Bertie and Gerry, is it all over now? (sniff!)

Cork

Originally posted by rasper

Thats democracy

Where is shooting members of the Gardai dead on the streets of Adare demoracy?
What has running around with baseball bats clobbering people to do with democracy?
What havefuel rackets costing the Irish exchequer many € to with democracy?

When has SF/IRA choosen democracy over its millitary wing?

Scandals have caused mush damage to politics in Ireland but there is no greater scandal than the mindless tit for tat violence that went on in this country for 30 years.

It achieved nothing but hurt and devision.

rasper

Thats democracy

My meaning was that it's the right for everyone themselves to choose, and not to be dictated to as if we can't make an educated decision ourselves

Yes, Adare was cold blooded murder of the same level as killing a mentally ill man only dangerous to himself (Abbeylara).

Running around clobbering people with baseball bats (or batons,May day)

As with the fuel rackets, well that's really as much the fault of the demander as with the supplier.
Same as drugs, dodgy zoning permits, corporate funded golfing trips, elaborate expense accounts,
etc, etc.
We live in a twisted world where only certain wrongs are not right.



While I agree 30yrs of the ****e didn't get anyone anyway, as Seamus Mallon said "Sunningdale for slow learners".
The fact remains the Provisionals are on ceasefire for nearly ten years,
of course there're rogue elements however it should be noted that without the strong SF leadership we'd still be reading about bodies on streets.
We shouldn't underestimate that how ugly and antagonistic life can get up there. Imagine the anger and hatred a close knit community/family/friends feel when a person is killed of a jersey they wear, pub they leave or direction they're walking.
Works both ways as well.
It's amazing the IRA have stayed relatively quiet despite no real political progress.

Cork

Originally posted by rasper

It's amazing the IRA have stayed relatively quiet despite no real political progress.

SF/IRA have got to take their share of blame for the lack of progress. Continued recruitment, punishment beatings and rackets point to the fact that the IRA have got gone away.

Gerry Adams has even pointed this out.

The fact remains the Provisionals are on ceasefire for nearly ten years,
of course there're rogue elements however it should be noted that without the strong SF leadership we'd still be reading about bodies on streets.
QUOTE]

But SF/IRA are effectively linked.

monument

Originally posted by sceptre
Even accepting your definition for the moment I'd like to hear why you say this in particular is so.

I wasn’t referring to the events which happened recently in a Belfast pub, wasn’t even thinking about it at the time, rather it was a common example of a lower act which causes terror.

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
When has SF/IRA choosen democracy over its millitary wing?

Well, gee, I dunno. What actions of the military wing in the Republic of Ireland can you point to that show that SF as a political party in the Republic of Ireland choose terrorism over democracy?

It achieved nothing but hurt and devision.

And your solution is the non-divisive approach of what? Refusing to acknowledge that people can vote for a political party that the law recognises and has not banned? Thats really non-divisive of you.

jc

Villain

Originally posted by Cork

When has SF/IRA choosen democracy over its millitary wing?

Correct me if I'm wrong here but are the IRA not on a ceasefire?? Are Sinn Fein not taken part in Politics north and south of the border???

I think your a little confused there Cork!

Originally posted by Cork

Scandals have caused mush damage to politics in Ireland but there is no greater scandal than the mindless tit for tat violence that went on in this country for 30 years.

It achieved nothing but hurt and devision.

You mean compared to the scandals of corruption in the major Political party's here in Ireland?? Was there not a few members of you favourite party, FF, involved in Gun Running Cork??

mike65

JOHN HUME has said he believes Gerry Adams was a member of the Provisional IRA and is puzzled by the Sinn Fein leader’s denial of paramilitary involvement.

The former leader of the SDLP, echoing a recent controversial remark by the taoiseach, said: “I always assumed he (Adams) was in the IRA and I am sure that everybody did. Maybe what (Adams) is saying is that he is not a member of it now. Of course, once a person denies something it is hard to stop.”

The accusation, from the architect of the peace process, further undermines the Sinn Fein leader’s insistence that he was not in the terrorist organisation. After Bertie Ahern’s allegation last month, Adams said: “I was not and I am not. He is wrong.”

