Bertie and Gerry, is it all over now? (sniff!)

Moriarty

Originally posted by gurramok
How do you/mike define an oldster...as someone over 25 ?

I never defined anyone as an 'oldster', I gave a specific age range.

Originally posted by gurramok
Flogen has not indicated why that SF might pick up votes other than the apathy of youth thing\romantic era.
You will be surprised to learn that the 'The struggles' as Flogen point out have little influence on how votes are won over in the likes of dublin, it would be true for a border county for example.

How old are you? I'm in my early twenties and I know that the above plays a major part in the support Sinn Fein recieves in people I know that are around my age. There's no need to believe me if you don't want to, but its the truth. The same situation has been recognised by many people.

Originally posted by gurramok
The proverbial nail on the head is seriously way off the mark, are you suggesting that past atrocities are glorified by this misguided youth(15-25 in the example) ?

Not glorified as much as simply forgotten or explained away under the excuse that 'the other side did much worse'. Again, I have much personal experience of this happening in people around my age.

Originally posted by gurramok
Problem is no-one else does, at least that's how its felt where i live.

So as long as they represent the underprivalged they're allowed to assault, extort, harass and murder people?

monument

Originally posted by Cork
The IRA does not have membership lists so hard proof is hard to find.

`

By this logic… smart people in power don’t keep a paper trail of any bribes they may have been given, but since it is commonly thought that most in power are corrupt, all must be guilty of taken bribes.


“That it was media exaggeration”

Although the media are dam right to point out wrongs by the IRA

I think it’s quite different, more like media bias. The main media outlets which are have any kind of fairness are the BBC, the Guardian, and maybe the Sunday Tribune, some of the others are some what blind to any thing done wrong by loyalists.

gurramok

Originally posted by Moriarty
How old are you? I'm in my early twenties and I know that the above plays a major part in the support Sinn Fein recieves in people I know that are around my age. There's no need to believe me if you don't want to, but its the truth. The same situation has been recognised by many people.

I'm in my late 20's, its voters of all ages rather than an age group (15-25) that are voting for SF than other parties. As is well known, young people are usually the laziest kind to get out and vote, the recent rise of SF cannot be attributed soley to the above age bracket.

Not glorified as much as simply forgotten or explained away under the excuse that 'the other side did much worse'. Again, I have much personal experience of this happening in people around my age.

I wouldnt quote a sole age bracket, but its all kinds of ages that switched parties.
They certainly didnt vote for SF on their northern policies, they voted for what affected them in their day to day lives here in ROI, not in another country.

So as long as they represent the underprivalged they're allowed to assault, extort, harass and murder people?

By no means i am defending the likes of SF, but from a personal perspective of where i live, the 'assault, extort, harass and murder people' is not at the hands of 'republicans', its at the hands of drugs gangs and low-lifes which has happened in my area, dublin north-west(shall i name the suburb where i live ? ).

ReefBreak

Originally posted by everythinglive
of course gerry adams was a member of the IRA. but he has my vote. Go Sinn Féin!

I would absolutely love to know why you would give your vote (if you had a vote) to Sinn Féin. Go on, give us 5 reasons why. Even if one was to ignore the fact that they have links with an Irish version of Al Qaeda, I still can't think of one single reason to give them my vote.

monument

Originally posted by ReefBreak
I would absolutely love to know why you would give your vote (if you had a vote) to Sinn Féin. Go on, give us 5 reasons why. Even if one was to ignore the fact that they have links with an Irish version of Al Qaeda, I still can't think of one single reason to give them my vote.

Comparing the IRA to Al Qaeda is just stupid; it’s like comparing the US army with their kill-kill attitude to Ireland’s Defence Forces with their restrained attitude (at least on paper).

Al Qaeda want to kill all Americans or westerners, while the IRA haven’t such crazy goals, in fact they don’t even want to kill all Loyalist.

