It is time for the IRA to disband.

monument

Originally posted by sceptre
/All/ punishment beatings are wrong. Monument appears to understand this from his second-last post above, though he chose to post the figures in what seemed to be some kind of defence through blaming someone else more.

I wouldn’t even try to defend such, I’m trying to highlight the fact that one is ignore when the other is being highlighted.

I suppose that I’m in danger of been seen as defend it, but I’m not.

Originally posted by sceptre
/All/ punishment beatings should be stopped. /All/ people who carry out punishment beatings are thugs and common criminals… Nevertheless, all people who carry out these beatings (on either side) are common scum in my opinion.

Totally agreed.

Johnny 5

Well the point I was trying to make was that despite the IRA not being the main culprits for the violence in the North, attention nearly always focuses on them.

What's worse,
A murder, or an alledged 'abduction'.
I fail to see how anyone could argue there isn't a difference between the two.

If Cork doesn't care who carry out the punishment beatings more or less, then why does the focus of his postings always centre on one side?

It's a poor orator who can't defend an action on any basis other than the idea of someone else being even worse. Defend it on its own merits, get back to me and we'll have a grown-up discussion.

I wasn't trying to defend punishment beatings on the basis the loyalists do it more and I don't think I portrayed that in my posts. I do believe however that until the PSNI gets its act together, and Patton is implemented in full (not just a name change and a new uniform), there will always be republican elements using that as an excuse to carry out their own style of 'street justice'. While I don't condone punishment beatings (and on the record, SF don't either), like I said in an earlier post, i'm not sympathetic when I hear a drug dealer has been 'done in the ankles'.

That's the reality of life in Nationalist areas of the North, the IRA act as judge, jury and executioner. I wish it were different but it ain't.

I suspect a number of Irish people are more appalled at Republican beatings on the basis that these people maintain that they carry out their actions through a mandate (that question I never got a proper answer to) from the Irish people.

No, the IRA don't have a mandate, but SF do. They are a democratically elected party with representatives in Dublin, Westminster and the former Stormont government. A mandate is an expectation from the public that these representatives will act on their behalf, and by ignoring that mandate, your ignoring a large section of the population. The IRA don't act on the same mandate. 28% of Irish Nationalists in the North didn't vote to give the IRA the thumbs up to carry on the beatings, neither did 120,000 Irish Nationalists in the South.

Cork

30 years of violence solved nothing. I think groups like the IRA, UDA, UFF etc have a responsibillity to disband. These groups are part of the problem.

Their continued existance is an insult to those who votedfor the Good Friday Agreement.

Villain

Originally posted by Cork
30 years of violence solved nothing. I think groups like the IRA, UDA, UFF etc have a responsibillity to disband. These groups are part of the problem.

Their continued existance is an insult to those who votedfor the Good Friday Agreement.

Avoiding all questions by stating the obvious, easy know you support FF:D

Zombrex

Originally posted by monument
I wouldn’t even try to defend such, I’m trying to highlight the fact that one is ignore when the other is being highlighted.

Originally posted by monument
I don’t condone any beatings, I also don’t condone one-sidedness.

Have you noticed the title of the thread - Time for the IRA to dispand - this disscussion is about the IRA

The vast majority of people reading this are Irish Catholics, the people the IRA claim to represent and fight for. Very few people reading this would have any relation to loyalist groups. It is not unreasonable to have a discussion about the IRA without even mentioning loyalist groups.

This is not a "one-sided" discussion. That is not what one-sided means. If everyone was either singing the praises of the IRA or saying how evil they are, then it would be one-sided. But it is not at all necessary to discuss other terrorist groups every time we talk about the IRA. The point the discussion is the IRA, and their actions stand on their own, without need for comparision to loyalist (unless you are trying to justify the IRA actions, which you say you are not).

monument

Originally posted by Wicknight
Have you noticed the title of the thread - Time for the IRA to dispand - this disscussion is about the IRA

I’m sure the mods will correct me if I go off topic, or you can report me if you wish.

Originally posted by Wicknight
It is not unreasonable to have a discussion about the IRA without even mentioning loyalist groups.

That's like saying it is ok to talk about Al Queda with out talking about the US, or it’s like talking about any war or conflict, or any side from such, with out talking about all sides.