Ahern and Hume’s belief in Adams’ past membership of the IRA is shared by the British government and borne out by the organisation itself. The IRA clearly identified Adams as a “senior officer of the Belfast Brigade” in a book it published in 1973.

The issue of Adams’s paramilitary past is to become a feature of the forthcoming local and European elections in the republic. Fianna Fail is determined to undermine Sinn Fein by pointing up its links to the IRA. Ahern’s party is closely competing with Sinn Fein for seats, especially on Dublin councils, and candidates are set to be briefed on the weaknesses of Sinn Fein rivals in their constituencies.

“Everyone in here believes it is about time that Fianna Fail launched a war of words on Sinn Fein,” said a senior party strategist overseeing the election campaign. “It is time the public was reminded of Sinn Fein, its past associations and present stance. We will not let them forget that there are still questions that need answering where the IRA is concerned.”

Evidence that Adams was in the IRA is contained in Freedom Struggle, the movement’s own account of its early history. It has an introduction written by P O’Neill, the pseudonym used by the Provisional IRA when it issues statements. Despite being banned in Northern Ireland and the republic, the book was reprinted at least twice and each time the confirmation of Adams’ IRA membership was retained.

In its account of the 1972 peace talks between the IRA and the British government in Chelsea, the book says that the terms for the talks were passed to the British government by Hume and Paddy Devlin, another senior SDLP member. The second of five conditions listed by the IRA read: “The immediate release of a senior officer of the Belfast Brigade from internment.”

Last night Hume confirmed that Adams was the only person released from internment as a condition of the talks.

Adams refers to this in his autobiography, Before the Dawn, in which he writes of his joy at being released and gives an account of the talks which followed.

Sean MacStiofain, the then IRA chief of staff, led the republican delegation. He later stated in an interview with a republican magazine, The Blanket, that all delegation members were in the Provisional IRA.

Full article here-
www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,2765-1028783,00.html

Mike.

Cork

Originally posted by bonkey
Well, gee, I dunno. What actions of the military wing in the Republic of Ireland can you point to that show that SF as a political party in the Republic of Ireland choose terrorism over democracy?


And your solution is the non-divisive approach of what? Refusing to acknowledge that people can vote for a political party that the law recognises and has not banned? Thats really non-divisive of you.

jc

I acknowledge that people can vote for a political party that the law recognises.

Bonkey, how much is cigarette & diesel smuggling costing the Irish exchequer?

Most IRA activity is in the northern part of this county - should we turn a blind eye to the punishment beatings?

gurramok

Most IRA activity is in the northern part of this county - should we turn a blind eye to the punishment beatings?

Since when did the 6 counties join the republic ?

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
I acknowledge that people can vote for a political party that the law recognises.

Sure, but you are constantly complaining about it.

Bonkey, how much is cigarette & diesel smuggling costing the Irish exchequer?

Cork, please provide a link from a criminal convicted of these crimes, through to the political orgnaisation Sinn Fein that does not rely at some point on supposition, presumption or assumption of guilt.

In other words, show that the people convicted of these crimes are admitted/proven members of the IRA, and that they were acting under orders. Show that they were not a member of any splinter-group from the IRA, or if they were that you can prove that such a group is still, in fact, linked to Sinn Fein.

Until you do, then your argument holds exactly no water as it entirely ridicules the notion of "innocent until proven guilty" which is supposed to be as sacred a concept in our nation as the ideal of democracy that you are so desperately trying to defend here.

I would also point out that I don't see you calling for the same treatment for a political party where there is convictions, guilt, and undeniable association to the crime of gun-running. Strange that.

Whats the term I'm thinking of, I wonder? "Double Standards", I think it is.

I'm just wondering what your platitude will be on this one. "Water under the bridge" perhaps? Maybe "isn't it time we left the past behind us" ?? No? Maybe another dose of "assuming the moral high ground" or "affecting moral indignation" ??????

should we turn a blind eye to the punishment beatings?

Well, tell me what you propose then Cork, rather than simply putting these pointless questions out as some sort of an answer. What non-divisive approach do you have to suggest to move the peace process further whilst dealing with these issues?

Would you like us to, perhaps, throw Sinn Fein out of government, both here and in the North, in order to encourage the IRA to give up its violent ways???

Or maybe you'd like us to just engage in a publicity campaign to sling mud (even if the mud is based on truth) at a political party with growing support. That would really help heal the rifts.

