Bush to visit Ireland in June

bonkey

Is my memory failing me, or did Ireland state that it wouldn't host certain events during its EU presidency because the security cost would be too high given the alleged risks of terrorism?????

Nice to see that such concerns went out the window once a bigger target wanted to come here instead.

jc

kiffer

Originally posted by bonkey
Is my memory failing me, or did Ireland state that it wouldn't host certain events during its EU presidency because the security cost would be too high given the alleged risks of terrorism?????

Nice to see that such concerns went out the window once a bigger target wanted to come here instead.

jc

The americans bring their own security.
I really dont hthink that they would let us plan security for them... it'll be snipers on ever roof in dublin and SS men al over the place trying to look like deaf tourists with flesh coloured hearing aids. muttering in to their wrists trying to figure out why theres a woman beating the seven shades of *hit out of a man who keeps saying "Im sorry!, she's not an auld bat!"

how would it cost to have bush over?
it's not like they'd let us set up the secrity so we dont have to pay for that ... they have all their own cars and tanks and solders and Trucks with Missiles on the back and such for the march down Dame Street.
the only cost will be a day off to go shout at him. which is all fun and games untill you deside to go to america on holidays next year and you find that your name has appeared on the "ramdom" cavity search list and your on level 3 securty and 7 hours later you've missed your connecting flight and you call the grunt a wanker cause he wont believe that you dont plan to kill Lord Bush, so you end up in an orange jumpsuit shackled to a stake in the ground in Camp Xray, waiting for them to let you use the shower while they call you towel head and while your freinds and family complain and our Government does nothing cause there is'nt really anything they can do and then two years later they let you go and say we are the american government we dont need to appoligize. now go home ...and so you write a book and call it "How I learned to love America"

you'll mention the conditions in the Camp and how it cured your ADD and now you have no trouble paying attention to things or concentrating ... you might even call it a Solution to your problem ... well that wasn't very nice I know but still it's not like america would ignore any treaties or UN resolutions or ever human rights...

but back to the bush visit ...

how much would it cost for him to visit ... in terms of costs of securtiy, cost in lost bussiness because the city has to shut down, clean up from the people in the streets both protesting and not and so on...
replacing the dear in the park after a helicopter lands on them...

I say let him come ... but restrict his securty team to 5 guys and with no guns.

I'm sorry I'll never post again. (not true)

ReefBreak

Originally posted by thesecret7
Bertie Ahern has no right to hold the meeting here in Ireland. It should be held in Brussels..... George Bush go home !! We dont want **** like that coming over!!
End the illegal occupation of the West Bank Gaza and Golan heights!!

Actually, he has every right to hold the meeting here. Bush will be here an an US-EU visit, Ireland holds the current EU presidency, therefore we are expected to hold the meeting. Good post by the way, though I think your middle-east political knowledge is a bit off.

shotamoose

Originally posted by kiffer


how much would it cost for him to visit ...

Bush visit cost London £4m in security etc

bonkey

Originally posted by kiffer
The americans bring their own security.

Yes, and they make demands of what is required locally, but I don't think they pay for it.

Last time a US president visited Ireland, for example, I recall reading that every manhole-cover from the airport to his residence for the visit was welded shut in advance, and then (obviously) unwelded once the route no longer needed to be "secure".

Did the US pay for that? I don't think so*.

jc

Yes, I said "think". I am not sure. If anyone knows for sure, I'd like to hear.

chill

As I have often posted I have no time for this dolt of a President.

However he is President of America, our most valuable friend and ally and is here representing the American people.

I hope we do pay for every last cost of having their representative here and I wish some of the rabid Bush haters would give a thought to how the American people will feel toward Ireland when they see him being insulted by, happily, a small minority of Irish people.

It will only lead to less employment in the country, and less tourism - all for the sake of an ego trip by these people.

kiffer

Originally posted by chill
As I have often posted I have no time for this dolt of a President.

