Bertie and Gerry, is it all over now? (sniff!)

Cork

Originally posted by gandalf
irish1 the IRA of the War of Independence are a totally different organisation to the murderous thugs of the 1970's, 80's & 90's who called themselves the IRA. And as for the Real IRA, Continunity IRA or the "I can't believe its the" IRA faction they are all the same as the main organisation. The only difference is that the Provo's are on a break (normally someones legs) at the moment.
Gandalf.

I completely agree. How does running aroung with baseball bats bring the prospect of a United Ireland closer? Did 30 years of bombings bring Irish people in Northern Ireland closer together?

Over that period - the SDLP always said - what was needed to be said.

SF could not even condemn planting bombs in trash cans as what happened in Warrington.

Gerry Adams call to release the killers of Gerry McCabe spoke volumes.

I too believe Gerry Adams has had associations with the IRA.

Gandalf has made an excellent point of highlighting that the IRA of the war of independence was not the same IRA of the 1970s,80s,90s and 00s.

Grown men going around with baseball bats - from whatever side of the political devide is wrong.

Why the IRA does not want to disband is because of the rackets. (€,£ &$).

Villain

CORK,

Firsly no-one says Gerry Adams didn't have asociations with the IRA, we all know he did, but being a member and having associations are 2 very different things.

Answer me this Cork, where would the Peace Process be at the moment without Sinn Fein???

I support Sinn Fein i.e I support Politics over Terrorism, I think people are a little ignorant to the difference there when it comes to SF.

gandalf

Originally posted by irish1
Why should Sinn Fein not take part in Politics down here??. They have a democratic right to stand for election don't they?

Well in my book they don't have a right to hold a government position (notice I didn't say they cannot stand for election) if they have a private army behind them. Now whether they are on ceasefire and have put some weapons beyond use they still exist and are a threat in the background.

Once they disband totally then I have no problem with them taking Government positions. (and please don't say if they get a massive vote that they could make up the next government because plainly that will not happen!)

Well your entitled to your opinion Gandalf, but no-one has given any factual evidence to support that claim. [/B]

Well unfortunately the IRA doesn't have any membership lists online

But a brief trawl thru the interweb brings up all sorts of interesting articles!!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/1287262.stm

"But to this day - and it is one of the more unfathomable aspects of the man - he denies ever being in the IRA, even though it would have been impossible for him to have risen to the position he now holds if that were not the case"

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/2002/10/01/stories/2002100100941500.htm

"Gerry Adams behind IRA death squads? "

http://lists.jammed.com/IWAR/1997/12/0031.html

I particularly love this one

"Neither Gerry Adams nor myself are members of the IRA army council. Neither Gerry Adams nor myself are members of the IRA," McGuinness told the program."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/02/print/main524083.shtml

"A history of the Irish Republican Army, published Monday, describes Gerry Adams as the IRA's longest-serving commander - and the mastermind behind a two-decade effort to steer the underground group toward cease-fires and political compromise."

http://www.pro.gov.uk/releases/nyo2004/ni_a.htm

Now this is just a brief trawl thru the net with only a couple of the examples put up here and it looks like alot of others share my views that Mr. Adams wouldn't be in the position he is today unless he was directly involved in the IRA and in a position of leadership within that organisation.

Now without me finding a little card saying "IRA Membership" with Gerry Adams piccie on it I cannot get you hard factual evidence but the circumstantial evidence does point quite strongly that he was and still is involved with the IRA.

Gandalf.

Villain

Originally posted by gandalf
Well in my book they don't have a right to hold a government position (notice I didn't say they cannot stand for election) if they have a private army behind them. Now whether they are on ceasefire and have put some weapons beyond use they still exist and are a threat in the background.

Private Army??, thats a little over the top now, they have links with the IRA, but the IRA isn't there private army, thay don't have control over what the IRA do.

