Bertie and Gerry, is it all over now? (sniff!)

Sparks

And this whole story just keeps on getting better....

From RTE:

The Taoiseach has said he agrees with Justice Minister Michael McDowell's view that the Provisional IRA has been involved in criminality at Dublin Port.

Speaking to journalists, Mr Ahern said these issues must be a matter of serious concern.

When asked about Mr McDowell's view that some of the household names from Sinn Féin were on the IRA Army Council, Mr Ahern said he was not aware of this and that he personally did not know.

Sparks

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Yes I did.
There are different slants on everything. Martin Ferris was involved in helping communities campaign against drugs infecting their areas, dealing with social issues etc etc .
martin Ferris never beat anyone and neither did the IRA. Sure enough some drug dealer got a kicking but how do you know that wasnt some drug using13 yr olds father, another drug dealer, etc etc
As regards prooving you wild accusation. The Gardai decided against charges, choosing instead harrassment.

You'll have to excuse my cynicism at that statement. I'm from that area you see, as are my family for several generations back. And to use the vernacular, the dogs on the street know who and what Ferris is. The man is a convicted gun-runner, an ex-IRA member (so far as anyone can be ex-IRA), and if neither he nor IRA members on his behalf kidnapped anyone, it was a damn fine coincidence that things happened the way they did.

Again, can you provide and links to information where men have been convicted of membership of the IRA and beating someone to death in the last 10 yrs with a sledgehammer? (dont go quoting Hugh Order or McDowell suspicions)

You're quite right - it tends to be rebars or baseball bats, doesn't it?

Because off the top of my head I cant remember such an incident.

Cast your mind back to a friday night in a belfast city pub a week or so ago.

Im not saying theres been no punishment beatings. But the figure quoted is overstated.

What figure?
And for the record - one is too many.

Again, there is a sectarian police force in Northern Ireland. What are republicans supposed to do only police their own areas. They can hardly call the cops !!!!!!!!

So the PSNI is sectarian because there aren't any catholics and that's why Sinn Fein won't get involved? Of course, so obvious. I was so cynical to think that they wouldn't get involved because half of them are the ones the cops would be running down...

Implement Patten and punishment beatings will stop .

Where I come from, that'd be a threat and the response would generally not be pretty. And I think that's the problem - you genuinely don't see it for the threat it is, do you?

Mighty_Mouse

the dogs on the street know who and what Ferris is. The man is a convicted gun-runner, an ex-IRA member (so far as anyone can be ex-IRA),

Whoa! Where did you sniff out that piece of Gold information Columbo. Ring the papers quick!!

[/QUOTE] and if neither he nor IRA members on his behalf kidnapped anyone, [/QUOTE]

Ferris is an example of an ex-IRA man who similar to the majority of republicans realise that the political struggle is the way forward.

Even if you happen to believe he is still the biggest IRA man in the world,
Do you honestly believe that in the middle of a political campaign; Martin Ferris would be dirtying his hands tying up drug dealers and beating them up. Or he would get some friends to do it?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you completely effin crazy or something. The man was found completely innocent and rightly so.

PS.........congrats to you local area for voting for Martin and helping him to top the poll.

[/QUOTE] it was a damn fine coincidence that things happened the way they did.[/QUOTE]

Sorry to bore all the anti-Sinn Fein with the whole innocent til proven guilty lark! I know its just such a pain in the ring for all of ye.

Whats coincidental about a community reacting angrily to the selling of drugs to 13 yr old kids!!!

Where I come from, that'd be a threat

Dont be completely ridiculous!!! Punishment beatings have developed because republican society has had no police force. After waiting for 30 years do you honestly think that Sinn Fein are better signing up to a change of uniform.

You cant blame people for wanting to deal with things by not involving the police if there is no police force worth turning to.

Its simple as that. Give republicans a choice of calling the police force.

Not that anybody is rushing to understand the Shinners position after Hugh Orde ousts himself for what he is and represents with his comments the last couple of weeks.

Cast your mind back to a friday night in a belfast city pub a week or so ago.

Im casting .................................sorry no. You'll have to be more specific here sparks. You wouldnt want to become like our Minister for Justice. making it up as you go along ....................

And for the record - one is too many.

Yes the moral high ground is a lovely view. Right up there with "why cant everyone get along!"

So the PSNI is sectarian because there aren't any catholics and that's why Sinn Fein won't get involved?

Yes the solution to the unionist-bigotted-RUC is for loads of catholics to join it as is. The same structures, same RUC men, RUC detectives, RUC seargents, RUC commissioners, RUC structures etc.