.

Originally posted by chill
I hope we do pay for every last cost of having their representative here and I wish some of the rabid Bush haters would give a thought to how the American people will feel toward Ireland when they see him being insulted by, happily, a small minority of Irish people.

well, I see two things happening ...
one the number of protesters is small and they are lost in the massive number of happy flag wavers.
or
two the american media never shows the protesters and adds some happy flag wavers.

either way they'll stay in their happy isolationist place.

I'd be very unhappy to see us pay €4M for bush to come here. thats madness ...
when our people go to america can they bring a few snippers? I dont think that would go down well ...
hello I'd like to put a snipper on the roof of the whitehouse while I'm there ... not going to happen...
so not only will we have to put up with their demands for things like the man hole covers and things but we have to let their people wander all over the place with guns and such. we have to pay a huge amount so he can get more votes? and you think people should'nt protest about things he's done/been involved in/ordered?

monument

Originally posted by chill
I hope we do pay for every last cost of having their representative here and I wish some of the rabid Bush haters would give a thought to how the American people will feel toward Ireland when they see him being insulted by, happily, a small minority of Irish people.

It will only lead to less employment in the country, and less tourism - all for the sake of an ego trip by these people.

Yes, I always put innocent people getting killed and illegal invasions above tourism and how people from the US will feel. What an ego trip!!!

But now that I think of it, if we had covered up the whole Northern Ireland thing we would have got more tourists. :rolleyes:

bonkey

Originally posted by chill
However he is President of America, our most valuable friend and ally and is here representing the American people.

I hope we do pay for every last cost of having their representative here

So you're advocating sending a message to the other EU members that "we can't afford the security cost to bring you here, but we'll pay for Dubya because the US is, apparently, more important to us"???

Great way to show how serious about the EU we are whilst carrying its presidency.

jc

shotamoose

Originally posted by chill
I wish some of the rabid Bush haters would give a thought to how the American people will feel toward Ireland when they see him being insulted by, happily, a small minority of Irish people.

But calling Bush, for example, a dangerous fool, wouldn't really be an insult, since it's basically true.

Sparks

Originally posted by chill
However he is President of America, our most valuable friend and ally

Actually, the EU is our most valuable friend and ally, as shown by the amount of infrastructural funding we've received from them in the past. The US has not funded us in the same manner. (Private sector US companies don't count as they are not political bodies).

As to protesting not being as effective as voting against someone, very true - and the day I can vote against either Bush or Bertie, I won't bother with protesting against them.

But I can't vote against Bush, not being american, and I can't vote against Bertie, not being registered in his constituency.

So what else can I do, Sand?

sovtek

Originally posted by bonkey
So you're advocating sending a message to the other EU members that "we can't afford the security cost to bring you here, but we'll pay for Dubya because the US is, apparently, more important to us"???

Great way to show how serious about the EU we are whilst carrying its presidency.

jc

"Yea well uh they gave me little one a movie deal" -Bertie Ahern

DaithiSurfer

Just a word of warning.
I have a friend who did something some would consider bad a few years ago.
Anyway when being interviewed by 'the various authorities' she was presented with photographs of herself at every protest she had ever been at. Need less to say when she told me i couldnt believe that it was legal to photograph people at protests etc. Since i have found out from people in the know that even though you dont know about it at its not made public you are indeed photographed and if you do something considered 'against the best interests' of particular people or governments that these photos will be produced and used to stop you entering certain countries.
Sorry, i can't be more specific, but cannot give the plot away here.
Moral : cover your face when you protest.

shotamoose

Originally posted by DaithiSurfer

Moral : cover your face when you protest.

No. I don't want to visit any country that wouldn't let me in cos they're not happy with me expressing my views. I wouldn't say I'm the only one, either. You might find that countries which harass people expressing their freedom of speech like this will lose more visitors than those that allow protest.