It’s not unreasonable, that is, it’s not unreasonable if you’re someone who is compliably biased for one reason or another.

Originally posted by Wicknight
This is not a "one-sided" discussion.

Did I say it was a one-sided discussion? I’m sorry if I did. Although I thought I had just said some people’s comments were one-sided.

Originally posted by Wicknight
That is not what one-sided means.

I’m sure you mean that’s not what a “one-sided discussion” means - because that is not what I meant to say.

Originally posted by Wicknight
But it is not at all necessary to discuss other terrorist groups every time we talk about the IRA. The point the discussion is the IRA, and their actions stand on their own, without need for comparision to loyalist (unless you are trying to justify the IRA actions, which you say you are not).

No it’s not necessary to talk about every paramilitary group in the world, but when talking about an important topic it is vital to talk – or allow talk - about all relevant factors.

Originally posted by Wicknight
(unless you are trying to justify the IRA actions, which you say you are not).

No, I’m not; I’m trying to have a fair discuss.

Although some people like to highlight one, and their actions, and then – or previously – ignore or less highlight the other and their actions.

By wanting an isolated discussion are you trying to justify or ignore actions by others, or are do you just want to highlight the IRA?

gurramok

Originally posted by Wicknight
The vast majority of people reading this are Irish Catholics, the people the IRA claim to represent and fight for.

they should really claim to be fighting for irish people up north whether phoney or not, we down south are supposed to be free already

Originally posted by sceptre
/All/ punishment beatings are wrong.

/offtopic-
I'd wish some of those 'punishment beatings' were carried out on the scumbags in dublin, a few people i know would be glad of vigilante action no matter who carried them out.
Some boardsters reactions on skanger\scumbag threads would raise eyebrows:)

Mighty_Mouse

To those who repeatedly argue that the 30 years of voilence achieved nothing. The vast majority of Irish Republicans are of a different opinion.

There would'nt be a peace process in northern Ireland without the IRA. What I mean is that there wouldnt be any movement on human rights issues for catholics without the IRA campaign.

Its a very similar process to what happend in South Africa. As Nelson Mandela said himself. The actions taken by Gandi can only work when the oppressor respects the right of the oppressed to protest but what can peaceful demonstrations achieve when the oppresser ignores or crushes with an Iron fist such protests. Then it becomes necessary to meet force with force.

BuffyBot

There would'nt be a peace process in northern Ireland without the IRA.

And there only so much gratitude they can milk from that. I think to most people, it's become quite old.

shotamoose

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
There would'nt be a peace process in northern Ireland without the IRA.

And there wouldn't be any cure without the disease.

Mighty_Mouse

Its not a chicken and egg argument. Turning it into one shows a great misunderstanding of Northern Irelands history and politics.

ishmael whale

Would a possible way forward be to follow Gerry Adams' example. There's no need for the IRA to formally disband, we'll just all agree that it was a figment of our imaginations and never existed.

Mighty_Mouse

an organisation with no future. Republicans accept this. They accept that the armed struggle is over.

Issues like punishment beatings continue to be raised. How can punishment beatings stop when effectively the RUC is still in existance and very little demilitarisation has been undertaken. At the moment we have the head of the PSNI making unfounded , political allegations against republicans in NI. Its one thing for a politician to do it but for a neutral police man to be come invloved.. !!!! Its scandalous!

The "need" for nationalists to police their own areas needs to be taken away. for punishment beatings to stop and this can only be done through Patten etc.

The question here is " is it time for the IRA to disband" . Nationalists would have prefered if the need for the IRA never existed in the first place. The IRA will only "officially disband" when the environment is right for them to do so and that certainly isnt at the time when the british government is calling all the shots in NI.

Cork

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse


The question here is " is it time for the IRA to disband" . Nationalists would have prefered if the need for the IRA never existed in the first place. The IRA will only "officially disband" when the environment is right for them to do so and that certainly isnt at the time when the british government is calling all the shots in NI.

The environment is right. It was right since the Good Friday was passed.

SF/IRA are still in control of areas. They still have their little rackets - of course they don't want to give it up.