Why o why do people argue for this. Whats the problem with starting again from scratch. A completely new police force with 50-50 from the start. Why is there any objection to this. Surely this is a better solution.

Remember in your rush to berate the Shinners for not suppporting the PSNI/RUC. There are whole areas in NI where republican familys have NEVER called the RUC because it would lead to be shot by the UVF or some other loyalist group. There are RUC/PSNI men still working today responsible for murder, torture of catholics for no reason.

So for the above reasons why not create a completely new fair and democratic police force? Created for the people of all of NI?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Sparks

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Whoa! Where did you sniff out that piece of Gold information Columbo. Ring the papers quick!!

You're feeling mighty lucky, are you? Somehow I don't think Ferris would welcome such attention being put on him...

Ferris is an example of an ex-IRA man who similar to the majority of republicans realise that the political struggle is the way forward.

Ferris is an animal. Nothing nobler than that.

Do you honestly believe that in the middle of a political campaign; Martin Ferris would be dirtying his hands tying up drug dealers and beating them up. Or he would get some friends to do it?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, and I don't believe that Sinn Fein would "vote early, vote often" either. :rolleyes:

Are you completely effin crazy or something. The man was found completely innocent and rightly so.

So was OJ.

PS.........congrats to you local area for voting for Martin and helping him to top the poll.

Funny how the local areas that most support Ferris are the same areas with the highest number of ex-cons living there, and that that area is a recruiting ground for the IRA, isn't it?

Whats coincidental about a community reacting angrily to the selling of drugs to 13 yr old kids!!!

Nothing. What's coincidental is that just when Ferris needs the votes, a likely suspect is shoved into a car, driven into the wilds and has the stuffing kicked out of him by several men, who then plant drugs on him (makes you wonder who was doing the actual selling, that they'd have them, doesn't it?) and throws him out of the car.

Note - "likely suspect". Not "guilty party".
And you can be damn sure Ferris was taking the credit for that little act of violence in all the appropriate places.

Dont be completely ridiculous!!! Punishment beatings have developed because republican society has had no police force.

Actually, they do. It's called the PSNI. Just because Sinn Fein don't want to get involved doesn't mean that a new police force will get made up for them, so feck off for yourself.

Yes the moral high ground is a lovely view. Right up there with "why cant everyone get along!"

Oh, I'm so sorry, I didn't realise that it was so ****ing hard not to beat people with iron bars. I guess I'm just special, that I don't go around doing it myself. I must remind myself more often - "Sparks, you're special because you don't go around beating people to a pulp with rebars and baseball bats with a gang of thugs".
:rolleyes:

Yes the solution to the unionist-bigotted-RUC is for loads of catholics to join it as is. The same structures, same RUC men, RUC detectives, RUC seargents, RUC commissioners, RUC structures etc.

Gee, I see what you mean - if loads of catholics joined, why, there wouldn't be any catholic representation in the PSNI, would there?

Whats the problem with starting again from scratch. A completely new police force with 50-50 from the start. Why is there any objection to this. Surely this is a better solution.

Yeah, let's get rid of the RUC and bring in a new force. Let's give it a powerful ombudsman to investigate complaints, let's change the name and uniform to reflect a departure from the old RUC, let's start a recruiting drive for both sides of the community and let's try to get both political sides involved..... oh wait. They did that already.
:rolleyes:

Meh

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Whoa! Where did you sniff out that piece of Gold information Columbo. Ring the papers quick!!

Uh, the papers already know that Martin Ferris was convicted of gun-running.

Even if you happen to believe he is still the biggest IRA man in the world,
Do you honestly believe that in the middle of a political campaign; Martin Ferris would be dirtying his hands tying up drug dealers and beating them up. Or he would get some friends to do it?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you completely effin crazy or something. The man was found completely innocent and rightly so.

Dont be completely ridiculous!!! Punishment beatings have developed because republican society has had no police force.

So on one hand, you're saying that republicans have no connection whatsoever with punishment beatings. On the other, you're saying that republicans are justified in using punishment beatings because they can't depend on the police. As fine an example of doublethink as you'll find in anything by Orwell.

Yes the moral high ground is a lovely view.

It's better than lying in the gutter with thieves, murderers and terrorists.

Villain

Originally posted by Sparks


Yeah, let's get rid of the RUC and bring in a new force. Let's give it a powerful ombudsman to investigate complaints, let's change the name and uniform to reflect a departure from the old RUC, let's start a recruiting drive for both sides of the community and let's try to get both political sides involved..... oh wait. They did that already.
:rolleyes:

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but aren't the majority of high ranking officers ex RUC people.