Originally posted by gandalf

Now this is just a brief trawl thru the net with only a couple of the examples put up here and it looks like alot of others share my views that Mr. Adams wouldn't be in the position he is today unless he was directly involved in the IRA and in a position of leadership within that organisation.

Now without me finding a little card saying "IRA Membership" with Gerry Adams piccie on it I cannot get you hard factual evidence but the circumstantial evidence does point quite strongly that he was and still is involved with the IRA.

Gandalf.

Gandalf I don't for a second deny he has had links with the IRA, but no-one can for a FACT that he was a MEMBER of the IRA, if you choose to believe some circumstantial evidence thats your prerogative.

I don't think that SF will form the next Government or anything near it, but they will make gains and I'd put money on that.

As I said to Cork, "where would the Peace Process be at the moment without Sinn Fein??"

Like them or hate them, they have helped bring Peace to this Island.

gandalf

Originally posted by irish1
Private Army??, thats a little over the top now, they have links with the IRA, but the IRA isn't there private army, thay don't have control over what the IRA do.

Well what would you call the IRA, Sinn Feins Gentlemens Club where they all sit around in their smoking jackets drinking brandy chatting about the "good old days" in Long Kesh

Like it or not unless the IRA is disbanded there will always be a dark shadow over Sinn Fein that will and rightly so exclude them from being involved directly in Government here.

Gandalf.

Villain

Originally posted by gandalf
Well what would you call the IRA, Sinn Feins Gentlemens Club where they all sit around in their smoking jackets drinking brandy chatting about the "good old days" in Long Kesh

Like it or not unless the IRA is disbanded there will always be a dark shadow over Sinn Fein that will and rightly so exclude them from being involved directly in Government here.

Gandalf.

lol good one Gandalf, people also see Sinn Fein working for Peace in the north, a lot of people I talk politics with would have always disagreed with my support of SF but there coming around a bit now having seen the IRA decommision a lot of weapons and they know that without SF peace will never happen. There socialists so there ideals don't wash with a lot of people but I think the newer generations see FF and FG as boring and corrupt party's who can't run a health system or get anything infrastructure projects done without major delays and extra expense.

gandalf

Originally posted by irish1
Like them or hate them, they have helped bring Peace to this Island.

Well after you tell your private army to stop shooting & blowing people up then yes you can help bring peace to this island

Gandalf.

monument

I still love how hearsay is being presented as if it was fact – amazing!

And thinking somehow posting links to more speculation will backup your speculation, reminds me of how someone once tried to fool me into thinking an urban myth was true.

ReefBreak, woops, sorry!...

Originally posted by ReefBreak
I'll give you 5 reasons why I voted PD in the last election. And I expect you to return with 5 reasons to vote SF.
- Low-taxation. So successful that it was adopted by FF and FG.
- Pro-competition in all sectors. It's about 100 times easier to hail a cab now.
- Efficient spending of public money.
- No record of corruption among their members.

Low-taxation

Simply untrue, we have taxation spread out (ie not all taken by central taxation); this does not amount to low taxation, but to hidden taxation.

It's about 100 times easier to hail a cab now.

Bad example, there are now a number of problems because of the badly planed "pro-competition" action taken by this government. Including the older licence holders now having to be compensated - which is not "Efficient spending of public money"-, and people with questionable pasts getting licences.

Efficient spending of public money

Like problematic, and costly, projects such as the Luas, and the port tunnel?

I already replied to your fifth reason! :dunno:

Originally posted by ReefBreak
- Affordable housing. Yes, very good. Although very idealistic and naive.

A right wing way of thinking, and a myth.

But it’s very naïve if you were to believe the current promises on housing, more so now that they have put another tax on new houses.

Originally posted by ReefBreak
- Neutrality? Sinn Féin supports neutrality? What a joke. This is the same Sinn Féin with a private terrorist army? The same Sinn Féin that murdered 9 people at La Mon after setting of a horrific fireball during a meeting of the Irish Collie Club? Want me to go on...?

“Sinn Féin that murdered 9 people at La Mon” FFS!

