[Article] €3bn rail network for Dublin 'ready in six years'

dmeehan

A €3BN intergrated rail network plan for Dublin - to include a tunnel running underneath the River Liffey and linking commuter towns to the city centre - was unveiled by Iarnrod Eireann yesterday.

And the system, which will link the proposed Metro and Luas to the existing rail network, could be fast-tracked to be in place in just six years.

Yesterday the company outlined its ambitious plans to the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport, saying the improved rail infrastructure should more than double existing passenger capacity from 25,000 people per hour to 60,000 per hour when complete.

The company also vowed to provide a frequent commuter rail service from almost all towns within a 100km - approximately 60 miles - radius of Dublin city.

Iarnrod Eireann Managing Director, Joe Meagher, said the system could be delivered at a cost of €3bn, including rolling stock, and if funding was provided it could be "fast-tracked" to be in place by 2010.

He added that construction of a 5.2km InterConnector tunnel running underneath the River Liffey would provide the "missing link" in the existing rail network. It was a key plank of the strategy and would be built for around €1.3bn.

The plan envisages building 10 new stations around the city to service the growing suburbs, while five underground tunnels wil be built at the Docklands, Pearse Street, St Stephen's Green, High Street and Heuston Station.

For the first time, a regular train service will connect Heuston Station to the city centre, providing an improved service to passengers travelling on the inter-city network. By 2008 the city will also see a new station at Spencer Dock and increased capacity on the Kildare line to the city centre.

Mr Meagher said the company could only provide "limited capacity" at present due to an under-resourced and insufficient rail network.

"Commuter rail has enormous potential if properly developed. This would be the ultimate network, intergrated with all the services and useful for journey's within the city centre."

Mr Meagher said that the company had two options to service the airport from the existing network.

A connection could be built from the Northern Dart line, at a cost between €300m and €440m, or the Maynooth line could be extended via Heuston Station for €525m. The company preferred the former option due to ease of construction and cost considerations.

Paul Melia (todays Indo)

dmeehan

Also:

Commuter heaven promised for growing capital

DUBLIN city workers could live within 100kms of the city and still be at work in just 75 minutes once the fully integrated Greater Dublin rail system is in place, Iarnrod Eireann claimed yesterday.

The company has vowed to provide frequent commuter services from towns in Meath, Wicklow, Louth, Kildare and Longford by 2012, in an effort to get people out of their cars and "The InterConnector is a must do," he said. "The InterConnector is essential to take people from Meath, Wicklow, Louth and Longford off the roads and onto the railway line."

And commuters living in Kildare will see a 400pc improvement in capacity by 2007 and more rolling stock and improvements to the network come on stream. The company plan to introduce a new Kildare to Spencer Dock service by 2006, which will utilise the existing tunnel that runs underneath the Phoenix Park.

Kildare trains currently terminate at Heuston Station, and are preventing from carrying on to the city centre, because of a lack of capacity at Connolly Station.

The company also plans to introduce a Drogheda to Kildare route; a Maynooth to Greystones route through Connolly station and a Dublin to Dunboyne and Navan in Co Meath link.

The demand for rail would continue to increase as Dublin continues its urban sprawl.

Mr Meagher told the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport, and people would move to particular areas if an efficient rail service was in place.

Committee Chairman Eoin Ryan (FF) said plans for the InterConnector tunnel should be adopted by the Government as commuters had "longed for the day" when they could take a train between Heuston Station and Connolly Station.

"People will switch from cars to rail if the system works," he added. "An integrated system such as the company is now proposing is the missing link which could solve the traffic problems in and out of Dublin and I believe it should be implemented."

uberwolf

I've been looking on www.irishrail.ie for some info on this and maps? nothing there by the looks of it. Where would be a better place to look?

Genghis

This was also in some of the papers at the weekend - the Tribune anyway.

This plan really sounds exciting, I want to hear what Platform 11 have to say, from what I understand this plan incorporates many of their ideas for the existing interconnector, but also includes a new tunnel (Heuston, Christchurch, Stephens Green, Pierce), effectively creating a city centre ring that links all city centre stations, and all existing / planned services - Dart, Airport, Arrow Service and Luas.

Interestingly, in the Sunday Tribune the plan was actally presented more as an extension of the Dart, with IE proposing 3 lines, I'll see if I can dig out further details.

P11 Comms

Platform11 are absolutely delighted about and we back it 100% - we have always said that a ‘Fully Optimised DART’ is the only real solution to Greater Dublin car congestion.

Great news, and we will do everything we can to support Irish Rail in delivering this excellent plan – the phone has been ringing off the hook all morning - so the media seem very positive towards it as well.