Oh, and the corollary is that anyone who decides not to visit Ireland simply because some people felt like protesting against George Bush is exactly the kind of person we could do without. IMHO.

dathi1

On this case I find myself on the same side as the "lefties". Really looking forward to the protests and I will play an active part in rallying the troops starting today. This is the best chance since the invasion and occupation to send a message to the 40 million Irish American voters that we hate Bush period. This unelected lying ball of slime must be given the most vile rebuttal possible in June. I don't think the protests will be as family orientated as the anti war demos but given the frustration of the general public with Ahearn and Harney's pandering to this gang of war criminals I'd say it will be significant.

Now did yez hear what bertie said in the Irish Times!! "I doont want yez protestin against Bush"

That's as good an incentive as any.

Hobbes

Originally posted by TomF
Look for tourism from the U.S.A. to Ireland to drop precipitously right after the orgy of protesting and general America-hating that erupts here during Bush's visit and after all that hits the U.S. media.

The currency at the moment is doing that. So can't give all the credit to how people feel in Ireland.

dathi1

i begin to wonder whats the point of protesting other than to vent our frustration. It seems that governments these days completely ignore the wishes of their populace, eg. Blair retard boy in the UK. Why not just vote Bertie out? That would be the way to teach a lesson to politicians.

Well you cant vote for who you want comes election time..buts that's boring...on this matter its Marketing that counts. If you get a big turn out and you get U.S. TV coverage...You've won. Why? Because you played a part in the anti Bush marketing strategy. 46% of the Americans aren't too keen on Bush at the moment. Every little helps in what might be a close run fraudulent election. So get your banners, Palestinian Flags, F### Bush Posters and whatever else and yer away.

Cork

Originally posted by dathi1
, Palestinian Flags, F### Bush Posters and whatever else and yer away.

US remittances, US tourism & foriegn direct direct investment has done alot for this country.

US media are not going to cover Irish protestors.

What is waving Palestinian Flags expected to achieve? Why not protest aganist the tactic of suicide bombings?

Such protests will get some coverage by RTE and the Joe Duffy radio show.

But beyond that, their main effect will cost the Irish exchequer many euros in security costs.

Ajnag

Both american and irish constitutions mean alot to me, and as such I will be out to protest against bertie and bush the traitors.Not because Im of some defineable political sterotype, nor because Im anti-american.But because theres a lack of respect for good old fashioned law.

Im up for a boards protest day, count me in, If its possible.

As for slogans hhmm

Bertie Bertie Hes your man,
If Anyone can suck it
Bertie Can.

Redleslie

Originally posted by Sand
You see thats a solution - when it comes to election time vote for someone else. Elections are where politicans pay a lot of attention to the wishes of their populace.

But protesting is easier - you show up for the one day, say "boooo, down with that sort of thing" and then go home and forget about it. Hell, you can even make a day of it.

Unfortunately protests arent elections so even a hundred thousand protestors = 0 votes.

So youre right, all its good for is venting frustration.

So the following examples of mass protest were just a waste of everybody's time and had no political or cultural impact whatsoever.

Daniel O'Connell's monster meetings.
The Gandhi thing.
1968 France.
NI civil rights movement.
US Civil rights movement.
Vietnam war protests.

Now maybe you're special, and if you'd been involved in any of those events you would've forgotten about the whole thing in a day or two but somehow I think anyone who was there would remember a few details.

I can think of quite a few good reasons to protest but if the prospect of a large scale demo against Bush makes our right wing's lunatic fringe so nervous, then that's gotta be near the top of the list. Begin construction of the giant pretzels.

Cork

Originally posted by Redleslie

I can think of quite a few good reasons to protest but if the prospect of a large scale demo against Bush makes our right wing's lunatic fringe so nervous, then that's gotta be near the top of the list. Begin construction of the giant pretzels.

What do you think an Irish protest will achieve?

RTE will cover it but it will be not covered internationally.

