Ryanair 'r' scum

Victor

"Passengers may also have to take their luggage on board to save handling costs." -- I wonder if this will apply to granny?

http://home.eircom.net/content/unison/national/2604334?view=Eircomnet

It doesn't come cheap . . . €3,000 bill to train as a Ryanair stewardess
From:The Irish Independent
Tuesday, 24th February, 2004
Helen Bruce

BUDGET airline Ryanair is running yet another cost-cutting operation - charging its cabin crew up to €3,000 for their training.

It emerged yesterday that would-be Ryanair cabin crew from Ireland have to travel to Britain and pay several thousand euro just to get started.

Budding stewards and stewardesses have to foot a bill of €2,228 for training, plus accommodation and other bills, as well as paying €30 a month to cover the cost and maintenance of their uniforms.

The cost of training has outraged candidates. Other airlines, including Aer Lingus and British Airways, do not charge for training, and stress their commitment to investing in staff.

Ryanair said it had to cover the cost of outsourcing the training to a specialised company.

The airline, which carried 21 million passengers last year, is relentlessly cutting costs wherever possible. Last week it was announced that in-flight "luxuries" - such as reclining seats, window blinds and headrests - will be phased out to pass savings on to customers. Passengers may also have to take their luggage on board to save handling costs.

"In Ireland there are no specialised aviation training companies, but we are currently looking at outsourcing our cabin crew training here," a Ryanair spokeswoman said.

She said the UK trainees were guaranteed a job with Ryanair, which would earn them up to €38,000 a year, as well as an opportunity to join the airline's share option scheme.

A British student attacked Ryanair yesterday for the charges it demanded she pay to train, which amounted to over £2,000.

Lauren Kirk (19) received an e-mail telling her she had secured an interview, and detailing the costs involved. The four to five-week training course cost £1,500, plus accommodation. A B&B was around £25 a night, making an accommodation bill of at least £500.

Trainees were also told to bring £50 to pay for a medical examination and a £65 registration fee for a "learning pack and test". Unsuccessful applicants would not receive a refund for the course fees.

Ms Kirk said: "I was really, really shocked because I have never heard anything like this before. Why would you want to work for Ryanair when you can work for another airline which isn't charging you to join them?"

Imposter

Originally posted by Victor
"Passengers may also have to take their luggage on board to save handling costs."

I can't see that ever happening as the majority of passengers still have big cases with them and there isn't a hope in hell that they can be safely stored on board for all passengers.

BuffyBot

I think the problem is that Ryanair train the people (the training is expensive!) and then lose them to other airlines (such a Virgin Atlantic, a virtual home for ex-Ryanair staff). Charging for the training seems a bit extreme, asking potential staff to pay it back over time would seem to make more sense.

Johnny Versace

Originally posted by BuffyBot
Charging for the training seems a bit extreme, asking potential staff to pay it back over time would seem to make more sense.

I think that would make more sense.

ALTHOUGH, no one is forcing these people to go work for Ryanair. If they don't want to pay the training expenses, just don't apply for a job there...

midget lord

I find all this ryan air bashing fecking infuriating. What you prefer? To go back to paying £350 to aer lingus to fly to london. Saying that your gran may have to carry her bags onto the plane is an extreme in the extreme, firstly grannies wont be going on the plane because of deep vein thrombosis, secondly if granny is lucky to escape the former then im sure some young man will carry it on for her, or maybe even ryan air staff.

Hyzepher

I still find it funny that some people get on a Dublin Bus in somewhere like Bray and travel to the City Centre - taking up to 1 hour journey time - with no complaints, food, reclining seats, toilet etc. Yet jump on a plane from Dublin to Birmingham - journey time 30mins and expect hot food, cabin comforts, alcohol, duty free etc without paying - madness

Hyzepher

WhiteWashMan

Victor, i would appreciate it if you are going to slander a company, that you at least offer up some sort of proof, rather than an opinion based on your dislike of their business practises.

as other people have said, if you dont like it, fly with a more expensive carrier.

also, not sure if this applies to work, more to something businessy or economicy....

G

Good post Victor. This isn't 'Ryanair bashing' at all. When their cost cutting generates bad press it has a negative effect in the end, e.g. that wheelchair guy in the UK, lots of bad press. Flew with mytravelite.com recently, I usually stick to what I know (Aer Lingus, Ryanair) but these guys were cheaper and their service was better.

G

wheelchair guy story

damnyanks

Originally posted by Hyzepher
I still find it funny that some people get on a Dublin Bus in somewhere like Bray and travel to the City Centre - taking up to 1 hour journey time - with no complaints, food, reclining seats, toilet etc. Yet jump on a plane from Dublin to Birmingham - journey time 30mins and expect hot food, cabin comforts, alcohol, duty free etc without paying - madness

Hyzepher

Its 1.25 - 1.65 from Bray to Dublin. You could get the dart which does have a toilet. You can buy your food before hand and eat it on the bus / dart.

