religion

yankinlk

What to do about religion for the 6 year old?
Unfortunately my son attends a school that is Catholic. I recently discovered he is "forced" to pray twice a day. I'm sure at some point in his schooling he will be attending a religious class. He is also by nature of this society (irish) going to be peer-pressurized into making his communion and eventually his confirmation.

How should I deal with this? I have told my irish catholic wife (who only attends church anymore for weddings and funerals) that I ain't too happy. There is no question of moving him to another school, not practical/possible.

My intention is to spend the next 6 years being open and honest about what I think of organized religion - why I think he should consider his options (hell someday he may prefer to be a buddist!) - before "confirming".

My wife and Inlaws and for the most part my parents feel I am doing the wrong thing by pushing him away from the church - I feel i am giving him another option.

Is he too young to deal with these issues? OR have I left it too late to prevent the brainwashing peer-pressure?

raphaelS

I have almost the same "problem" with my daughter, she's 8 and has been in a catholic school for 2 years now. We didn't choose that school, it was the 1st one that accept her, the 2 closed by schools wouldn't because we were not in the parish... meaning not catholic.

Anyway, she's not baptized but she's in the "baby jesus" stuff she's learning at school, she knows that we (parents) don't believe in god(s) and she's ok about it

The fact that her school is very open helps a lot to be cool about it, there's a Muslim with a scarf in her class.

I wouldn't worry that much, I think she (and your son) needs to know what religion is about. I know that in secondary (not sure in primary) in religion you also learn facts about other religion.

I learned that as well in school (not in Ireland) and after school and I feel I know enough about religion and history to don't have any, I will explain that to her if she ask me one day, I have that answer ready! I don't have the one about the baby!

When she'll be older she'll be able to choose to keep a faith (this one or another one) or not... to be honest I'll be happy if she become atheist like daddy!

It is better that way than saying to a child you have to be catholic because your born catholic. (you can swap catholic by any religion and it works).

Raphael

foxinsocks

Well...

If there is absolutely positively no choice with schools, then there's not a whole lot you can do... While personally I abhor the way Catholics recruit children so young, as long as you at home are giving your child options, and telling him about other religions, then it shouldnt do too much harm I think... Just make sure you dont teach your child to be disrespectful of the Catholic Church, as this may lead to conflicts in the classroom, and no child needs that.

From a personal point of view, growing up in Catholic Ireland as a non catholic it was tough, even though I attended non secular schools. I was sooooo jealous of my friends with the beautiful white dresses (and of course the cash!). But long term, not being catholic didnt do me any harm either.

Basically, In my opinion, don't worry too much either way. 6 years old (again, in my opinion) is not old enough to understand the concepts behind faith, or sin, or an afterlife, or any of that spiritual stuff... He is the centre of his own universe, with no real sense of mortality.

On a slightly seperate note, your parents, and your inlaws should *really* be keeping their noses out, this is up to you, and the child's mother, and nothing to do with them... Try to handle that one sensitively though :ninja:

Fox_in_Socks
PS... my heart sank when i saw a thread entitled 'Religion' on the board... so try to keep this civil guys :eek:

yankinlk

I agree fox. I debated for a while to post or not. I did a search to see if it had come up recently before posting. I wanted to post into humanities but figured it was already covered partially by the french "scarf issue".

The thing that got me going in relation to my own parents was that they said I was brainwashing my child by presenting him a negative view of the catholic church at such a young age. I felt that if the school is going to force him to pray twice a day for a whole year that I am at least entitled to talk to him once a year about an alternative view.

Then of course my father pulled his old standby - asking my son if he wanted to get communion, "you get loads of money". Of course he will jump at that won't he?! - Then i told my son to go ahead and take the dough - then just don't bother getting confirmed (that will show them I thought) same as myself. But of course, smart ole grandpa told him you get money for that as well ( i didn't know that).

Now my inlaws are a different story. They are irish and raised in this country - they are also raising children (still) in this country under their own faith (catholic). They think I am "WRONG". But I dont care what they want/believe. I just want to have a chance to express my own views. I would never come down on anyone for their beliefs - just don't try and force me to accept yours.

RainyDay

This is an interesting issue. My natural instinct would be not to baptise our new daughter, and let her make her own individual choices when she gets older. Communion & Confirmation years may well be challenge, but I'm more concerned about choice of school. All the schools in the locality are religious owned. At a minimum, this means that our child would be at the bottom of the priority list when they are selecting pupils. I'm just wondering if this will effectively exclude our girl from the local schools. There was certainly a clear assumption in my initial calls to the schools that she would be baptised.

yankinlk

exactly my point. religion holding you ransom.

the biggest choice you will ever make for your child might be the school you send them to. I would advise you to baptise and then fight the communion and confirmation battles later. you can fight and lose, or just lose.

sure, they nearly wouldn't marry me in this country because i wasn't confirmed. i had to promise to do it the next year. imagine me at 27 going around to the neighbors collecting confirmation money!