Originally posted by ReefBreak
The quality of debate (not to mention the quality of writing) provided by Monument, Irish1 and Might_mouse should convince everyone else of the qualities of Sinn Féin.

I’ll just speak for myself on this one…

“quality of writing” – is this the ‘English’ board? Or are you referring to something other then actual ‘quality of writing’ (ie my writing skilez)?

I notice I’m not the one that are continuing presenting hearsay as fact.

I’d also like to note that I don’t speak for Sinn Féin, or for that matter I also do not speak for the IRA. And I’m NOT a member of Sinn Féin or the IRA.

So I’m pretty confused as to how my views could show or convince anyone of the “qualities of Sinn Féin”. Could you please enlighten me? (thanks)

mike65

Just a mention that Berie has reiterated his belief that Adams was in the IRA. He said he gleamed this info not from intelligence but from a comment made by Adams in a book/article of some sort. Bertie thinks Gerry may have simply forgotten he'd said it!

Mike.

ReefBreak

OK, last point I'll make on this thread.

Low-taxation
Simply untrue, we have taxation spread out (ie not all taken by central taxation); this does not amount to low taxation, but to hidden taxation.

A recent OECD report showed Ireland to have the 2nd lowest tax rate in Europe.

“Sinn Féin that murdered 9 people at La Mon” FFS!

When La Mon occurred, there was very little separation between the IRA and Sinn Féin. Granted, I should have said the "IRA murdered 9 people at La Mon", but of course, as usual, Sinn Féin refused to condemn the bombing. In fact they defended it as a neccessary means of achieving their aims. Absolutely sickening.

“quality of writing” – is this the ‘English’ board? Or are you referring to something other then actual ‘quality of writing’ (ie my writing skilez)?

More for Irish1, than yourself, because it's bloody annoying: there is a difference between they're, there and their. It's hard to take an argument seriously when the debater doesn't know basic spelling.

Villain

Originally posted by ReefBreak
More for Irish1, than yourself, because it's bloody annoying: there is a difference between they're, there and their. It's hard to take an argument seriously when the debater doesn't know basic spelling.

Well Pardon my feckin English, I suppose you have never made a spelling misake!

You won't take an argument seriously any way because you have been bought by the PD's.

I recently said

but I think the newer generations see FF and FG as boring and corrupt party's who can't run a health system or get any infrastructure projects done without major delays and extra expense

Here we go again, good auld FF and PD's aren't they just doing such a good job:rolleyes:
Ballymun Project to be delayed for 4 years!

I doubt that you could hold Sinn Féin-IRA up as a bastion of goodness in comparison to FG,FF and the Labour party.

Were any of it's members in jail for instance around the time that the corruption by some members of the more established parties being investigated by tribunals was going on?

Gun running is related to the murder/maiming the guns or bombs carry out for instance.
Whereas taking planning bribes is equally related to stealing.
Both are morally corrupt imho.

Now which of the main parties currently have T.D's in Dáil Éireann with current members who have served jail terms??
Indeed which party is the only party with an active member as a T.D who has served a jail term for an action he hasn't condemned to my knowledge?

Villain

Originally posted by Earthman
I doubt that you could hold Sinn Féin-IRA up as a bastion of goodness in comparison to FG,FF and the Labour party.

Was I trying to??

I never said SF was a party that didn't have members that have previous convinctions. I accept there past is not pleasant and I condemn Martin McGuinnes's role in the IRA.

But I believe in SF as a political party, I support a lot of there policies and think they can get things done.

SF may have a dark past but their future is bright, and by bringing about peace in the north I think they will be seen as future alternative to the mis-managament politics of FF/PD.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by irish1
Well Pardon my feckin English, I suppose you have never made a spelling misake!

You won't take an argument seriously any way because you have been bought by the PD's.

I recently said

Here we go again, good auld FF and PD's aren't they just doing such a good job:rolleyes:
Ballymun Project to be delayed for 4 years!