A flight to Birmingham is more then 1.25 I'd imagine

uberwolf

only because of tax, at times...

Specky

I've never been on an empty Ryan air flight, but hardly a day goes by when I don't see someone else complaining about the company for one reason or another. This would seem to suggest that either there is a highly vocal minority or that there is a great deal of hypocracy going on.

On short hop flights I find cabin service annoying. There's not enough time to do anything properly so it's just rushed crap. So I prefer Ryan air for that.

Designated seating doesn't matter a penny fart to me on short hop flights. Even on long haul it doesn't make that much difference. A randomly allocated seat in a plane doesn't seem all that much different than sitting where there is a seat available to me...it's like sitting on a bus or a train...whoopdeedoo...

Wheelchair fee...ok, that was a bit odd, but does it make me pay the extra to fly another airline...frankly no.

Charging for uniforms and training...well have a look at Micheal Moore's book, you'll find a section in there that seems to show that low cost commuter airlines in the US do much the same and pay very low salaries to flight crew including pilots.

Loading the plane by passengers...sorry but that just isn't going to happen. However when you look at some of the stuff people carry on as hand luggage you can understand why they might want to be very restrictive on this. It pi$$es me off when I get on a plane with my laptop and can't fit it in the overhead because some selfish git has brought on a huge pull along case, ten bags of duty free, a hand bag a coat and a small portable kitchen sink and crammed it up there above my seat. Just a bit of common sense. If you get on a coach there's no room inside for luggage, it goes in the luggage compartment underneath. Surely people can see that the same should be the case on an airplane.

I am continually perplexed by the allowed useage of electronic equipment on board planes though (this is way off topic)...why is a laptop (probably with a CD-ROM drive) allowed but a CD walkman isn't? Why aren't gameboys allowed when I can quite happily play games on my palmtop? If they have rules and regulations fine, but sensible ones would be nice...

2c over...stop complaining!

zenith

Originally posted by Specky

On short hop flights I find cabin service annoying. There's not enough time to do anything properly so it's just rushed crap. So I prefer Ryan air for that.

This is not in itself a bad thing, though the option to buy a glass of water should be available.

Originally posted by Specky

Wheelchair fee...ok, that was a bit odd, but does it make me pay the extra to fly another airline...frankly no.

You're obviously not a wheelchair user, though. You probably don't use the wheelchair ramps into, say, public buildings - though I assume that you can see that they are a good thing?

Originally posted by Specky

Charging for uniforms and training...well have a look at Micheal Moore's book, you'll find a section in there that seems to show that low cost commuter airlines in the US do much the same and pay very low salaries to flight crew including pilots.

I think Michael Moore's point was this wasn't a very good idea.

Originally posted by Specky

Loading the plane by passengers...sorry but that just isn't going to happen.

I hope you're right.

dahamsta

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan
Victor, i would appreciate it if you are going to slander a company

Where the slander WWM? Or are you just trolling?

Specky

You're obviously not a wheelchair user, though. You probably don't use the wheelchair ramps into, say, public buildings - though I assume that you can see that they are a good thing?

I absolutely did not intend to condone in any way the disregard of persons with disabilities, that was not my point. Most people who commented on the wheelchair levy (or those who I have heard anyway) were more concerned with why the levy should be applied to everyone, not the pros and cons of wheelchair access on aircraft, which is very poor....as with pretty much everywhere else in this country (and many others).

I think Michael Moore's point was this wasn't a very good idea.

Agreed but again my point related to how Ryan air are singled out for criticism, not about the general state of affairs within the industry. Market forces dictate these things...not necessarily just passenger driven market forces but also those relating to the employment market for staff.

I hope you're right.

Well what do you think? Irish people can't even form an orderly queue, what do you think would happen if you asked them to load an aircraft? One big pile of bags near the door to the baggage compartment. The plane would probably fall over on the tarmac.:rolleyes:

Mr E

Originally posted by dahamsta
Where the slander WWM? Or are you just trolling?

I presume its the "Ryanair 'r' scum" topic heading.

- Dave.

dahamsta

Originally posted by TmB
I presume its the "Ryanair 'r' scum" topic heading.

I guess so. That'd go a real long way in a court of law as "slander".

adam

eth0_

I don't see what the problem is. You have to pay to train for most professions (which is what being an air steward is, after all), whether it be fees for third level education or for professional courses, why not for training to be a professional air steward?

If it keeps their fares low, i'm all for it.

PhoenixRising

I have to say that I agree with the sentiment in the original post. Ryanair, as a company, have absolutely no ethics whatsoever. They have a highly ignorant and arrogant CEO. Some of their operating practices leave a lot to be desired at best. I don't take any pleasure in saying that in my opinion, there is an accident or serious incident just waiting to happen. I could give several examples/reasons as to why I say this, but I don't think it would be appropriate to do so here.