Beruthiel

breath easy fellow parents
I did not want to send my child to any school which taught religion, lol - virtually impossible in Ireland.
I did not want her growing up as I did with it shoved down your throat at every opportunity and living with that ‘guilty’ feeling for years.
Anyway, I had no choice but to send her to such a school, for her first 4 years she had never heard of god anyway and was never brought to church, when religion came into it (first communion and confirmation) I asked her what she wanted to do, I think all kids want to do is fit in (and no matter what your feeling are on the subject, you must do whatever your kid is comfortable with) anyways, she did both but don’t for one moment think it had even a jot of influence on her, other than dressing up for the day. She never goes to church, she is under no illusions what I think of organised religions and is spending her teenage years dissing all religions, only yesterday was she reading a book which had a story about saint Brid, who apparently was not really a saint at all but a goddess of health in Ireland, she was changed to a saint by the catholic church just to get the irish on side, tis laughable. Anyway, you get my point, if you give your views, and watch the life of brian a few times, that’s enough.

sceptre

Originally posted by yankinlk
My wife and Inlaws and for the most part my parents feel I am doing the wrong thing by pushing him away from the church - I feel i am giving him another option.

Can I assume that they've thrown up the expected chestnut: "sure and wouldn't you like him to have the option to be/stay Catholic"?

(I'm expecting this one to be thrown at me if I have little munchkins some day - I've got the usual sane response ready)

yankinlk

Last night someone was talking about how thick David Becham is and quoting a lot of funny things he has said/done. They mentioned one that didn't make me laugh at all: David Beckam said, "We want to have Brooklyn christened but we are not sure into which religion!"

I'm all for that really, get the kid christened but don't force him to choose a religion.

Yavvy

We are in a tough position too, My little girl who is 6mths this thursday hasnt been christened. I was raised catholic but have since lost any faith in organised religion, but I still believe in something, so in effect it game me .."something", so maybe it still has something to offer. The RC's as with just about all major religions seem to offer some good moral guidance.

We think we will have her christened, but I intend to be openly honest about my views and we will try and show her as many perspectives as possible.

What worries me about catholics is the fear of sin and hell and god that they try to install...thats where I see a real battle ahead...

McGinty

I have some friends who are agnostic and send their son to a Catholic school, they requested that their son don't particpate in the religious classes and he didn't make any communion and the school was fine about it, nor has their son been teased.

In my own instances, like you I want to inform my son on the many different religions, and move away from the fire, hell and brimstone stuff, I hate all that guff and think its unhealthy and scary for children. Besides God isn't about fear, He is about love (that is of course if you believe in a God - I do, but don't buy into the whole catholism) however I did have my son christened because I wanted him to have a christian faith, but he can decide later in life what he would like.

I would say go as you are, and politely tell family members (I have a similar problem) that is how you wish to raise your child and to not interfere.

Seraphina

i went to a catholic school, and while it wasn't really forced down our throat, religion became a big focus around the time of communion/confirmation.

most people in my class were just in it for the money, i did both, but neither meant anything to me.
however you can easliy request your child doesn't partake in religious activities, there were two muslims in our school who just read while we were doing religion related stuff.

best bet is to just explain the whole dealy, talk about other religions, and tell them they dont have to believe anything they're told if they dont want to.

Georgiana

I am a non practicing Irish Catholic and my husband is athiest (not Irish). We want our son aged 18 months now to have a knowledge of what religon in general is but not to practice in any direction until he is of an age to choose to do what he wants. It is very regrettable that the school system requires patronage, which in practice means patronage by the churches and in particular the Catholic church. Multi denominational education is very limited and in some cases expensive. We have chosen a private multi denominational school which I resent having to pay for as I feel the State should provide easy access to such education. I am not comfortable with my son attending a school under the control of the Catholic church and being the outsider who "does other things" while others pray or prepare for communion etc. I feel it is important not to make a child feel different amongst thier peers, so if one is in the system it might be better to participate than be singled out. This is a hard call to make if your child is in the system already. The psychological needs of the child are of course paramount. The whole issue will need to be addressed as Ireland becomes more multi cultural.

I agree with those who advise the original poster to exercise parental influence to supplement /augment the influences at school. One suggestion in relation to the prayers at school might be to have your own "meditations" or "reflections" at home in the morning and evening. These could be along any lines you feel are appropriate-
"We will be kind to everyone we meet today" "We will notice the beauty around us today" "We know today that all is well" "We remember granny who is no longer with us" "We remember and appreciate what happened today" etc

ArthurDent

As an alternative to denominational schools there are over 30 Educate Together Schools in Ireland now - if you want to check them out go to www.educatetogether.ie
My eldest goes and he seems to be getting a taste of different culture, traditions and religions but none is taught as amatter o faith.

