faces as if it was exclusive to them.
Thanks for letting me live in your county lads.
But if you do ever come to power I'm on the first plane out.
At least our current set of crooks aren't murders.

AmenToThat · 26-02-2004 1:39am

Originally posted by dloob
Ohh the shinners are smart.
Any time something comes up in the comunity that can win votes they are there.
Be it bin charges or dog wardens.
What ever is popular they are stuck in the middle.

What I hate the most is in the elections like when that crook won in kerry whats his face the gun runner,
they wave our flag in our faces as if it was exclusive to them.
Thanks for letting me live in your county lads.
But if you do ever come to power I'm on the first plane out.
At least our current set of crooks aren't murders.

So what would be your solution?

Exclude Sinn Fein from elections?
Dispand the party?

dloob · 26-02-2004 2:33am

So what would be your solution?

Maybe treatment for the members.
Anti brainwashing stuff.
It's like a cult think about. Find gulllible people. Make them feel part of your group. Brainwash them in your ways. Send them out to recruit more members and raise money.

Some day Gerry will take them all to heaven on his UFO (thats definitly not a unionist flying object) and in heaven there is a united Ireland and everybody speaks Irish.

It is time for the IRA to disband.

Comments