Two friends of mine currently work for Ryanair, and both are seeking jobs elsewhere, saying that working conditions are terrible and staff moral is low.

I am not "Ryanair" bashing just for the sake of doing so. They have been very successful at what they do and have made a lot of money, a lot of the credit for which goes to Michael O'Leary. What annoys me is the constant, business-driven, desire to cut costs at all costs, sometimes with safety being sacrificed.

Stark

as well as paying €30 a month to cover the cost and maintenance of their uniforms.

Trainees were also told to bring £50 to pay for a medical examination and a £65 registration fee for a "learning pack and test". Unsuccessful applicants would not receive a refund for the course fees.

Rediculous. I'd love to see how that "€30 a month to cover the cost and maintenance of uniforms" breaks down.

Paying for your own medical exam? wtf?

So with all this crap, are Ryanair fares (incl taxes and charges) actually getting lower?

Eurorunner

What continues to píss me off is that all of you who bítch and moan about ryanair have benefitted and continue to benefit from the normalised fairs which ryanair has forced the 'conventional' airlines to introduce. You may never fly ryanair but they have saved you hundreds.

With regard to the wheelchair issue, this was well explained by Micheal O'Leary a few weeks back on The Last Word. His point was that this should be provided by the airports themselves at terminals - and i would agree with him. With regard to factoring in the additional costs to provide such access, this is only natural...or do we expect them to run at a loss. Costs have to be covered in any business.

Bringing your own baggage onto the plane: I cant see how this will work but then ryanair do have a tendency to turn convention on its head.

Training Fees: I dont actually agree with this one - unless they are reinbursed the fees gradually - the longer they stay with the company. As someone pointed out, it may be a case that they're shelling out on training only to find that staff switch to another airline.

PhoenixRising

Originally posted by Eurorunner
With regard to the wheelchair issue, this was well explained by Micheal O'Leary a few weeks back on The Last Word. His point was that this should be provided by the airports themselves at terminals - and i would agree with him. With regard to factoring in the additional costs to provide such access, this is only natural...or do we expect them to run at a loss. Costs have to be covered in any business.

Maybe the airport authorities should be the one's to provide the wheelchairs, but the point is that it is not right that the charge be passed on to the disabled customer. The cost should be absorbed by Ryanair, as it is by most other airlines who have any morals. The British courts agree.

dahamsta

Originally posted by Eurorunner
What continues to píss me off is that all of you who bítch and moan

What, we're not allowed bitch and moan now? That's against the rules? I don't like Ryanair. I don't fly Ryanair. If someone brings it up, I'll exercise my right to bitch and moan about why I don't fly Ryanair. If you don't like it, why don't you go to another forum?

I don't really mean that, I'm just making a point. Drop it, good dog.

adam

Eurorunner

Maybe the airport authorities should be the one's to provide the wheelchairs, but the point is that it is not right that the charge be passed on to the disabled customer. The cost should be absorbed by Ryanair, as it is by most other airlines who have any morals. The British courts agree.

Theres an inaccuracy here. The costs are not being passed on to the disabled customer alone but to all customers. The idea of absorbing costs is rubbish - in fact, in real terms, theres no such thing. Bottom line, a business has to cover all costs or it goes under. I believe that ryanair went out of their way to demonstrate that all of these things have to be paid for.

What, we're not allowed bitch and moan now? That's against the rules?

Is that what i said adam, i dont think so...and you do it so well m8 .
Dont like ryanair you say...no problem..well you can fly out from Cork with jetmagic - ohh hold on you cant, silly me, they couldnt hack it.....aer lingus then - that ryanair wanabee airline..and when you do, you can kiss mick o learys butt cheeks as a thank you for your aer lingus fare being a fraction of what it was a couple of years ago..

PhoenixRising

Originally posted by Eurorunner
Theres an inaccuracy here. The costs are not being passed on to the disabled customer alone but to all customers.

They are now, but as a result of the British court ruling. They were passing the charge on to the disabled customers before the court ruling.

spongebob

I'd have a lot more sympathy for O'Leary if it was not for the fact that the MOST Disabled and Infirm and Elderly Unfriendly Terminal on the Planet has to be the Ryanair Terminal in Stansted. It is such a palaver getting to it that you must check in 40 Mins before the flight and not 30 mins like every other airport. In fact it used to be 30 mins till it was opened 2 years bak or so.

Ryanair Themselves designed this atrocity as a Model Low Cost Terminal and as a supposed example to the rest of the Airport Industry on how it Should be done.

Then the Court told them to think again and to absorb the full cost of their oversight into their cost base .

