Bi-wiring and Bi-amping

derrie

Can anyone explain the advantages of biwiring hi-fi speakers?

The way I look at it is that if you bi-wire a hi-fi speaker you are simply increasing the current carrying capability of the interconnect and not really cleaning up the signal path as the speaker cabinet will still contain band-pass filters to protect the drivers. so you might as well just connect a thicker cable instead.

I can understand bi-amping using active crossovers as you keep the high-level signal path clean by connecting the speaker driver directly to the amp.

Just something that's been buggin me

ZENER

I was going to try to explain it but the site below does it much better !

Bi Wiring Loudspeakers

Cheers

Tinky

Korg

I stole 1/2 an hour of a friends life before to blind test me on my old tannoy 611's, couldn't hear a difference. I'm no 'Golden Ears', but resonably particular nonetheless. Tried again with newer b&w's, still nothing. Theres a lot of stuff that makes a difference to the sound of a good hifi all right, but there's an equal amount of myths out there (that many a manufacturer charge a fortune for). Bi-wiring may be one of those myths, i think it is.

Nevertheless, many extreme audiophiles will say they percieve a difference, & maybe they do. The more you listen to a good set of speakers the more you train your ears. It probably takes an expensive hifi to hear the difference, if it exists.

daveg

I have biwired my mission 773E floorstanders. I found a big difference.

Biwiring - feed 2 sets of cables from your amp to each speaker.

Biamping - isn't that feeding 2 sets of cables from 2 amps to 1 set of speakers?

BTW you will need double binding posts (4 inputs) on your speaker to bi-wire.

derrie

Tinky - That website was great - basically concluded that there was a very small frequency response difference between the two but it would be inaudiable. and if it were, the question of it it was better would be down to personal preference!

I think I'll stick to my theory that bi wiring just increases the current carrying capability of the signal path, so using a thicker cable (all mine are 2.5mm OFC) will have the same effect by avoiding audiable compression due to thin cables.

I did a blind test on it as well using my Heybrook floorstanders and couldn't hear a difference - I'm a pro sound engineer!

Thanks all

Kali

Not convinced about bi-wiring myself.. whatever about bi-amping and driving the different parts of the speaker with seperate amps suited for the different drivers (or if a single amp hasn't enough power) .. bi-wiring doesn't make any sense to me, and after hearing engineers at PMC disregard it, I'd be skeptical of any benefits apart from pre-concieved placebo effects (if you think it should sound better it will.. which is rampant when it comes to audiophile listening).

robbie1876

The only worthwhile bi-amping system I've heard is Linn's Aktiv system. Traditionally, bi-amping your speakers means putting an amp on the tweeter and an amp on the bass woofer. But both amps are still having to process the full range of frequencies - i.e. the amp that is driving the tweeter is wasting most of its power dealing with bass frequencies, which won't be heard through the tweeter.

Linn's solution is to move the crossover from the speaker to the amps, so that the signal gets split into bass and treble before it gets to the main power amplifier block. The result is that both power amps working in a bi-amp system are working much more efficiently, and the results are simply stunning, even on Linn's entry level speaker setups.

Check out Linn's site for more details on Linn Aktiv systems.

Other than doing it Linn's way, personally I don't think bi-amping is worth the effort. Bi-wiring should be done as a standard practice on all speakers though.

Robbie

ZENER

I'd have to disagree with you robbie1876, I've always been scepticle of the practice of bi-wiring speakers to be honest. I understand the technical theory behind it but in practice there are very few joe soaps who would notice as has been seen here.

Bi or multi-amping, however, has a lot of benefits to recommend it. It's well known that diferent amps excel at different parts of the audio spectrum, you only have to read audiophile mags to see the frequency curves to discover that. Tailoring each amp for it's designated speaker may be as simple as turning down the Bass control for the tweeter driver etc. There comes a time though when you have to decide though - are you listening to the music or the sound. In my opinion if you are listening to the sound (equipment) then you are missing the whole point of hi-fi which is to be faithful to the original sound the artist has intended.

Tinky

iwb

Great discussion. If any of you are interested, there is a home grown forum at where issues like this are discussed all the time.
For my part, I have bi amped with an active crossover, like the linn mentioned above. I found it to be an improvement and was a great learning experience. I would liket to tri amp one of these days if I get the time and space to do it.

[NOTE] IWB - I have removed the link to the website and its forum as the Founder of that forum has been banned from Boards.ie. I have pm'd you with some more info as to the reasons why I feel it necessary to edit out your link, its a great pity really but I am sure you will understand why!