The most recent of the list of marchs you mention was in the 60's. We have moved on from a world of flower power and hippies.

The usual suspects will protest (socialists etc) - It won't even get get a mention on CNN, Fox or Sky.

Security will keep it well away from the President so apart from being covered by RTE - any protests will be sort of pointless.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

pencil

Originally posted by Cork
What do you think an Irish protest will achieve?
RTE will cover it but it will be not covered internationally.

Come on! - It will affect local our politics - Bertie & esp. that Martin (your democracy is safe with us) Cullen << the arrogance of this guy is amazing!

Originally posted by Cork
The most recent of the list of marchs you mention was in the 60's. We have moved on from a world of flower power and hippies.

Yes now observant of you - fashions have indeed changed!

The usual suspects will protest (socialists etc)

Quite the opposite actually - personally, I'm a well to do landlord. Sorry to upset your preconceptions.

Security will keep it well away from the President so apart from being covered by RTE - any protests will be sort of pointless.

He'll know, big protest don't got unnoticed - what else to you think the 'moral majority' should do? sit back and take it up the @ss?

Cork you are tiring

Our man in Havana

Is the summit going to be in Portlaoise? I see a lot of EU/US flags up.

Ajnag

Originally posted by Cork
What do you think an Irish protest will achieve?

RTE will cover it but it will be not covered internationally.

The most recent of the list of marchs you mention was in the 60's. We have moved on from a world of flower power and hippies.

The usual suspects will protest (socialists etc) - It won't even get get a mention on CNN, Fox or Sky.

Security will keep it well away from the President so apart from being covered by RTE - any protests will be sort of pointless.

And even if it conveys to bush that yet another countrys citizens are unconvinced by his policys?

Or If an Irish protest conveys disatisfation to the Irish american community?

Or If even not to sit on ones ass, and appease a man responsible for an illegal war?

Also why generalise the protesters, are you trying to say that the anti war protests last year consisted of the "usual suspects" ? hmm.

Not quite aware of the precepts of democracy are you cork, Ie the right to freely assemble and protest that existed long before the 60s.Also dose a protest have to be covered by larger media outlets for it to be vindicated?, was the farmers romp in dublin covered by cnn?.

It may be pointless in your opinion, but luckly those with the same sentiment have not been listened to in history.Besides Once again your just defending bertie blindly, and frankly from your previous posts you never seem to care whats presented or argued, just that ff or bertie can n'er do wrong.

Hobbes

Here is what will happen.

1. Huge buffer zone which will totally screw everyones day up while Bush is here.

2. Protesters will be allowed protest in Sligo while Bush is in Dublin.

3. Bush will be surrounded by his 100 or so sicofants as he gives his speech on how great everything is, people will clap and reporters will stick in a clip from Braveheart after Mel Gibson says "You can never take our freedom" to show how the Irish people love him so much.

4. Anyone showing up at the protests will get filmed by the local CIA and put on file which will be dragged up when that person tries to get a visa to the US (they did it during the CND protests in the Reagan era).

5. Bertie will get his tongue down the back of Bushes trousers for the time he is here and thank his lucky stars that Bush still lets him be leader.

dathi1

US remittances, US tourism & foriegn direct direct investment has done alot for this country.

Post Celtic Tiger, 10 years of American investment since Intel in 93 has nothing whatsoever got to do with war criminals in the Whitehouse. American investment has nothing to do with resentment of Bush. Nearly half of all Americans..probably more..would agree?? America Yes / Unelected Bush No.

US media are not going to cover Irish protestors.

I know your Government colleges would hope this but CNBC, CNN, ABC just might. Its worth a try.

What is waving Palestinian Flags expected to achieve? Why not protest aganist the tactic of suicide bombings?