Or maybe we should just give it a bit more of the old "give up the violence, and the punishment beatings, and get involved in responsible crime like gun-running in order to be more acceptable" ????

No?

Go on. Surprise me. Show that you have an actual idea of how to move this forward, and aren't simply parroting the stance that Fianna Fail is taking right now with its current "tough man" approach to bluster.

jc

Sparks

Originally posted by bonkey
I would also point out that I don't see you calling for the same treatment for a political party where there is convictions, guilt, and undeniable association to the crime of gun-running. Strange that.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you bonkey, but are you talking about CJH or Martin Ferris?

Cork

Originally posted by bonkey


Go on. Surprise me. Show that you have an actual idea of how to move this forward, and aren't simply parroting the stance that Fianna Fail is taking right now with its current "tough man" approach to bluster.

jc

Political Institutions in Northern Ireland have to be re-established & worked by all parties.

SF will have to taking up their seats on the policing board.

There will have to be an end to illegal activities such as punishment beatings.

In short - trust will have to be built between communities.

But SF & the DUP have got to work the Good Friday Agreement.

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
There will have to be an end to illegal activities such as punishment beatings.

BRILLIANT!!!!

I ask how this can be brought about , and the answer is "it will have to happen".

At the risk of being insulting Cork, do you just not understand what the word "how" means, or is it that you think that the rest of us don't, and that we therfore won't notice that you're completely avoiding the question you were actually asked.

In short - trust will have to be built between
communities.

Keyword : between. Your entire "solution" is to say 'the Republicans should just put everything aside and put their trust in a process and an opposition that they have no reason to trust. And when asked how this should work, you simply re-state that it is required, as though that explains everything.

If you acknowledge that trust doesn't exist, then how in the name of all that you hold dear can you honestly expect one side to trust the other....which is what your "the IRA must..." and "Sinn Fein must..." proclamations are fundamentally saying??

But there I go asking how again.......which apparently is a waste of time.

But SF & the DUP have got to work the Good Friday Agreement.

YES!!!!! For once you mentioned both sides being responsible. Outstanding. Unfortunately, you don't say how this is to be done....which is all anyone wants to know.

Cork, at the end of the day, your solution still boils down to little more than saying "if the republicans put violence behind them, we would have peace".

If you were slightly less specific about it, that would turn into the incredibly insightful and meaningful "if people weren't violent, there would be an end to violence".

And throughout all of this, you still haven't offered a single how.

All you do is parrot that it must happen and that it should happen, but you haven't offered a single insight into how to make it happen which is - strangely enough - the only stumbling block that the peace process really suffers from....

Somehow, though, I'm not surprised.

jc

Villain

Cork care to comment on my earlier post??

Posted by Irish1
You mean compared to the scandals of corruption in the major Political party's here in Ireland?? Was there not a few members of you favourite party, FF, involved in Gun Running Cork??

Cork

Originally posted by irish1
Cork care to comment on my earlier post??

FF saw the futility of violence and choose the political path.

Originally posted by bonkey


Cork, at the end of the day, your solution still boils down to little more than saying "if the republicans put violence behind them, we would have peace".
jc

Bonkey, If the IRA disbanded tomorrow morning - Northern Ireland would still be devided.

The effects of 30 years of violence (on all sides) will take time to heal.

SF and the DUP will have to work together to sort this one out. Compromise will be hard.

Solutions: The forthcoming EU and UK elections won't help.

But partys will be looking at these.

SF and the DUP will have to learn to work together. Both partys will have to learn to compromise and to get away from polarised and hardlined positions.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
FF saw the futility of violence and choose the political path.

That's not what happened. FF tried politics, lost a democratic vote, took to violence, and started a civil war.
And even after they went back to politics again, they came within a narrow margin of starting another anglo-irish war in the 70's, did deploy troops in N.Ireland at the time, and funded the provos.

Solutions:

Finally! Cork is giving a valid suggestion as to how to do something!

The forthcoming EU and UK elections won't help.
But partys will be looking at these.
SF and the DUP will have to learn to work together. Both partys will have to learn to compromise and to get away from polarised and hardlined positions.