This is another pretty lame argument. What government was in power when the Ballymun flats were built? I don't know, I'm asking. You can hardly blame the current government for an asbestos problem in flats that were built 40 years ago, and during a period when the dangers of asbestos were unknown.

As for your comment about "been bought by the PDs". Yes, of course, I forgot. That Merc I'm driving was given to me by Mary Harney in return for my vote. But seriously, I voted for the PDs because I knew they would keep Ireland's economy stable as we entered a global recession. And all the recent economic indicators have proven me right. I shudder to think what SF's economic policies (those vague Marxists policies that they actually have) would have done to this country.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by irish1
Was I trying to??

I never said SF was a party that didn't have members that have previous convinctions. I accept there past is not pleasant and I condemn Martin McGuinnes's role in the IRA.

But I believe in SF as a political party, I support a lot of there policies and think they can get things done.

SF may have a dark past but their future is bright, and by bringing about peace in the north I think they will be seen as future alternative to the mis-managament politics of FF/PD.

Putting aside the fact that they have convicted terrorists in the party, their policies, particularly their business and economic policies, are almost competely ill-thought-out, out-dated, and vague. A recent post-budget press conference given by Sinn Féin proved this to everyone. "We'd spend money on this, this, this and this. Spend, spend, spend, spend, spend." Journalist: "And where will the money come from?" SF: "Oh well, we don't have access to stats on the country's finances, so we don't actually know yet". Journalist: "But you do have access to stats on the country's finances." SF: "Er..." Etc, etc... The whole thing was laughable beyong belief.

Originally posted by irish1
Was I trying to??

I never said SF was a party that didn't have members that have previous convinctions. I accept there past is not pleasant and I condemn Martin McGuinnes's role in the IRA.

But I believe in SF as a political party, I support a lot of there policies and think they can get things done.

SF may have a dark past but their future is bright, and by bringing about peace in the north I think they will be seen as future alternative to the mis-managament politics of FF/PD.

As was pointed out to you already in this thread, it is easy to bring about peace when your cohorts are responsible for most of the violence.
The peace process wouldnt have been worth a penny candle without the efforts of John Hume, who brought and persuaded Sinn Féin IRA on the road they have travelled.

Whats that famous thing Gerry Adams said again..." they havent gone away you know "

So though John Hume had bent over backwards at the height of the IRA Bombing and shooting campaign to persuade constitutional politicians to give Sinn Féin a chance, Adams was hinting that if we dont get what we want we'll start it all up again.

So you are advocating voting for a party that has indisputable ties to an illegal private army and wont condemn same?
A party that often held closed private sessions at its Árd fheiseanna to discuss the progress of that illegal army's campaign.
Why were the sessions closed by the way???
Something to hide??
Not good , not good at all.

ReefBreak

This should put an end to this debate. From todays Irish Indo:

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=39&si=1136823&issue_id=10519

It was reliably learned afterwards that Mr Ahern's remarks relate to references in a book written by prominent TV journalist Peter Taylor in 1997.

The book said: "In his column the following week, Adams admitted IRA membership. It was the one and only time he has done so. He was recounting a conversation he had recently had with a visiting priest. Adams had defended the use of force, saying it was not a role the IRA chose or welcomed but one that had been forced upon it. 'I tried to explain it all like this,' he wrote.

"'Rightly or wrongly, I am an IRA volunteer and, rightly or wrongly, I take a course of action as a means to bringing about a situation in which I believe the people of my country will prosper . . . The course I take involves the use of physical force but only if I achieve the situation where my people can genuinely prosper can my course of action be seen by me as to have been justified . . . I cannot complain if I am hurt, if I am killed or if I am imprisoned. I must consider these things as possible and probable eventualities . . . I have no one to blame but myself'."

Gerry Adams was lying the other day. Debate over, nothing more to see here.

Villain

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Gerry Adams was lying the other day. Debate over, nothing more to see here.