Well there's a number of issues when it comes to this admin. Backing war criminal Sharon by lack of action since the declared "RoadMap" The Zionist land grab wall, The consistent murder and killing (collateraly :rolleyes: ) by IDF. But don't just stop there we have Iraq / Halliburton / Kyoto etc. Suicide Bombings?? totally irrelevant to Bush's visit but that's what ordinary people like you and me get up to when your land is stolen and your relatives are obliterated by "collateral" damage etc ect..

Such protests will get some coverage by RTE and the Joe Duffy radio show.

Na...dont hold yer horses on that one.

But beyond that, their main effect will cost the Irish exchequer many euros in security costs.

Considering the wastage in protecting our Eurocrat masters for the last six months....the expense no matter how much will have a significant benefit for Ireland and the rest of the world. We might just help to tip the balance with Irish American voters to get rid of Bush!..... Bush out peace in

Cork

Originally posted by pencil
Come on! - It will affect local our politics - Bertie & esp. that Martin (your democracy is safe with us) Cullen << the arrogance of this guy is amazing!

So, protests anganist bush will not be about bush - they'll be about Martin Cullan.

Why Cullan?

Was it because of the eletronic voting that was introduced on a trial basis before the last election? (Big Issue - back then)

What amazes me was the lack of protests aganist Clinton.

Did Clinton not bomb and support sanctions aganist Iraq?

Clinton attacted big crowds in Ballyb and Limerick.

But Bush is a republican.

Redleslie

Originally posted by Cork
What do you think an Irish protest will achieve?

At a guess I'd say that people will amongst other things, be registering their disapproval with the direction the Bush administration is trying to take the world. As others have already pointed out, a protest might influence a critical section of the American electorate and like I've said, it will annoy the right wing's lunatic fringe who poo their pants anytime large numbers of people meet up to mock the pretentious and powerful and even dare to have a laugh while they're at it. If there are no protests, no doubt it'll be claimed that the Irish people unanimously approve of Bush's policies and we're 100% with him rather than with evil terrorists.

RTE will cover it but it will be not covered internationally.

EU/US summits are rare enough so it probably will get international media attention actually, especially if the cops have their beating trousers on.

The most recent of the list of marchs you mention was in the 60's. We have moved on from a world of flower power and hippies.

19th century Irish peasants, Vietnam war refuseniks like Mohammad Ali (!!!!), 10 million striking French people, loads and loads of Indians and every catholic in northern Ireland (except those in the evil IRA who of course thought protests were a waste of time too) were all hippies were they? I would've hoped you could have come up with some more examples without any help but I seem to have overestimated your ability to think for yourself.

The usual suspects will protest (socialists etc) - It won't even get get a mention on CNN, Fox or Sky.

Carry on panicking.

Security will keep it well away from the President so apart from being covered by RTE - any protests will be sort of pointless.

Yeah well that's all very Stalinist isn't it. If dissent is rendered invisible then it cannot actually officially exist. Sometimes mass demonstrations achieve their objectives, sometimes they don't. Sometimes lots of people get slaughtered or beaten. Sometimes they achieve something quite unexpected. The 1990 poll tax riots in London contributed to the downfall of Margaret Thatcher for example and Romania's Ceausescu was deposed largely by chance. Sometimes they cause a paradigm shift or thrust issues onto the political agenda, as the anti-globalisation protests have done. Sometimes they're merely part of a broader political and social current. Sometimes they create a powerful image and help inspire others around the world to stand up for themselves.

I suppose it's worth pointing out the amusing irony that the authoritarian* types who tend to support bombing the bejaysus out of countries in order to "democratise" them are absolutely terrified of things like public protest and think everyone should just do as they're told and believe what they're bloody well told to believe.

*I don't mean that pro-Bushies are all little dictators. According to Theodore Adorno, authoritarians do not want to give orders or wield power, they want to conform, take orders and think of the world in very simple black and white, good V evil terms.

Sand

But I can't vote against Bush, not being american, and I can't vote against Bertie, not being registered in his constituency.

So what else can I do, Sand?