Ah. No, you're not, are you
Oh well....

monument

Originally posted by Cork
Bonkey, If the IRA disbanded tomorrow morning - Northern Ireland would still be devided.

The effects of 30 years of violence (on all sides) will take time to heal.

Good on you, so the IRA should not just be disbanded right now - at least one result of such could be more splinter groups and/or more support and actions by hard-line groups.

However, focus should be put on disarming all sides, and getting the northern government up and running.

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
Bonkey, If the IRA disbanded tomorrow morning - Northern Ireland would still be devided.

Cork...thats what I've been saying.

You've stopped trying to answer a question by offering the same comment which prompted the question, and now you're offering me my reason for asking teh question as some sort of response to it?

The effects of 30 years of violence (on all sides) will take time to heal.

Yes, on all sides. Again, thats what I've been pointing out.

You've been saying that the path to a solution is for one side to completely give up all of the insecurities and mistrust it has.....which is about as realistic as Santa and the Tooth Fairty having a rave in my living room tomorrow night.

It (your "solution", not my rave), is also contradictory, because you admit that such trust is lacking and will take time...but you want a result of the building of trust to be one of the precursors to build it.

Solutions:

Your understanding of that word would seem to be as suspect as your understanding of the word "how"
:rolleyes:

jc

Villain

Originally posted by Cork
FF saw the futility of violence and choose the political path.

Oh right like Sinn Fein, so FF have got a lot in common then Cork.

Well if thats all this thread achieves I'm happy.

mike65

Ever wish you had'nt started a thread......? :ninja:

Mike.

Sparks

From BreakingNews.ie:

Sinn Féin has condemned Justice Minister Michael McDowell after he likened the party to the Nazis.
Mr McDowell warned the people of Ireland not to do as those in Germany had when they voted for the Nazis in the 1930s.
The minister said people should not vote for those who dealt in politics and violence in June’s European and local elections.
“When it comes to the next election, we shouldn’t do what the people of Germany did in the 1930s when they elected to office people that liked having it both ways – the brown shirts and the Nazis which were a threat to democracy,” he said.
Mr McDowell said the IRA was heavily involved in organised crime in Dublin and the organisation’s Army Council and Sinn Féin were aware of this.

Methinks someone's getting worried over the June elections...

gandalf

LOL now that is funny Herr Flick calling others Nazi's.

But I do think he has a point until the IRA disband no one should waste their vote on Sinn Fein.

(of course they shouldn't waste their votes on the PD's or FF either!!!)

Gandalf.

Villain

McDowell should shut his trap.

God he talks a lot of rubbish, fear is obviously growing as the elections come nearer.

Question is would the Minister prefer people voted for FF who made the Mafia look like Monks or Nazi like Sinn Fein ??

He also said that senior members of Sinn Fein were on the IRA army council, I'd like to the facts he's basing these claims on!

He also went on to say

Mr McDowell also claimed his own family had done more to forward struggle for a united Ireland than the family of Mr Adams ever had.

The minister said his uncle Brian was shot fighting for the republicans in the civil war while other family members had risked their lives fighting for the Free State Army.

"My grandfather Eoin MacNeill was sentenced to life imprisonment and he established the Irish volunteers, Oglaigh na hEireann," he added.

"When I look at people who now say I am anti-republican, I repeat that I am more republican than anyone in Sinn Fein," he said.

He added: "I think the IRA and the Provos have bastardised republicanism completely."

:rolleyes:

ReefBreak

Originally posted by irish1
McDowell should shut his trap.

God he talks a lot of rubbish, fear is obviously growing as the elections come nearer.

Question is would the Minister prefer people voted for FF who made the Mafia look like Monks or Nazi like Sinn Fein ??

He also said that senior members of Sinn Fein were on the IRA army council, I'd like to the facts he's basing these claims on!

He also went on to say
:rolleyes:

Excellent stuff from McDowell. I agree with him 100%. Sinn Féin are indeed the closest thing we have to an Irish Nazi Party. Plus it's well known that senior members of Sinn Féin are indeed on the IRA army council. Like the fact that Gerry Adams was in the 'RA, there is simply too much evidence for it to be otherwise.

BTW:
Nazi = Socialist + Nationalist = Sinn Féin.