I don't see the word member there anywhere.

Earthman:

I've stated my reasons for voting for Sinn Fein and I'm not going to defend them again and again because you don't like them, of course the SDLP were one of the main Groups behind the peace process, but Sinn Fein are now the main Nationislist party and they are helping to bring about peace. Also in regards to your comment

As was pointed out to you already in this thread, it is easy to bring about peace when your cohorts are responsible for most of the violence.

---- By Loyalist ---- By Republican ---- Total

1998 ---- 89 ---- 55 ---- 144

1999 ---- 90 ---- 44 ---- 134

2000 ---- 78 ---- 54 ---- 132

2001 ---- 93 ---- 53 ---- 146

2002 ---- 89 ---- 50 ---- 139

2003 ---- 102 ---- 46 ---- 148"

http://www.sluggerotoole.com/home/archives/002897.asp


ReefBreak,

I'm not complaining about the building of the flats, I would love to know what genius the Government has looking after this project that didn't plan for the asbestos being in the building. Great research done there wasn't there.

Originally posted by irish1
I don't see the word member there anywhere.

So its ok to be a volunteer is it?
Can you be a volunteer without being a member?

They are one and the same thing,and trying to post here that they aren't is either naive or laughable or both to be honest.

I've stated my reasons for voting for Sinn Fein and I'm not going to defend them again and again because you don't like them, of course the SDLP were one of the main Groups behind the peace process, but Sinn Fein are now the main Nationislist party and they are helping to bring about peace.

I wouldn't rubbish your personal reasons for voting Sinn Féin but it is reasonable to expect you to defend your reasons and answer questions when you speak about it in a politics forum.
Otherwise, you do your party no favours, as it looks like you are avoiding awkward but legitimately posed questions.
Have you ever wondered for instance that maybe those who in IRA/Sinn Féin carried out 3 decades of bombings and shootings might have had a different agenda other than just a united Ireland?
Keep it going like? And they'll hate each other so much that they'll vote for us?

And as regards punishment beatings, you are defending Republican beatings by saying the loyalists are at it aswell, thats not very good at all...
I dont think its even necessary to point out to you that ,that is not the way civilised societies should work.

Villain

Originally posted by Earthman
Can you be a volunteer without being a member?

Well I think there 2 diffferent things but I'm open to correction on that one, he never denied links with them, but he did deny that he was a memebr.

Originally posted by Earthman

And as regards punishment beatings, you are defending Republican beatings by saying the loyalists are at it aswell, thats not very good at all...

it is easy to bring about peace when your cohorts are responsible for most of the violence..

I was simply pointing out that your statement was not factualy correct. I'm not and never would defend beatings.

What questions have I dodged Earthman?, I have given Policies that I support from SF.

Originally posted by irish1

it is easy to bring about peace when your cohorts are responsible for most of the violence..

I was simply pointing out that your statement was not factualy correct. I'm not and never would defend beatings.

What questions have I dodged Earthman?, I have given Policies that I support from SF.

When I mentioned the violence that the peace process brought to an end, i meant the violence it brought to an end and exactly that ie the bombings and shootings, the majority of which were carried out by the IRA in the thirty years or more of the troubles.
It was easy to put a stop to that when the IRA was responsible for most of it and indirectly responsible for it's tit for tat nature.

Rather than address that point you dodged it, by mentioning violence after the main cease fire which is irrelevant to the question I posed to you.

Well I think there 2 diffferent things but I'm open to correction on that one, he never denied links with them, but he did deny that he was a memebr.

How exactly is being an IRA volunteer and a member two different things?

Villain

Originally posted by Earthman
When I mentioned the violence that the peace process brought to an end, i meant the violence it brought to an end and exactly that ie the bombings and shootings, the majority of which were carried out by the IRA in the thirty years or more of the troubles.
It was easy to put a stop to that when the IRA was responsible for most of it and indirectly responsible for it's tit for tat nature.