60,000 passengers an hour by rail trough central Dublin connecting with all other modes and unlike Platform for Change, Irish Rail actually understand that Park and Rides at outlying stations are a major solution to the congestion in the city and GRD region.

We are so confident of this plan, that if it was implemented in full, not only would if maximise passenger services in Dublin, but nationwide. The railways would be so busy with thousands of extra train paths on all routes, we may even see a situation where Irish rail can capture enough passenger traffic to actually make an operating profit. It is possible, and this could do it.

This is money so well spent that if the Government pays for it now, our great-great grandchildren will be benefiting – just imagine Dublin today if the DART was cancelled in favour of a “mosherway” along Sandymount Strand. Our buddy Ismale would be sitting in his congested bliss talking about all the money that is being raised in petrol and road tax during his 4 hour commute past the James Joyce Martello Petrol Station to a Dublin city centre that is a cultureless wasteland filled with multi-story car parks like LA, devoid of European tourist who are used to public transport in their home country and are not all blue rinse American grannies in their Avis rent a car looking for leprechauns.

The DART liberated Dublin city centre in many way, economically, socially, culturally and took millions of car movements from our city. Time to finally export the DART success to other areas now. Come over to the dark side Ismale, your grandchildren be glad you did. A fully optimised DART is yer only man.

www.platform11.org/archive

ixoy

Maybe I'm missing something, but how are they planning to cope with the fact that DARTs, Arrows, etc. are crammed to capacity already and that adding more stations will add more passengers? Are they increasing the frequency of DARTs on the tracks? I thought they couldn't go beyond 12 an hour? Surely more trains will just decrease the amount of trains for an already over crowded service.

Stark

They're going to be adding more tracks by the looks of it. Currently the Dart is just one long line really going from north-east to south-east, from the looks of this it will now service the western parts of Dublin as well.

P11 Comms

ioxy, the problem now is the trains all hit Heuston and Connelly at the same time. With an interconnector tunnel they pass through the city centre instead of parking in it. The trains will start say in Drogheda and teminate in Kildare, starti n Maynooth and terminated in Goery. The city centre is another stop on the way, not a collection of train parking locations it is now with trains trying to find space, get out of the way for other trains like is happening now.

With the new tunnel they get into the city and out of the city FAST and likewise all the train behind them This is how you massivly increase capacity.

There will also be a surface station as well at Spencer Dock along with Connolly and Heuston and Barrow Street/Pearse for other inter city services to teminate in. The number of possibilities that could be opened up by this plan is simply mind-blowing - a Swiss/Japanese style high capacity rail network for Dublin - no IRELAND no bother.

ishmael whale

Originally posted by P11 Comms
..... Our buddy Ismale would be sitting in his congested bliss talking about all the money that is being raised in petrol and road tax during his 4 hour commute past the James Joyce Martello Petrol Station to a Dublin city centre that is a cultureless wasteland filled with multi-story car parks like LA, devoid of European tourist who are used to public transport in their home country and are not all blue rinse American grannies in their Avis rent a car looking for leprechauns.

The DART liberated Dublin city centre in many way, economically, socially, culturally and took millions of car movements from our city. Time to finally export the DART success to other areas now. Come over to the dark side Ismale, your grandchildren be glad you did. A fully optimised DART is yer only man.

www.platform11.org/archive

Thank you for misquoting my views, and I look forward to repeating the complement some day. In the thread to which you are referring I drew attention, inter alia, to the fact that the bulk of Irish rail travel amounts to the DART – apparently something like 25 million of the 35 million rail passenger journeys are taken account of by DART. I acknowledged that there was a role for rail in commuter services. This thread can be found here:

http://muppet.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=141318&perpage=20&pagenumber=2

On the face of it, I actually agree the proposal on this thread deserves attention. My problem is with the so-called inter-city services. As I have outlined in the previous thread, we’re spending the guts of €350 million for 7 million journeys (excluding Cork line which seems to make a reasonable contribution to its existance) The idea of a five day return costing €35 requiring a subsidy of €80 needs some justification. The DART subsidy, from what I can find, is something like €2 a journey and well justified on grounds that without it a large chunk of people just could not get to work.

Overall, excluding school transport, Bus Eireann carry more than five times this number of passengers at one tenth of the cost. No-one has given any sensible justification for the continuation of these particular rail services.

I don’t support rail for the sake of rail, and if that’s your agenda we will inevitably disagree. Rail which can usefully serve a purpose – such as upgrading commuter services in the Dublin area – is a different matter. It might be worth investing 3 billion in this. The main caution – given the cost increases on Luas – would seem to be operational, i.e. ensuring that the project stays within the planned budget.

Winters

Cant get my hands on a copy of the indo just yet, was there any graphics with that article?