The facts are the IRA is part of the problem. It cannot continue to exist - running atound with their baseball bats and holding on to their weapons.

gurramok

running atound with their baseball bats and holding on to their weapons.

Don't forget fertiliser

mneylon

Originally posted by Cork
The environment is right. It was right since the Good Friday was passed.

SF/IRA are still in control of areas. They still have their little rackets - of course they don't want to give it up.

The facts are the IRA is part of the problem. It cannot continue to exist - running atound with their baseball bats and holding on to their weapons.

What grounds are there to say that? "The environment is right" for what? For whom?
If there was no conflict, fair and representative policing, some hope of power sharing and total disarmament of the loyalist/unionists and the various state organs that support them the IRA would cease to exist as they would have no raison d'etre. As things stand the IRA are on ceasfire - that should be more than enough for you or anybody else when you take into consideration the current state of affairs.

Cork

Originally posted by blacknight
What grounds are there to say that? "The environment is right" for what? For whom?
If there was no conflict, fair and representative policing, some hope of power sharing and total disarmament of the loyalist/unionists and the various state organs that support them the IRA would cease to exist as they would have no raison d'etre. As things stand the IRA are on ceasfire - that should be more than enough for you or anybody else when you take into consideration the current state of affairs.

Blame policing and blame unionists. But SF/IRA are (+ were for the last 30 years) part of the problem.

IRA would cease to exist only for the money they get from their various rackets.

Are you maintaining the IRA has ceased recruiting?

The SDLP have no problem with policing but SF have, which is no surprise.

The one thing SF has not a problem with is calling for the early release of those who were involved in killing Jerry McCabe & its continued links to the IRA.

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
Blame policing and blame unionists. But SF/IRA are (+ were for the last 30 years) part of the problem.

Yes, exactly. So why is the time right now for them to disband, when it clearly hasn't been for the last 30 years?

Look, you're arguing from the Mr. Mackey point of view of "doing bad stuff is wrong, m'kay". Of course everyone agrees in principle that the world would be a better place without terrorists, just as it would be without petty criminals, corrupt governments, man-made suffering of all types, and so on.

"The environment is right".......boll0x it is, until you can explain what has changed that explains why the environment is now right, when it wasn't right (say) 5 years ago.

jc

Cork

With the passing of the good Friday Agreement, the replacement of the RUC by the PSNI and the release of IRA prisoners - the time has been right for years for the IRA to disband.

The IRA are still recruiting, still engaged in punishment beatings and still involved in their rackets.

Bonkey, the point that I was making was of need - there is a need for the IRA to disband. Political Institutions & thrust in Northern Ireland need to be built.

The continued existance of private illegal armies won't build trust in devided communitys.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
the point that I was making was of need - there is a need for the IRA to disband.

truism:
Main Entry: tru·ism
Pronunciation: 'trü-"i-z&m
Function: noun
: an undoubted or self-evident truth; especially : one too obvious for mention

mneylon

Originally posted by Cork
With the passing of the good Friday Agreement, the replacement of the RUC by the PSNI and the release of IRA prisoners - the time has been right for years for the IRA to disband.

That's a rather naive statement. If the GFA was respected by the Unionists and the PSNI were truly representative then the IRA may cease to exist.
You also seem to have difficulty differenciating between the IRA and those outside the peace process, such as the RIRA etc.

Originally posted by Cork

The IRA are still recruiting, still engaged in punishment beatings and still involved in their rackets.

Which in the kind of argument that a tabloid reader would use. No offence, but it doesn't hold much water. If PSNI were representative a lot of this would vanish completely

Originally posted by Cork

Bonkey, the point that I was making was of need - there is a need for the IRA to disband. Political Institutions & thrust in Northern Ireland need to be built.

We can all agree on that one.

Originally posted by Cork

The continued existance of private illegal armies won't build trust in devided communitys.

Neither will the continued intransigiency of the likes of Trimble.. but you seem to have ignored that. I wonder why.

Originally posted by Cork

The SDLP have no problem with policing but SF have, which is no surprise

Of course it isn't a surprise. The SDLP are not a Republican party.

Originally posted by Cork

Blame policing and blame unionists. But SF/IRA are (+ were for the last 30 years) part of the problem.