Vex...
[/end NOTE]

robbie1876

There comes a time though when you have to decide though - are you listening to the music or the sound. In my opinion if you are listening to the sound (equipment) then you are missing the whole point of hi-fi which is to be faithful to the original sound the artist has intended.

Very good point, tinky. I had an installation not so long ago involving the following equipment:

Monitor Audio Gold 60 speakers
1 x Linn AV5125 power amp (5 channel amp, but was set up in a bi-amp situation with 4 x 200w)

As the speakers were tri-wirable, a decision had to be made whether to use one amp on bass, the other on treble+mid, or use one amp on treble, the other on bass+mid etc.

After spending countless hours 'listening to the equipment' as tinky described above, we decided to bring in another stereo amp and tri-amp the system, because it sounded good but not exceptional. Another couple of hours passed trying out various configurations with the 3rd amp, and although the sound was excellent, we were still listening to the equipment and not the music.

Eventually we hit on a configuration that worked and the system came alive before us. Instantly we were drawn in by the music and just sat there for about 30 minutes listening, completely forgetting about the technicalities of it all.

The moral is that I believe that if you are listening to the sound and not the music, your system is not right. Experiment with the setup again. In this system I described, the level of emotion in the music jumped to spine-tingling proportions once we got it right.

Tinky, regarding the bi-wire issue, you are right - most people (including me) find it hard to notice the subtle difference, especially on average speakers. Dynaudio, Danish makers of some of the best speakers I've ever heard, deliberately make their speakers single-wire only. Even the 3-way models. Really what I meant by 'standard practice' is that once the proper bi-wire speaker cable has been installed, upgrading to bi-amping is a cinch (and a temptation).

Robbie

ZENER

Sorry robbie I misunderstood your post about the bi-wiring thing.:)

Can anyone here honestly hand-on-heart say they can notice the difference between a 2.5mm OFC and standard 2.5mm mains cable? Be honest now guys can you really tell the difference or are you suffering from the "I paid lots of dosh for this so it must be better" syndrome ? Has anyone done a blind test on this ? I used both but could not tell the difference though it was not a blind test.

I've been in houses where the host talks endlessly about the benefits of Oxygen Free cables insisting I must be mad that I cant notice the difference, but has the cheapest possible interconnects connecting their cd player to the amp, usually the one that came with the player !!!!

Tinky

Korg

Maybe there should be a poll on this bi-wiring thing! I've tried twice before, as above. When i bought my new b&w cm6's recently i initially connected them up with tinky's normal domestic standard 2.5 twin/earth i'd used to wire up my old speakers. Had a listen for a few days until the speaker cable i ordered (qed silver, nothing extravigant but audiophile cable nonetheless) came in. Much as i hate to say it, the qed cable for me was effectivley a waste of money! I bought enough to wire up all 5 speakers, so i tried bi-wiring the front pair. No percievable difference to me. Ok that's not very scientific, but not instantly dismissable either.

There's a lot of this (borrowed from cloney's forum) which supports you tinky.

I reckon the money's better spent on better speakers/amp, there's not one pair of speakers out there that sounds identical to another manufacturers offering, same can be said of amplifiers to a lesser degree. Spend 300 extra on the speakers (or amp) brings better value than spending 300 on cable. 2.5 twin/earth is resonably cheap!

Ususal disclaimer though: my ears are in no way exceptional, many with 20-20 hearing will resolve & appreciate differences the rest of us can't.

ZENER

There's a lot of this (borrowed from cloney's forum) which supports you tinky.

LOL - very good !

I dont claim to be an "audiophile" but I can tell the difference between good and bad sound and the affects that the speaker cable has on this i.e. little or none ! People constantly recommend products to each other proclaiming them to be the best or to have excellent sound quality. In my opinion the "sound " that you prefer is totally a personal thing and depends mainly on the music you listen to !

Spending hundreds or even thousands of quid on a very high quality amp and speakers is all well and good but the mortal sin, in my opinion, is to connect the whole lot up with bell wire or alarm cable and use interconnects that come supplied with equipment. There is something to be said for good quality gold plated interconnects between components in that corrosion etc is kept to a minimum plus the signal levels involved are much smaller and more sensitive to capacitive and inductive effects of the cable plus any interferance from nearby equipment - TV's for example.

Anyone else have any ideas on this ?

Tinky

robbie1876

tinky, I put my hands up! I can't hear the difference between 2.5 mains cable and OFC speaker cable on low-mid range systems. But on higher end systems (€5k plus) you can sometimes hear it. The differences can be small, but important. Whether they are worth spending several hundred Euro on is a personal choice.