We dont vote to elect our leader, we vote for a party candidate, and the largest party/coalition elects their party leader to be our taoiseach. Seeing as FF have had the majority of the seats for a good while they elect Bertie.

For them to elect Bertie they need the most seats. So the best thing to do is note vote for FF candidates and vote for some other party/independant and turn that wonderful protest organising committee into an organisation getting the vote out across the country against Fianna Fail and effecting actual political change.

Or you can show up in a field in county donegal on a rainy morning shouting "Boooo, down with that sort of thing" trying to look comftable with all whacko political extremists hijacking the protest to publicise their own pet peeves.

Its all the same to me so long as youre not causing me any hassle which is not allowed under the constitution, a qualification on your right to free exspression and assembly.

This is the best chance since the invasion and occupation to send a message to the 40 million Irish American voters that we hate Bush period.

Im sure they care, given the economy, their social policies and security rank a bit higher than what we think. Most Irish people wouldnt alter their voting patterns to please Irish-Americans....why expect vice versa?

Well you cant vote for who you want comes election time..buts that's boring

Because you played a part in the anti Bush marketing strategy.

Or you could be a victim of it, couldnt you?

What is waving Palestinian Flags expected to achieve? Why not protest aganist the tactic of suicide bombings?

Because the palestinians have a better PR firm I think. Attacking school buses is an "understandable" act so I hear. If youre not Israeli that is. Then youre an evil son of a bitch, a tool of the imperialist american overlords, so on a so forth.

/me shrugs

Just because theyre protesting doesnt mean theyre any better than the people or policies theyre protesting against.

So the following examples of mass protest were just a waste of everybody's time and had no political or cultural impact whatsoever.

monster meetings.

O connells power came from his support in the House of Commons. He translated a grassroots organisation *into* votes for his supporters. If he was simply leading a mob around and thats it then hed not have accomplished what he set out to do. Thats what Im saying - protests have no point, votes are what count.

The Gandhi thing.

How successful was he in 1906?

1919-22 his peaceful protests degenerated into rioting and violence

The same in 1942.

When India and Pakistan were formed in 1947 the cultural impact of Ghandis creed was they did their best to kill each other and have done so up to present day.

Its actually a point of debate whether Ghandis non violent protest or the "Quit India" rioting in 1942 were what made the British decide India wasnt worth it. The INC organised the quit india campaign. They were Ghandis political party. His protest movement again was a grassroots organisation for the INC. Votes are what counts.

Ive got better things to do than be as detailed with the rest, but if you look at the rest the Civil Rights movement got the tar kicked out of it, when the SDLP came about they got a lot farther than getting gunned down by the British Army and stone throwing. The Vietnam protests caused the pullout from Vietnam? Or was it the fact the cost of the war in terms of casualties, investments and the economic realities (Bretton Woods fell apart at this time If I remember correctly because of the US spending so much on the war and social policies) that caused the pullout?

Now maybe you're special, and if you'd been involved in any of those events you would've forgotten about the whole thing in a day or two but somehow I think anyone who was there would remember a few details.

From TIME - your source on Ghandi

"Resentment of Britain had been replaced by religious hatred. The killing before partition made it inevitable, and the slaughter afterward trampled on his appeals to tolerance and trust. All the village pilgrimages he made in 1946 and 1947 could not stop Muslims and Hindus from killing one another. All the famous fasts he undertook could not persuade them to live permanently in harmony. He blamed himself when Indians rejected the nonviolence he had made a way of life. "

"Gandhi had noted his new irrelevance. "Everybody is eager to garland my photos," he said. "But nobody wants to follow my advice." "

He'll know, big protest don't got unnoticed - what else to you think the 'moral majority' should do? sit back and take it up the @ss?

Why will he care? You have no votes?

Protests are meaningless. Votes are what count. Votes bring about political change.

And even if it conveys to bush that yet another countrys citizens are unconvinced by his policys?

See above.