No point having loads of Nationlist indians if the Chiefs are all Unionists, *******who were formely in collusion with the Loyalists********* is there??(*Unpoven, I retract that statement)

Everyone is throwing around a lot accusations without proof, Ferris was found inoccent or does innocent not fit in with your point of view.

Cork

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse


martin Ferris never beat anyone and neither did the IRA.

Are you saying the IRA never beat anyone?

Fair play to Michael McDowell in exposing the myth of SF/IRA. Hopefully, he'll let us know the full "Dublin Port" activities.

Is Gerry still flabbergasted about it all.

John Hume hit the nail on the head in yesterdays Sunday Times with regards to Adams.

His loss from the political stage is surely missed.

Meh

Originally posted by irish1
Everyone is throwing around a lot accusations without proof, Ferris was found inoccent or does innocent not fit in with your point of view.

This isn't a courtroom, this is an discussion board. The courts (rightly) require a much higher standard of proof than we're willing to accept here.

No point having loads of Nationlist indians if the Chiefs are all Unionists, who were formely in collusion with the Loyalists is there??

So where's your proof for these allegations? How many high-ranking RUC officers have been convicted of collusion with loyalists?

If Ferris is innocent until proven guilty in court, shouldn't high-ranking RUC officers get the benefit of the doubt too? You can't have it both ways!

Villain

Originally posted by Meh
This isn't a courtroom, this is an discussion board. The courts (rightly) require a much higher standard of proof than we're willing to accept here.

Oh right but you haven't offered any proof!!

Originally posted by Meh

So where's your proof for these allegations? How many high-ranking RUC officers have been convicted of collusion with loyalists?

If Ferris is innocent until proven guilty in court, shouldn't high-ranking RUC officers get the benefit of the doubt too? You can't have it both ways!

Well if I get a chance later I'l try and dig up some reports that state quite clearly that there was collusion.

The only one that comes to mind at the moment is the UN report:http://www.rte.ie/news/1999/0412/un.html

Oh and Ferris wasn't found guilty so therefore he's innocent!

bonkey

Originally posted by Meh
This isn't a courtroom, this is an discussion board.

True, but I still think that our standard of proof should be somewhere above "everyone knows he's guilty".....

This does, of course, cut both ways.....I would expect the same standard to be applied against anyone else as well.

I would also expect anyone making an allegation to be able to defend it with the same level of proof that they demand from others, regardless of where they set their standards relative to mine.

The one thing I don't expect is for anyone to have to offer proof that some allegation is not true (e.g. the "where's your proof the IRA weren't responsible for act X" / "where's your proof the Unionists weren't in collusion with X" type of misdirection.

This has been an interesting to and fro so far, but lets not lose the run of ourselves folks.....

jc

David-[RLD]-

Originally posted by ReefBreak
I would absolutely love to know why you would give your vote (if you had a vote) to Sinn Féin. Go on, give us 5 reasons why. Even if one was to ignore the fact that they have links with an Irish version of Al Qaeda, I still can't think of one single reason to give them my vote.

I would and will vote for Sinn Féin.

1 - They are striving for a 32-county soverign, independent, united Ireland free of oppressive, imperialist British rule.

TBH that reason alone is good enough for me, but since you asked for more...

2 - They are pro-Agreement.

3 - Gerry Adams is, in many people's opinion, an extremely gifted public speaker and leader, and he is well-capable of driving Sinn Féin and Ireland forward much better than that Bertie muppet is.

4 - Sinn Féin are Socialist as well as Republican.

5 - I 100% agree with their constant promotion of an Ghaeilge.

want another one? ok...

6 - Sinn Féin are the only real major Republican party in the country. All of this crap about Fianna Fáil being "The Republican Party" or Fine Gael being the "United Ireland Party" is complete bull. FF and FG couldn't give a sh*te about a United Ireland. I know because my grandad is a member of FF and he knows what a lot of the other members think of a United Ireland. They don't care. He's probably one of the few who do.

Would anyone agree with me on those 6 reasons? If you want more I'm always happy to oblige.

And no, I do not believe Gerry Adams was/is a member of the IRA, but even if he was, who cares?

Cork

Originally posted by David-[RLD]-
I would and will vote for Sinn Féin.

1 - They are striving for a 32-county soverign, independent, united Ireland free of oppressive, imperialist British rule.

30 years of violence prooved that.

SF accepted the consent principle. Their ballot box and armilite stratergy failed.