On lower end systems I find you are more likely to hear a difference with a good interconnect from CD to amp. Also, a good mains cables can make a noticible difference, depending on the type of amp you use.

Korg, there are a couple of possible reasons why you couldn't hear the difference with your bi-wiring test. Speakers and cables alike have a burn-in period, after which they will perform to their proper specifications. If you listened during the burn-in period, you might not have heard the true tonal sound of your system.

Also, it is important to know what to listen for. Bi-wiring does not give you more bass or treble, but helps slightly to de-clutter the critical midrange frequencies. Listening to a simple, well-recorded track with a single, emotional voice or instrument is the best way to hear the difference. You are listening for more emotion in the music rather than more bass or treble.

Hope that makes sense!

Robbie

Korg

If you listened during the burn-in period, you might not have heard the true tonal sound of your system

True, i tried when the speakers were new. Plus the 2.5 twin&earth had 10 years of burn in time, the qed cable was new. Now that the speakers have warmed up i'll steal an hour of someone's life & try again.

Buzz_Irl

OK - Gr8 thread -really enjoyed reading it and learned loads.

I'm new to all this but am putting in the following system (if it's a waste of hard earned money - let me down gently !);
Pioneer PDP434 HDE/Pioneer Vsx-Ax5i/Pioneer DVD 868/KHT 2005.2.

It looks like I should just go with standard speaker cable - but what is that?

Thks
Buzz

Originally posted by daveg
I have biwired my mission 773E floorstanders. I found a big difference.

Biwiring - feed 2 sets of cables from your amp to each speaker.

Biamping - isn't that feeding 2 sets of cables from 2 amps to 1 set of speakers?

BTW you will need double binding posts (4 inputs) on your speaker to bi-wire.

I've done the same and there is a big difference.
Much Better

derrie

Earthman - when you say there is a big difference - did you do a blind test or just bi wire both and say there is a difference? So far I've yet to encounter anyone who can pick out a bi wire speaker in a blind test!!!

dee mm

Have to say bi-wiring is a bit of a questionable idea. Bi-amping is far more clear cut, if using a properly setup crossover. I have a pair of Heybrook Hb4's and there is a slight difference when they were bi-wired. But to be honest, if you feel like buying a bit more wire, why the hell not!:)

ZENER

But to be honest, if you feel like buying a bit more wire, why the hell not!

Indeed . . why not ! But I refer you to my point about listening to the music or the equipment. Of course, if it makes you feel better and more relaxed about your setup to the point where you listen to the music then fine.

@ Robbie: I take it you install equipment to earn a crust, can I ask at what level ? Do you supply for the domestic market or studio/gig setups ?

Tinky

Whyner

/kicks this thread back into life

I just bought a Denon DM37 DAB Mini-system and a set of Monitor Audio BR2's.

Could someone please suggest the best way to wire the speakers up. Has the bi-wire debate come to any conclusion?

Cheers...

iwb

Can you elaborate on the equipment? I don't have this setup myself and am not familiar, so if you can say what configurations are possible, I would be happy to comment.

Whyner

iwb wrote: »

Can you elaborate on the equipment? I don't have this setup myself and am not familiar, so if you can say what configurations are possible, I would be happy to comment.

That's all I've got. Need to buy the cables.

http://whathifi.com/Review/Denon-D-M37DAB/

AND

http://www.monitoraudio.co.uk/product.php?range=8&product=56

Cheers

Idleater

You only have one set of binding posts per speaker output on the amp, so you won't be able to benefit from biamping and I can't tell if you have two sets of binding posts on each speaker for biwiring.

Whyner

nereid wrote: »

You only have one set of binding posts per speaker output on the amp, so you won't be able to benefit from biamping and I can't tell if you have two sets of binding posts on each speaker for biwiring.

Hiya nereid,

Thanks for the reply. The speakers do have 2 sets of binding posts per speaker.

I was going to bi-wire them like the second diagram in this link:

http://www.brilliancehifi.co.uk/how-to-bi-wire-speakers.htm

So, would you bi-wire this system and what quality cable would you go with?

Nice one...

Idleater

Cool

In that case, if you want to bi-wire the setup, I would get four runs of the same speaker cable, (or two runs of bi-wire cable).

Many places have 79 strand oxygen free copper speaker cable probably starting from €1 per meter depending on where you go.

you could go mad and get some very expensive cabling, but I don't think you would notice it with the amp or speakers.

L.