So far has worked for us (lapsed catholic and an agnostic)

Georgiana

Thanks for the info. I know about Educate Together and I agree it is a good development- but so far as I can see the movement is functioning against the odds in terms of State support and Dept Education policy on school patronage. I congratulate all those involved and hope to become involved myself. Currently 30 schools is a step in the right direction but hopelessly inadequate in terms of providing this service to all parents who would want it in all geographical areas. It seems to be a case of "If you want it, organise it yourselves if there are enough of you". My son is on a waiting list for Junior Infants in 2007, at the only school which is in any way reachable-but the school tells me he is unlikey to get a place as he is too far down the list for that year. I should have had his name down when I was pregnant with him! As I result we felt we had no alternative left other than to put his name on the waiting list for a private school which adopts a multidenominational approach-but this will cost heavily.

Pataman

Originally posted by yankinlk
What to do about religion for the 6 year old?
Unfortunately my son attends a school that is Catholic. I recently discovered he is "forced" to pray twice a day. I'm sure at some point in his schooling he will be attending a religious class. He is also by nature of this society (irish) going to be peer-pressurized into making his communion and eventually his confirmation.

If you send you child to a catholic school, what do you expect? Send your child to a jewish school and the same will happen. I doubt your 6 year old goes himself, change school.

I am sick of people complaining about the schools and the fact they have no choice. YES YOU DO
Pick a nondenominational school and stop blaming the school

If you dont like the rules dont join the club.

Pataman

Originally posted by yankinlk


sure, they nearly wouldn't marry me in this country because i wasn't confirmed. i had to promise to do it the next year. imagine me at 27 going around to the neighbors collecting confirmation money! [/B]

Why should they marry you. Both you and your wife are non practising. Why didnt you get married in a registry office. Why did you have to get married in a catholic church?

keu

my nine year old made her communion last year and I have to say I wasn't prepared for the consequences.
Since she made her communion we have been to church twice, partially because she felt like she was missing out on the recieving her "bread"
The last time we were there, I attempted to leave before the bread giving and she started crying in the church. I felt like the evil mother from hell.

I don't recall ever really wanting or liking attending church when I was her age,(she loves it, probably because it is still a novelty for her) and I wasn't concerned with sending her to a catholic school originally (not much choice here) as I thought that as with most of us, the religion thing wears off when you get to particular age (puberty)

I still see things this way, hoping that a few years down the line she will use her own judgment with regard to her religious/spiritual standing and go down the road most of us take and question these issues herself.

btw..I didn't go to a catholic secondary school and religious classes were replaced by pastoral care or social studies, so I wouldnt worry too much about the options available for your kid right now, in a few years time secondary education will open up different avenues (and offer questions) with regard to religious perspectives

RainyDay

Originally posted by Pataman
[I am sick of people complaining about the schools and the fact they have no choice. YES YOU DO
Pick a nondenominational school and stop blaming the school

If you dont like the rules dont join the club.

Now we're getting to the crux of the problem - lack of choice. In rural areas, there is one local school - take it or leave it. In my urban area, all of the 4 national schools in the area are church owned/run, so really don't have any other option. The nearest non-denominational school is just too far away.

So despite the fact that the state picks up the bill for the running costs of the 4 national schools, I don't have the option of choosing a non-denominational school for my daughter.

keu

this thread has had me reminiscing. I worked in a cbs boys primary school some time ago as a classroom assistant for a 7 year old who was diagnosed as A.D.H.D.
He was raised catholic until he was about four and after a second marriage his family became jehovahs witness.
I was immediately informed when I took the position of his religious standing, and it genuinely seemed to be a huge issue for the teacher and the rest of the staff. I was warned not to encourage any conversation regarding religion with him.
His mother was treated with utter contempt and her sons diagnosis was blamed on the beliefs that she had instilled in him. If there was a need to call the mother in to speak about any issues, the teacher would be as nice as pie to her face but as soon as the boys mother would walk out of the classroom, the teachers eyes would roll to heaven and with a shrug of the shoulders, discredited any sense of repect towards the boys mother. (I know your thinking the teacher must have been some prehistoric christian brother, but she was a youngish english lady who had been working in Ireland for ten years)

Everyday began and ended with prayers. If any of you are familiar with adhd, you will understand how impossible it is to contend with a child who cannot hold any sense of focus or discipline for more then five minutes a go, and prayer time was always a bit of a laugh.
He point blank refused to pray, or even hold any attention while the rest of the class did their thing, the teacher reprimanded him everytime, forcing him to participate, or even just to stand with his hands held in prayer and to listen to the rest of the boys.
This never worked, the kid was very vocal as to his what he was going to do too. (ahh I loved that child)
One day the teacher decided to help him interact with prayers by asking him to say one that he might say, she explained to the rest of the boys that he had a different religion but that they still prayed and that today he was going to share "how he does it" with us.