I totally disagree. Do you even know why the IRA came back into existence?
Do you honestly believe that there would be any agreement in place if it had not been for the last 30 years?
Would you prefer that everything went back to the way it was pre-1968 where the North was ruled along the same lines as South Africa under Apartheid?

Cork

Originally posted by blacknight
The SDLP are not a Republican party.

I totally disagree. Do you even know why the IRA came back into existence?
Do you honestly believe that there would be any agreement in place if it had not been for the last 30 years?

Agreement would have happened sooner. Did the Welsh or scots use bullets and bombs for their regional assemblys?

Politics created the good Friday Agreement. 30 years of violence deepened mistrust amongst both communitys.

Now that SF accept the principle of consent - the Furture of Northern Ireland is up the people who live there.

mneylon

Originally posted by Cork
Agreement would have happened sooner. Did the Welsh or scots use bullets and bombs for their regional assemblys?

You should really try comparing like with like. It might be an interesting and educational exercise for you.
I would strongly recommend you go off and inform yourself a bit better, as your arguments are illogical, misinformed and quite naive.

Originally posted by Cork

Politics created the good Friday Agreement. 30 years of violence deepened mistrust amongst both communitys.

See above

Originally posted by Cork

Now that SF accept the principle of consent - the Furture of Northern Ireland is up the people who live there.

I'm not going to argue about that one. Would you mind telling the Unionists?

Cork

It is very easy to get into tribal politics in Northern Ireland. The SDLP see the bigger picture. Other parties often see problems thru orange or green glasses.

The assembly needs to made operational again to solve cross community problems.

SF must face up to the fact that IRA weapons are part of the problem.

mneylon

Originally posted by Cork
The assembly needs to made operational again to solve cross community problems.

Agreed, but without SF it is meaningless.

gurramok

It is very easy to get into tribal politics in Northern Ireland. The SDLP see the bigger picture. Other parties often see problems thru orange or green glasses.

Inaccurate.
SDLP are a nationalist party whose votes by and large come from the 'green' section of the community as you put it.

Zombrex

Originally posted by blacknight

Neither will the continued intransigiency of the likes of Trimble.. but you seem to have ignored that. I wonder why.

Maybe he didn't mention Trimble because this is a thread about the IRA :rolleyes:

Originally posted by blacknight

Do you honestly believe that there would be any agreement in place if it had not been for the last 30 years?
Would you prefer that everything went back to the way it was pre-1968 where the North was ruled along the same lines as South Africa under Apartheid?

Don't be stupid ... the IRA didn't nothing to bring forth better civil rights in N.I. If anything they set back the civil rights movement years, as it gave the British government and the Unionist an excuse to drag their feet and threat all Catholics as terrorits.

And even if the IRA forced the British to the table (which I don't think they did), it would be a horrific and disgracefull way to go about it. Killing innocent people in an effort to terrorise a country is something no one should support or be proud of.

And BTW the North was never anything like South Africa.

Mighty_Mouse

If anything they set back the civil rights movement years, as it gave the British government and the Unionist an excuse to drag their feet and threat all Catholics as terrorist

Even if you write it in bold its still not right! I just can’t fathom why anyone would believe that the British and Unionists ever needed an excuse to drag their feet on civil rights. 800 years etc.

I mean the argument that the Unionists would of had an epiphany and realised that treating Catholics like dirt with no rights is not on. " Lets have em share an democracy where everyone is entitled to be represented in our lovely British community."" I mean com'on. It’s ridiculous.

(Almost as ridiculous as stating that the IRA needs to disband so as not to give the unionists "any more excuses" for not participating in a government!!)

As for the British government! They would of suddenly realised that the human rights issues needed to be addressed in the north!!!

:eek:

I can just imagine Maggie sitting there now. Those rabbit-like-breeding-Catholic-savages have been very civilised not to resort to violence. Lets reward them with equal job opportunities, democratic representation and a representative police force!!!!!!!

Wake up.

And to say:

And BTW the North was never anything like South Africa.

How can you come to this conclusion? The only difference I can think of is the skin colour of the oppressed.

The Brigadier

You obviously have never spoken to any former prisoners of Robben Island

Atreides

Originally posted by James Melody
You obviously have never spoken to any former prisoners of Robben Island

Have you?