Good enough for O'Leary . Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

M

Eurorunner

Fair enough...disabled customers shouldnt be discriminated against - although my understanding is that this whole thing arose due to a dispute between stansted and ryanair over who should supply wheelchairs.

@Muck: I dont know anything about the design of the terminal but i do know that Stansted as a whole is a victim of its own success. The first time i ever used it, it was brilliant although that was a few years back. I was there in November and it was an absolute nightmare.

GreeBo

Originally posted by zenith
This is not in itself a bad thing, though the option to buy a glass of water should be available.

Why?
If they have decided that its not worth their while (not economically viable) then so be it.
Where do you draw the line on what *should* be available?
The point is that *you* dont, they do.


If you dont like it, go to Russia.

spongebob

Originally posted by Eurorunner
I dont know anything about the design of the terminal but i do know that Stansted as a whole is a victim of its own success. The first time i ever used it, it was brilliant although that was a few years back. I was there in November and it was an absolute nightmare.

It has been a victim of its own success alright even though they expanded the main terminal a year and a half ago . It was a nice calm chilled airport till about 2000 and then BooM .

My objection is to the down/over/up/across and down again route from the end of the 'Shopping Precinct' at the Wetherspoon pub to the Ryanair Gates and out to the planes. THis is where the disabled/elderly need assistance. I have often carried stuff for elderly people on this route (I used to do it a good few times a year 1999-2003) .

That was the bit that met with O'Learys approval as a 'model low cost terminal' . The older terminals (a MID 1980s design) are far more accessible thanks to the trains . Easyjet still use them and they are a low cost airline FFS .

M

ArphaRima

Basically what it comes down to is that ryanair have found another avenue for profit. - Staff training.
For example to send a (pilot) CV in to them cost 50 quid, with no guarantee of a response.
200 quid for an interview/sim check. 15 grand sterling for a 737 rating. regardless of previous experience, with the true cost at other institutions being about 10k. Then the new applicants are on 1/3 salary above the first 10k for the first three years.

A high turnover in staff due to low morale and tough working conditions, coupled with an unsympathetic management and non-existant union have seen the tables turn on the staff.
The problem is that far too many wannabes see the airlines as a glorious career and ryanair as a stepping stone to the "majors", the flipside of this is that the majors cannot compete with ryanairs artificially low costs and must reduce theirs to compete. All these people are doing is diluting the jobs they wish to get in the future.

And as for people disliking ryanair. I think its each persons' own call. I personally cant stand their style of management. Bully-boy tactics, and absolutely ethics-free profiteering at the expense of all (staff and passengers) result in a bleak future for anyone in any industry. Wait until your management decides to try the "ryanair model". You'll find yourself paying to apply for a job, paying for your suit, computer, desk, every cup of coffee, half salary for 3 years, and still made to feel like you owe more.

Then when you go on holiday with one of the three airlines left in europe, you'll find you've rescheduled for a flight home from paris in 6 weeks because of an air traffic control strike 2 days ago; of course you will have the option of paying for one of their "last minute economy fares" at only 400 euro, plus 60 in taxes, despite having only paid 1 euro plus 90 tax for the original flight. O Leary -Champion of the people indeed

Nuttzz

Ryanair have broken the mould in Europe for air travel. I used to pay £300 (punts) to get to places like leeds and newcastle in the UK when flying with BA & Aer Lingus, now I pay about €50 no amount of reclining seats, cabin service or headrest covers can make up for that difference.

Not so long ago people would leave Ireland for London and only be able to afford to come home at xmas, now they can fly in and out when every they want.

Ryanair are responsible to their shareholders to return a profit and the market is not a beast thats interested in poor results so that every passanger can have a cup of tea.

In saying that, hats off to Willy Walsh for the job he has done on Aer Lingus

BuffyBot

Bully-boy tactics, and absolutely ethics-free profiteering at the expense of all (staff and passengers)

Actually both as ex-staff and a previous passenger of Ryanair, I have to disagree.

Ryanair was one of the best employers I have worked for. The people were good, the management were good - actually I can't fault the company at all. The only reason I left was due to family circumstances which required me to find a job nearer home. Otherwise I would have stayed there a lot longer.

That said, as in my earlier post, I do find the method they are using regarding the financing of training pilots and cabin crew a bit much, and feel it could be structured better.

Regarding passengers - Ryanair do make a profit out of passengers...after all, that is their reason for being. However, on the whole, any problems passengers experienced were on the whole their own making. Ryanair are by no means perfect, but they certainly aren't the spawn of Satan that some make out.

In saying that, hats off to Willy Walsh for the job he has done on Aer Lingus

Well I agree with that statement, but not the intent. Aer Lingus has turned into a shambles of an airline who I avoid flying now at all costs. They can't decide exactly where they are going, or what they exactly want to be. They could have done so much better.