Mark Bishop OBO "Winters"

Genghis

There was a brief interview on Newstalk with Barry Kenny and Platform 11. I thought I heard that this could all be done in 8 years with current funding, and 6 years if the funding was accelerated. Was this right??

uberwolf

Originally posted by Winters
Cant get my hands on a copy of the indo just yet, was there any graphics with that article?

no graphics in the online version nyway. I too am looking for coloured pictures.

dmeehan

has anyone found any graphics/maps yet? typical IE not to post details on their website

where was this plan presented yesterday?

P11 Comms

the official map is here:

www.platform11.org/dublin_rail.html

at the bottom of the page

BrianD

I fail to see how the Connolly-Heuston tunnel is justified. Both stations are already linked by rail, Tram and bus services!! Why a tunnel?

Victor

Originally posted by BrianD
I fail to see how the Connolly-Heuston tunnel is justified. Both stations are already linked by rail, Tram and bus services!! Why a tunnel?

To connect Heuston with Stephens Green (Luas) and Pearse (DART). Part of the problem without it would be then while you could get into the city centre, you can't get around the city centre.

silverside

Platform11,

That looks interesting.

Your map seems very similar to that proposed by DTO/Platform for change, except that they plan to serve Dublin Airport, Swords, Ballymun, etc with a metro which would link in to the rest of the metro as well as the city centre.
The platform11 leaves them out, apart from linking dublin airport via a spur of the heavily congested Howth/Drogheda line.

I think if you plan to build a metro, you may as well do it right, and Seamus Brennan recently seemed to indicate that tendering for the first phase of the metro to swords was imminent.

The indo seems to be publishing a lot of transport related stories. Anyone know Where are they getting their leaks/information from, and why its not being made available as press releases?

BrianD

Surely, it would be cheaper to extend the sandyford line onwards to O'connell st?

Genghis

That would be cheaper, and indeed doing nothing would be cheaper again.

The best thing about this project is not the cost, it is the results it gives - joined up rail infrastructure, a city centre loop, through services, additional capacity, and the ability to get from any town up to 60 miles away to anywhere in the cit cenre with a maximum of one change.

€3bn to transform a 19th century infrastructure at breaking point to a 21st century masss transport solution - my opinion: start it now.

By the way, IE also have an excellent reputation for project management - large scale projects recently completed such as Heuston imporvements, Newbridge improvements and additional railway line on the main Dublin/Kildare line have all, afaicr, come in on time and under budget.

BrianD

Just don't let the RPA near it!!

Genghis

LOL Brian, they certainly have a 'track record'.

De Rebel

Originally posted by ishmael whale
As I have outlined in the previous thread, we’re spending the guts of €350 million for 7 million journeys (excluding Cork line which seems to make a reasonable contribution to its existance)

I agree with the rest of your post. Why make an exception of the Cork line? Its slow, irregular and still largely uncomfortable.

CIE have spent money on the service, and regard it as a success. It shows how low their aspirations are. In this, the 21st century, The service should be very regular, fast (sub 90 minutes), and comfortable. It fails on all 3 counts. The proof of this is the number of people who use both the appalling aer rianta/aer arran air service and the number of people who subject themselves to the cork-dublin road on a daily basis.

The Cork-Dublin rail service is far from being a showcase. It certainly does not set a standard which the rest of the service should aspire to. Its rubbish and frustrating joke for those of us who need to travel on a regular basis.

CIE/RPA/Dept.of Transport/minnie brennan/DIT/etc/etc are ineffectual and incapable of delivering tangible results. The prospect of them frittering away another 3bn has no appeal whatsoever.

ishmael whale

The main reason for excluding the Cork line is I understand that some of its services make a profit. It carries about 3 million people a year, so it accounts for a significant portion of non-DART travellers, but does not require much of the 350 million subsidy. My chief point is that what we get for the subsidy is 7 million journeys, not 10 million.

I still wouldn't rule out the investment in Dublin commuter services. In practical terms DART is now an essential part of the city's transport network, yet I can remember Vincent Browne condemning at the time as a junket for the middle class. We can all clearly see a need to do something major to cater for current and future needs, and certainly the lack of integration of services is a problem. I'd let the jury consider this proposal a little longer.

thesecret7

I reckon anything going towards rail has to be a good thing. I commute on a bus every day (i wont shame the company) but there has been a few times the weather etc has affected the service. Also its not the most comfortable way to travel. This project outlined seems to be a necessity. The Cork line should be upgraded !!

ishmael whale

Before relying too much on the imperviousness of trains to weather conditions, can I remind you of the Irish Rail annual leaf-fall announcement.