Rather than address that point you dodged it, by mentioning violence after the main cease fire which is irrelevant to the question I posed to you.

How exactly is being an IRA volunteer and a member two different things?

Firstly tou never stated what type of Violence, I would call what you were talking about, Terrorism. I didn't dodge your question just misunderstood it because of your termology.

I understand a Volunteer to be someone who offers to help but isn't directly involved, i.e doesn't make decisions etc. As I said I'm open to correction on that one, just my opinion not based on any facts.

Originally posted by irish1
Firstly tou never stated what type of Violence, I would call what you were talking about, Terrorism. I didn't dodge your question just misunderstood it because of your termology.

So answer it

I understand a Volunteer to be someone who offers to help but isn't directly involved, i.e doesn't make decisions etc. As I said I'm open to correction on that one, just my opinion not based on any facts.

Offers to help but isn't directly involved... eh?

What might this help be , baby sitting the kids for the terrorists I suppose :rolleyes:
You don't expect me to believe, that you actually think what you are saying there?
Because if you do, it's a dangerous naevity, through which most people can see very clearly.
People don't fall down from passing showers you know, it's plain as day what an IRA volunteer does you know.
And if you don't actually know... I suggest you read your party newspaper more often.
I don't have a subscription to the online service obviously, but in the section that deals with milltown cemetary in the link I've given you, here is a direct quote.

On Sunday 26 October, hundreds of republicans from the Upper Springfield area of West Belfast marched from Turf Lodge to the Republican Plot in Milltown Cemetery to remember the IRA Volunteers and Sinn Féin members who have given their lives in the struggle for Irish freedom.

Now there it is in black and white in An Poblacht.
As I said, perhaps you shouldn't be saying things here as if we all came down in the last shower.

Villain

Originally posted by Earthman
Now there it is in black and white in An Poblacht.
As I said, perhaps you shouldn't be saying things here as if we all came down in the last shower.

I prefer SinnFein.ie!

Look Earthman, I condemn Violence and terrorism I condemn killings by anyone that includes the IRA or Sinn Fein.

I support Sinn Fein because I have a right to free choice and to vote for who ever I like.

Now if your well educated which I imagine you are, you will know the history of northern Ireland is very complex, Yes there are members of the party I supprt that have been members of the IRA and that have committed grave crimes.

But they have now chosen to join a Politicial party and to use politics to achieve their aim, I commend them for that.

But I guess you'd rather they just rotted in jail, which is a valid point.

I support Sinn Fein because I have a right to free choice and to vote for who ever I like.

Of course, it is your right, we live in a democracy, which incidently has no place for private armies.

I just challenged some of your posts, thats all, and you have chosen not to answer those challenges,I'll let everyone judge for themselves on why.

Villain

Originally posted by Earthman
Of course, it is your right, we live in a democracy, which incidently has no place for private armies.

I just challenged some of your posts, thats all, and you have chosen not to answer those challenges,I'll let everyone judge for themselves on why.

I haven't choosen to ignore any challenges, I'm stating my support for Sinn Fein not the IRA, you just can't see the difference.


/edited for typo's

STaN

Sinn Féin faces fresh challenge

Well Irish1, you wont blame me then for having the same regard for your assertion that Sinn Féin and the IRA are not linked as I have for your assertion that an IRA volunteer is not a an IRA member.

I've no doubt that the Sinn Féin vote will grow, their vote management skills are a credit to them, but this is limited, as the IRA connection while they are still active and hiding arms is a millstone around their necks.

It is essentially a cap on their potential vote as terrorist links do smell bad for the average voter.

Typedef

Until you can 'prove' something, things like this are called witch hunts.

Down with these Kangaroo court threads.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by Typedef
Until you can 'prove' something, things like this are called witch hunts.

Down with these Kangaroo court threads.

We've already proven Gerry Adams was in the IRA - see the reference to Peter Taylor's book above.

"Rightly or wrongly, I am an IRA volunteer..." etc, etc.