Villain

Originally posted by ReefBreak
I would absolutely love to know why you would give your vote (if you had a vote) to Sinn Féin. Go on, give us 5 reasons why. Even if one was to ignore the fact that they have links with an Irish version of Al Qaeda, I still can't think of one single reason to give them my vote.

What Party do you support??, and give us 5 reasons why while your at it

I was away so hadn't posted for a while but I still can't believe a lot of you assume Gerry was a member of the IRA. Please supply Facts people to support this claim otherwise your talking lies and rubbish.

Now ReefBreak, I've Voted Sinn Fein in the past and will do again and I'ts because I happen to believe in their policies and their commitment to Peace up north.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by monument
Comparing the IRA to Al Qaeda is just stupid; it’s like comparing the US army with their kill-kill attitude to Ireland’s Defence Forces with their restrained attitude (at least on paper).

Al Qaeda want to kill all Americans or westerners, while the IRA haven’t such crazy goals, in fact they don’t even want to kill all Loyalist.

The only difference is scale. Al-Qaeda bombed the Sari club last year resulting in the deaths of over 90 civilians. They did this intentionally with the full knowledge that innocent civilians would die. Now take the last two sentences and apply it to the IRA's bombing of pubs in Birmingham in the 70s, or their bombing of Enniskillen in the 80s, or their bombing of a shopping centre in Warrington in the 90s. I'm not exaggerating when I wonder how a person who votes for Sinn Féin can even sleep at night with the shame, let alone give them their vote.

monument

Originally posted by ReefBreak
The only difference is scale.

You don’t know much about either of them if you think that.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by monument
You don’t know much about either of them if you think that.

Considering that they both argue that terrorist actions that kill civilians are a viable form of creating change, please explain to me why you believe there is more of a difference than just scale, I'm dying to know.

monument

I have...

Originally posted by monument
Comparing the IRA to Al Qaeda is just stupid; it’s like comparing the US army with their kill-kill attitude to Ireland’s Defence Forces with their restrained attitude (at least on paper).

Al Qaeda want to kill all Americans or westerners, while the IRA haven’t such crazy goals, in fact they don’t even want to kill all Loyalist.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by irish1
What Party do you support??, and give us 5 reasons why while your at it

I was away so hadn't posted for a while but I still can't believe a lot of you assume Gerry was a member of the IRA. Please supply Facts people to support this claim otherwise your talking lies and rubbish.

Now ReefBreak, I've Voted Sinn Fein in the past and will do again and I'ts because I happen to believe in their policies and their commitment to Peace up north.

In typical Sinn Féin fashion, you refuse to answer a simple question by dodging the answer or asking another question. Anyway, I'll give you 5 reasons why I voted PD in the last election. And I expect you to return with 5 reasons to vote SF.
- Low-taxation. So successful that it was adopted by FF and FG.
- Pro-competition in all sectors. It's about 100 times easier to hail a cab now.
- Efficient spending of public money.
- No record of corruption among their members. How many members of Sinn Féin have murdered innocent civilians. How many SF TDs have terrorist offences?
- The only party to take on Sinn Féin and their hypocritical snake-tongued double-speak with regards to violence, human rights, etc. I could go on all day with this one. In fact, I would estimate that about 75% of what comes out of a SF TD's mouth is blatant hypocrisy.

So Irish1, please list some of Sinn Féin's policies, including economic policies. Again, I'd love to know why anyone would vote for Sinn Féin.

As for the idea that Gerry Adams was not a member of Sinn Féin? We're not stupid. There are simply too many people (politicians, journalists, civil servants) involved in the peace process over the last 30 years that have claimed he was a senior figure in the IRA for it not to be true. Remember that he was let out of jail in 1972 just so he could join an IRA delegation in Downing Street.

monument

Originally posted by ReefBreak
In typical Sinn Féin fashion, you refuse to answer a simple question by dodging the answer or asking another question…hypocrisy.

Sorry, but did you not just do the same thing?

Originally posted by ReefBreak
As for the idea that Gerry Adams was not a member of Sinn Féin? We're not stupid. There are simply too many people (politicians, journalists, civil servants) involved in the peace process over the last 30 years that have claimed he was a senior figure in the IRA for it not to be true.