We should upgrade the Dublin Cork line if it looks like it can be made to offer a competitive alternative to road and air, and that enough people will use it. We should not upgrade rail where it offers no real advantage over road and we can reasonably predict that people will not use it. Therefore out with the Wetern Rail Corridor, but potentially in with more commuter services in Dublin.

thejollyrodger

Yeah... this €3bn on rail is a good idea. Its not a lot of money but its a start. As for road, well motorways are all well and good but they arent as comfortable as rail and tend to jam up with traffic all the time. Travelling by bus sucks. The government has to go ahead with the Western Rail Corridor

ishmael whale

I know the main purpose of this thread is a potentially useful proposal, but the reference to the Western Rail Corridor needs to be challenged.

It’s a question of costs and benefits. Even with a heavily subsidised fare, people decide to travel by bus ignoring whatever theoretical benefits people see rail as having. People seem willing to put up with risks of traffic congestion (presumably somewhat alleviated by bus lanes) and whatever discomfort is perceived by rail advocates.

As pointed out above, rail requires a heavy subsidy to operate, bus does not. The situation seems to be that people pay of the order of €35 for a return rail ticket, but if they had to pay the full price the cost would be around €115. A Bus Eireann monthly return ticket seems to be around €16 to €20, depending on the route. Unlike rail, these charges cover the full economic price on many routes and attract customers at a profit even where there is a competing rail service. It can be imagined how few people would be attracted to rail if, like bus, they were expected to pay the full cost or close to the full cost.

The conclusion is that rail is not generally suited to Irish conditions, and requires heavy subsidies that could better be used elsewhere. The Western Rail Corridor would simply add to the problem.

thejollyrodger

I think thats total rubbish. I commute on a bus regularly and it sucks, its dead expensive so dont give me that crap about it being cheap. Im sick on the small seats and the chance of the bus not arriving. Its also slow!( Its not Bus Eireann by the way)

So what if the Western line isnt going to be completely profitable... we arent simply a nation of consumers. The west deserves something, its crap over there, they have nothing and its the least the government can do!

The Dublin Cork and Dublin Galway line need to be upgraded. Rail is the best way to travel

ishmael whale

Thank you for your balanced and well supported response. Let me say first I have drawn a clear distinction between commuter services for which there is a demand and so-called inter-city services which require enormous subsidies but carry far fewer passengers than bus services.

Information on the extent to which rail is subsidised can be found here.

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2004/01/11/story350682747.asp

Statistics on passenger numbers, ticket prices and some financial information can be found at the various CIE group websites, all linked to www.cie.ie.

It is therefore clearly not ‘crap’ to say that bus is cheaper than rail. It is simply a fact, based on the sources above. If you want to refute this fact then produce a similar level of support. Several people have said that rail is more comfortable, but it does not seem to be comfort that people want to pay for, despite a subsidy of €350 million.

Equally, it’s not a question of throwing money at the Western Rail Corridor because we feel sorry for the West. It’s a matter of seeing how we can best use our resources for everyone’s benefit. To put some perspective on what rail services cost, consider what these resources could achieve elsewhere.

http://www.education.ie/servlet/blobservlet/statistics01-02.pdf

According the Department of Education (link above) there are 24,000 primary teachers serving 441,000 pupils. The total salary cost is about €1 billion. The €350 spent subsidising rail services could, therefore, be used to increase the number of primary teachers by one third, reducing the pupil teacher ratio from an abysmal 18.4 to 13.7. This would mean that, in crude numbers, our primary school system would compare to international norms as stated by Forfas at the link below. At present our primary schooling would be regarded as primitive.

http://www.forfas.ie/ncc/reports/ncc_2000/people.htm

Why subsidise an unsuitable form of transport when there are alternatives available, and pressing needs for those resources in other sectors?

West Briton

Your analysis is interesting, but given that the policies you advocate were effectively those of successive governments from the 1950s until the end of the 1970s, why didn't the initial closures of Harcourt Street to Bray and the other extensive railway closures up to 1976's closure of the Western Rail Corridor provide the economic spin-offs that you advocate?

Andrew Duffy

You are also ignoring the fact that buses are in fact subsidised - Bus Éireann does not have to include the cost of capital acquisition or maintenance in its costs, nor does it have to pay a fair share of the cost of building and maintaining the roads it runs on. Private motorists subsidise bus and HGV tranport through VRT and motor tax; since private motoring contributes none of the damage and very little of the need for intercity road building you could say that this subsidy is as high as €500m pa. Compare this to the €240m per year invested in maintaining railways (obviously the cost of building the Luas is not included in that) and the €170m in subsidising unprofitable routes and bus transport does not look so great. You have also neglected to offer your interpretation of why Finland, with an equivalent or possibly more awkward population distribution than Ireland, operates high speed rail services at good frequencies if rail is so obviously unsuited to sparsely populated countries.