They take their salarys from Westminister & the Dail.

They are pretty partitionist really.

Are they not Marxist rather than socialist?

David-[RLD]-

you seem to be to be a bit of a DUP man yourself. Is Irish a Leprechaun language to you too?

who says Sinn Féin are Marxist? says in their policies that they're Socialist

Meh

Originally posted by irish1
Oh and Ferris wasn't found guilty so therefore he's innocent!

"Those RUC officers weren't found guilty, therefore they're innocent!"

Doublethink at its finest.

Hmmmm
My own view of Sinn Féin is that I'd have a certain understanding of them, and where they are coming from and where they have came from.

Theres not enough in any manifesto that I have read that I would agree with for me to consider voting for them.
By that I mean, I can find other parties with which I would be more comfortable policy wise.

I'd have a certain appreciation for their capabilities in recent years.
And as I've posted before I can certainly see why, they would be popular amongst nationalists in the North, given the situation there.


I have too many choices on the ballot paper here in the 26 counties, and even if SF had more policies that I'd agree with, they wouldn't have a hope of my vote unless, they in my view had no connections with private armies or racketeering.
Of course I may have no evidence of their connections, barring the circumstantial, but I've not been convinced otherwise either here or elsewhere.

Villain

Originally posted by Meh
"Those RUC officers weren't found guilty, therefore they're innocent!"

Doublethink at its finest.

Can't find any any definite proof, so I'l retract my statement.

I think the UN report offers some light into the area do.

I have edited that post. Myabe others would be big enough to retract statements they have made that can't be proved!

Cork

Oh - have they dropped their nationisation policies then?

Their Irish Language policy is also weak - talk about cupla focal.

I am a Republican (not the SF tribal defination).

Unionists in NI are every bit as Irish as Adams.

The Good Friday Agreement was exactly what John Hume preached for 30 years.

David-[RLD]-

Communism is the ideology that the State runs everything and all workers get paid the same wage as to stamp out poverty.

Socialism is where the working class control the country. All people have equal rights and nobody is above anyone else. People of "higher class" have no control over lower classes. The Proclamation of Independence is a Socialist document.

David-[RLD]-

their Irish language policy might not be the best but at least they're actually trying, unlike Fianna Fáil who can't even get place names right (check Gaeilge forum for more info )

Villain

Originally posted by Cork

Unionists in NI are every bit as Irish as Adams.

.

Go up there and tell them that, I dare ya!!;)

David-[RLD]-

But he's right, they are. All people born in Ireland are Irish.

Cork

The SDLP are socialists.

IF SF/IRA win a seat in the EU election - Has SF/IRA even applied for membership of the socialists?

Villain

Originally posted by David-[RLD]-
But he's right, they are. All people born in Ireland are Irish.

I never said he was wrong, I was just daring him to go up and tell the Unionists that.

Oh and cork if you do go make sure you stop in on Ian and Mrs Paisley:D

Sparks

Would someone care to tell me why being "republican" is a good thing? Or why supporting the Irish language is more important than, say, the healthcare system?

Go up and there and tell them that, I dare ya!!

And the fact that that might be a dangerous thing to do is sufficent reason for me never to vote for them....

Communism is the ideology that the State runs everything and all workers get paid the same wage as to stamp out poverty.

Not exactly. A better summation would be that Communism thinks of life as a single project that the entire community is working on together, as opposed to Capitalism which assumes everyone is out for themselves.

Cork

Originally posted by irish1
Go up there and tell them that, I dare ya!!;)

I do go "Up there". I talk to both unionists and nationalists.

It has improved since the days of bombing rail lines and hotels.

How many times did the IRA bomb rail track in the name of Ireland?

Thank God for John Hume.

David-[RLD]-

irish1, ok.

Tee hee hee I'd do that for the fun of it, let alone a dare or a bet.

I'd also spray paint his windows green white and orange just to see the look on his face.

Cork

Originally posted by irish1
I never said he was wrong, I was just daring him to go up and tell the Unionists that.

Oh and cork if you do go make sure you stop in on Ian and Mrs Paisley:D

It is up to SF/IRA to come to consensus with the DUP.

No doubt - SF MLAs are still claiming their salarys.

Villain

Originally posted by Cork

No doubt - SF MLAs are still claiming their salarys.

Wouldn't you??

Cork

This is not a case of Martin Ferris forgeting about his medical card.

The assembly were elected last November and still have not sat.

If I was a tax payer a would be unhappy.

SF/IRA & DUP have to get talking to get it up & running.

Clinton & Mitchell are gone.

Its down to them.