Yea, and lets call all politicians and civil servants corrupt because it is widely thought so – btw that’s called hearsay.

Who are these people, do they have proof?

You’re using very twisted logic – because “simply too many people” have said so, it must be true!

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Remember that he was let out of jail in 1972 just so he could join an IRA delegation in Downing Street.

1. speaking on behalf of a group

2. been a member of a group

Please try to see the difference.

1. facts

2. speculation

Again, please try to see the difference.

Villain

Originally posted by ReefBreak
In typical Sinn Féin fashion, you refuse to answer a simple question by dodging the answer or asking another question.

The qustion wasn't directed at me to here you go:
1. I believe in their housing Policy, i.e. everyone should have access to affordable housing. "Increased and sustained funding of local authorities in the 26 counties to provide housing with a target of supplying suitable accommodation within two years for 70 per cent of applicants on the waiting lists"

Funded by "An increase in Capital Gains Tax on speculative owners of multiple dwellings, introduced on a phased basis over two years"

2. The support of Indigenous Enterprise, i.e. more concentration on on homegrown enterprise rather then inward investement.

3. Sinn Féin believe that neutrality must be enshrined in the Constitution I follow agree and support this.

4. Sinn Féin supports the role played CE schemes in providing badly needed services to local communities and in giving many people an opportunity to make the transition from welfare to work

5. Sinn Féin believes in an United Ireland, that the Island of Ireland is united as one.

Originally posted by ReefBreak
How many members of Sinn Féin have murdered innocent civilians.
In fact,

Please supply evidence of this or are you trolling??

Originally posted by ReefBreak
I would estimate that about 75% of what comes out of a SF TD's mouth is blatant hypocrisy

Compared to 90% of PD's, ya?

Originally posted by ReefBreak
As for the idea that Gerry Adams was not a member of Sinn Féin? We're not stupid. There are simply too many people (politicians, journalists, civil servants) involved in the peace process over the last 30 years that have claimed he was a senior figure in the IRA for it not to be true. Remember that he was let out of jail in 1972 just so he could join an IRA delegation in Downing Street.

Oh right so your a sheep and their all sheep so you must follow, I see!

He joined the IRA delegation that was sent to London to try and broker a Peace deal, that doesn't mean he was an active member of the IRA.

Mighty_Mouse

Wow! I know that some of ye anti-shinners would like to make out that all republicans are crazy redicals but some of ye are fuelled with such a hatred that,ye are the ones coming accross as irrational.

Comparing the IRA to the Al Queda is just crazy. Its a lunacy argument and doesnt even merit discussion..

As for the focus on Sinn Fein economic policies and "non-peace proceess" politics I would welcome all the critism that can possible be aimed at them. At least this way poor aul shinners might get a chance to talk about something other than the NI crisis, IRA and Good Friday agreement.

BUT..........if its Sinn Fein's abilty to govern which is being attacked here. You cannot deny the succes and progress made by Sinn Fein in areas such as eduction, healthcare etc etc whilst the government of NI was operating

Sinn Fein are a socialist party and therfore their economic and political ideals are mainly along those lines e.g national focus on business development, "spread the wealth" taxation and economic policies.

PS
sssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhh dont say this too lound ...............but can anybody else sense the fear of God in opposition parties coming towards the local elections!!!!

And before we have to argue how Sinn Fein will never be a major party in the South, how people will never vote for them down here etc etc .........
would anyone care to drag up old debates from before the last general election saying that Sinn Fein would be aniliated in the election. That they would gain any seats etc etc

Im smiling at the lack of similar comments this time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

monument

Originally posted by irish1
Compared to 90% of PD's, ya?

Yea, one of the best I've heard was that they're still left wing party.

Sparks

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Comparing the IRA to the Al Queda is just crazy. Its a lunacy argument and doesnt even merit discussion..