Villain

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Excellent stuff from McDowell. I agree with him 100%. Sinn Féin are indeed the closest thing we have to an Irish Nazi Party. Plus it's well known that senior members of Sinn Féin are indeed on the IRA army council. Like the fact that Gerry Adams was in the 'RA, there is simply too much evidence for it to be otherwise.

Can you please provide a link to this evidence please?

Originally posted by ReefBreak

BTW:
Nazi = Socialist + Nationalist = Sinn Féin.

You mean like Mafia = FF

Liking Sinn Fein to the nazi's is both stupid and laughable.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by irish1
Can you please provide a link to this evidence please?

Ed Moloney's, Secret History of the IRA. Peter Taylor's Provos. That's just a small sample.

Originally posted by irish1
You mean like Mafia = FF

Liking Sinn Fein to the nazi's is both stupid and laughable.

Why? Both Sinn Féin/IRA and the Nazis are/were groups with a fascist organisation that responded to dissent by torturing and killing people. They both have a very strong anti-semitic history (see A Great Hatred, written and presented by Simon Sebag-Montefiore on Channel 4 from a few years back). And of course they're both socialist/nationalist.

Your response to another justified claim (that the IRA and Al-Qaeda are very similar) was the same: it's daft, it's stupid, it's laughable, etc. Personally, I think it's just not good enough to say this without any reason why. Unless that's the best you can come with?

Incidently on morning Ireland this morning Mr Mc Dowell repeated his claim that as he put it " Household" names at the top of Sinn Féin were also on the army council of the IRA.

He said he was available any time to debate the issue with them on morning Ireland.

It's heating up

Villain

Originally posted by ReefBreak
You're response to the justified claim that the IRA and Al-Qaeda are very similar was the same: it's daft, it's stupid, it's laughable, etc. Personally, I think it's just not good enough to say this without any reason why. Unless that's the best you can come with?

I believe each group is unique, the Nazi's slaughted thousands of inocent people basically for ethic cleansing, The IRA carried out terrorist activity to achieve their goal of reuniting the island of Ireland.

Now I'm not going to say the IRA were right, but they were trying to regain something that was taken away by an Empire that killed innocent people and threw them off their own the land. They were not carrying out Ethnic Cleansing

I juts don't think you can compare the 3 groups.

What about FF being like Mafia??

Originally posted by irish1


Now I'm not going to say the IRA were right, but they were trying to regain something that was taken away by an Empire that killed innocent people and threw them off their own the land. They were not carrying out Ethnic Cleansing

:eek: :eek: :eek:


The enniskillen bomb wasn't ethnic cleansing??

Mighty_Mouse

Whatever you think about Sinn Fein etc you have to acknowledge that the current Minister for Justice!!!!! is being allowed to make wild accusations without proof.

Does anyone think this is acceptable. What if he started saying:

"the travelling community should be banned from all pubs cos the cause trouble"

" Refugees are responsible for 90% of crime in Ireland today"

"the praction of bribes and corruption is widespread in the Gardai today"(couldnt resist!)

etc etc (Because he's making comparable statements about Sinn Fein)

Not that he has made the above statements. But if he did.............everybody in this forum would be up in arms asking him to provide proof, evidence, accuse him of bigotry etc

I mean for ffs!! This is the Minister for Justice! Its not right that he should be allowed to make crazy accusations and then refuse to substantiate them.

But BECAUSE its the Shinners, everyone in here agrees with the man.

He's a raving lunatic but in too powerful a position, in our so called domocracry, to be one!!!!!!!!!

Its actually quite scary how people think his comments are acceptable!!!

This craic of comparing Sinn Fein to the Nazis is completely off the wall and BTW

Nazi = Socialist + Nationalist = Sinn Féin.

is just stupidity. Are all socialists/nationalists Nazis!!!!!!
:eek:

Its another Al Queda like the IRA comparison!!! Which to this point Ive ignnored.

Are all of ye people completely off the wall.

As a Sinn Fein supporter I can see a million issues and agendas people could pursue to a much greater degree of success in tackling Sinn Fein.

This focus on crazy statements will never work and June is going to prove it.
Take a leaf from the SDLP's mistakes for gods sake !!!

Reffbreak:

Like the fact that Gerry Adams was in the 'RA, there is simply too much evidence for it to be otherwise.

Oh good! Can you enlighten us?