Damn straight! Al Queda is a group of extremist islamic religious fanatics who blow people up to get their way on state policy matters. Whereas the IRA are catholic....

monument

Originally posted by Sparks
Damn straight! Al Queda is a group of extremist islamic religious fanatics who blow people up to get their way on state policy matters. Whereas the IRA are catholic....

:rolleyes:

ReefBreak

Originally posted by monument
:rolleyes:

Over 800 innocent civilians were murdered by the IRA over the course of the troubles.

Villain

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Over 800 innocent civilians were murdered by the IRA over the course of the troubles.

No reply to my 5 reasons, or Have you seen the light now!!

Comparing Al Queda to the IRA shows only one thing: a lack of Knowledge.

Now I'm not talking about scum like the REAL IRA, I'm talking about the IRA that bought Britsih empire to its knees and led to the Republic of Ireland free state being negotiated

ReefBreak

Originally posted by irish1
No reply to my 5 reasons, or Have you seen the light now!!

Comparing Al Queda to the IRA shows only one thing: a lack of Knowledge.

Now I'm not talking about scum like the REAL IRA, I'm talking about the IRA that bought Britsih empire to its knees and led to the Republic of Ireland free state being negotiated

...crikey. For that last comment Irish1, I genuinely feel sorry for you. Have I seen the light? Bloody hell, your 5 reasons for voting SF were pathetic. Was that really the best you could come up with?

- Affordable housing. Yes, very good. Although very idealistic and naive.
- Support of indiginous enterprise. There is already huge support for indiginous enterprise in Ireland. No thanks to Sinn Féin's policies, who's high taxes would decimate indiginous and inward investment.
- Neutrality? Sinn Féin supports neutrality? What a joke. This is the same Sinn Féin with a private terrorist army? The same Sinn Féin that murdered 9 people at La Mon after setting of a horrific fireball during a meeting of the Irish Collie Club? Want me to go on...?
- CE Schemes. You'll need to set up a lot of them after Sinn Féin's Marxist policies destroy our economy and send thousands back to the dole queue.
- United Ireland. Yeah great, whatever. And how are you going to convince the Unionists of this? Note that there has never been a Independant United Ireland before, so why now?

The quality of debate (not to mention the quality of writing) provided by Monument, Irish1 and Might_mouse should convince everyone else of the qualities of Sinn Féin.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by irish1
Please supply evidence of this or are you trolling??

There are a huge number of Sinn Féin members that were convicted for terrorist offences, and were subsequently released under the GFA. Considering over half of IRA victims were civilians with no links to terrorist organisations, you could surmise that over half of the IRA prisoners in jail for murder have murdered innocent civilians.

But you're obviously too young to understand, and have bought hook, line and sinker the "freedom-fighter" propaganda that has been spread by the Shinners. You remind me exactly of the support the IRA received from a significant portion of naive, uneducated, misinformed Irish-America during the 70s, 80s and 90s.

Villain

Originally posted by ReefBreak
There are a huge number of Sinn Féin members that were convicted for terrorist offences, and were subsequently released under the GFA. Considering over half of IRA victims were civilians with no links to terrorist organisations, you could surmise that over half of the IRA prisoners in jail for murder have murdered innocent civilians.

But you're obviously too young to understand, and have bought hook, line and sinker the "freedom-fighter" propaganda that has been spread by the Shinners. You remind me exactly of the support the IRA received from a significant portion of naive, uneducated, misinformed Irish-America during the 70s, 80s and 90s.

Trolling I think is a good conclusion, You making assumptions when I asked for fact, where is the evidience to back you up on "How many members of Sinn Féin have murdered innocent civilians"??

I'm well educated and I haven't bought by anyone, I don't agree with all SF's policies but I agree with a lot of them, if you think the PD's are perfect and all their policies are right then I think your the one that has been bought.

I have a right to choose any Party and I would choose SF over FF, FG or PD any day, I like Pat Rabbite as a leader and think Labour are a good party.

Originally posted by ReefBreak

This is the same Sinn Féin with a private terrorist army

So ReefBreak either supply fact to back up your cliams or stop trolling.

mike65

Irish 1 start taking the pills, please!

Mike.

Villain

Originally posted by mike65
Irish 1 start taking the pills, please!

Mike.

Lol Whys that coz I have a different point of view than you??

monument

ReefBreak, so you were asked above - what party would you vote, and for what five reasons would you do so?

Or are you like "typical Sinn Féin fashion" refusing "to answer a simple question by dodging the answer or asking another question"?

sceptre

Originally posted by monument
Yea, one of the best I've heard was that they're still left wing party.

This thread is probably going to be locked the way it's going so in case it is, here's something to tickle your tummy.

I've heard FF activists swearing blind that FF are socialists as well.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by monument
ReefBreak, so you were asked above - what party would you vote, and for what five reasons would you do so?

Or are you like "typical Sinn Féin fashion" refusing "to answer a simple question by dodging the answer or asking another question"?

You obviously haven't been paying attention Monument. I've given my party and the five reasons. See above.

gandalf

Originally posted by irish1
Now I'm not talking about scum like the REAL IRA, I'm talking about the IRA that bought Britsih empire to its knees and led to the Republic of Ireland free state being negotiated

irish1 the IRA of the War of Independence are a totally different organisation to the murderous thugs of the 1970's, 80's & 90's who called themselves the IRA. And as for the Real IRA, Continunity IRA or the "I can't believe its the" IRA faction they are all the same as the main organisation. The only difference is that the Provo's are on a break (normally someones legs) at the moment.

Until the IRA disband then Sinn Fein should take no part in Government down here. I can see where the main unionist parties are coming from on this. The same treatment should be meeted out to the fringe loyalist parties that have connections to paramilitaries as well.

As for Gerry Adams I personally believe he was a member of the IRA and would not have risen to his position in Sinn Fein without being a member of that paramilitary organisation.

Gandalf.

Villain

Originally posted by gandalf
irish1 the IRA of the War of Independence are a totally different organisation to the murderous thugs of the 1970's, 80's & 90's who called themselves the IRA. And as for the Real IRA, Continunity IRA or the "I can't believe its the" IRA faction they are all the same as the main organisation. The only difference is that the Provo's are on a break (normally someones legs) at the moment.

Well theres so many break aways now, its very hard to say who's carrying out the attacks up north, all I know is that the main IRA are on a ceasefire and have put a lot or arms beyond use. I don't support them and I'm happy there not active.

Originally posted by gandalf

Until the IRA disband then Sinn Fein should take no part in Government down here. I can see where the main unionist parties are coming from on this. The same treatment should be meeted out to the fringe loyalist parties that have connections to paramilitaries as well..

Why should Sinn Fein not take part in Politics down here??. They have a democratic right to stand for election don't they?

Originally posted by gandalf

As for Gerry Adams I personally believe he was a member of the IRA and would not have risen to his position in Sinn Fein without being a member of that paramilitary organisation.

Well your entitled to your opinion Gandalf, but no-one has given any factual evidence to support that claim.

Villain

This was quoted by monument in another thread quite interesting:

Originally posted by monument
I wonder who is carring out more punishment beatings and rising?

It would be the same people - when it comes to the wrongs they do - you are blind to?

"Loyalist violence rising
In answer to a question from Iris Robinson, security Minister Jane Kennedy has released figures for the number of paramilitary beatings were reported in each of the last six years. The Loyalist and Republican figures diverge sharply. Thanks to Gary Kent.
Number of casualties as a result of paramilitary style assaults:

---- By Loyalist ---- By Republican ---- Total

1998 ---- 89 ---- 55 ---- 144

1999 ---- 90 ---- 44 ---- 134

2000 ---- 78 ---- 54 ---- 132

2001 ---- 93 ---- 53 ---- 146

2002 ---- 89 ---- 50 ---- 139

2003 ---- 102 ---- 46 ---- 148"

http://www.sluggerotoole.com/home/archives/002897.asp