He was thrilled with the suggestion, so he stood boldly in front of the rest of the student, clasped his hands together, closed his eyes and said...
"dear father in heaven.....bless all of my friends and family and take us all to paradise to live with you, because we are all good people...except Jimmy(the boy who sits in front of him)...who is a bad boy...and who is always shouting and taking my things and never leaves me alone.....amen"

needless to say, he was never asked to particpate during prayers again..(I was allowed leave early with him)...

ArthurDent

Originally posted by Pataman

Originally posted by yankinlk
What to do about religion for the 6 year old?
Unfortunately my son attends a school that is Catholic. I recently discovered he is "forced" to pray twice a day. I'm sure at some point in his schooling he will be attending a religious class. He is also by nature of this society (irish) going to be peer-pressurized into making his communion and eventually his confirmation.

If you send you child to a catholic school, what do you expect? Send your child to a jewish school and the same will happen. I doubt your 6 year old goes himself, change school.

I am sick of people complaining about the schools and the fact they have no choice. YES YOU DO
Pick a nondenominational school and stop blaming the school


And where will you find a non-denominational school - 99% of primary schools in ireland are denominational - some choice eh?

KdjaCL

I have same issue and i leaving it as i was left, let them make communion and confirmation and when old enough decide for themselves whether to be religous or not.
I never forcing the to church so cant see them ever going by choice,i only went cos i was forced to so parents could have a queite house on a sunday (really thats why we all were forced to go).

So let them learn about that lad god and his mates and let the kids choose for themselves, dont like it being forced on them tho.

kdjac

Georgiana

Pataman

The difficulty is that the Department of Education requires all schools to have a patron and this in practice translates into the vast majority of schools being patronised by the Catholic church. People are faced with a lack of choice. Have you looked at the statistics regarding school patronage or the Department of Education website listing of schools? Many many people cannot realistically hope to send their child to a multidenominational school simply because there is no such school in their area. In addition multidenominational schools can have long waiting lists and many children therefore cannot get places unless their mothers are quick enought to book them in the minute they know they are pregnant as some people obviously do.

MrPudding

My daughter goes to the french school here in Dublin. As I am sure you are aware french schools don't do religion. Problem solved:)

Georgiana

Can you tell me where the French school is? And is it fee paying?

joePC

Is he too young to deal with these issues? OR have I left it too late to prevent the brainwashing peer-pressure?

You said he is attending a Catholic school, if you wanted your child to be bought up with no religion, this was the first mistake........I think its best to leave him there.

I agree with your views on organised religion, personally I hate the whole idea..............

Thanks JoePC

MrPudding

Originally posted by Georgiana
Can you tell me where the French school is? And is it fee paying?

It is near Foxrock Church, just off Kill Lane. And it is fee paying. They are around 2 to 2.5K. It is a very good school though.

MrP

Georgiana

Thanks for the info on the French school. Unfortunately its not accessible for us.

Chowmein

The way Educate Together schools get set up is by people in the area forming a commity. If you want information call 01-4292500 or email jane.mccarthy@educatetogether.ie.

One of my family members works for them, hence the pluging

Orion

Originally posted by Georgiana
My son is on a waiting list for Junior Infants in 2007, at the only school which is in any way reachable-but the school tells me he is unlikey to get a place as he is too far down the list for that year. I should have had his name down when I was pregnant with him! As I result we felt we had no alternative left other than to put his name on the waiting list for a private school which adopts a multidenominational approach-but this will cost heavily.

I put my twin daughters down for the ET school in Celbridge when they were 1 week old (they're 9 months now). It was the only way to make sure that they got a non-directive education. We are not baptising them (despite pressure from my parents) and if they choose to join an organised religion when they're older that's up to them.

Personally my (non-)beliefs are athiest. That said I have no problem with anyone else's religion - I believe that it's a personal thing. I do object to the Catholic near-monopoly in primary education in Ireland. Even if you send your kid to a Catholic school you have the option to keep them out of religion classes. That's not a real option as it just leads to exclusion. What do they do when they're not in class? The only real option at the moment (Educate Together is just not big enough yet) is to force the primary school system to be non-directive. Any religious education should be held outside of normal school hours. In the last census Protestant and No Religion were the biggest increases while Catholics dropped. Yet in many rural areas the only option is a Catholic school with all the catholic propaganda that that entails.

ArthurDent

Originally posted by Macros42
The only real option at the moment (Educate Together is just not big enough yet) is to force the primary school system to be non-directive. Any religious education should be held outside of normal school hours. In the last census Protestant and No Religion were the biggest increases while Catholics dropped. Yet in many rural areas the only option is a Catholic school with all the catholic propaganda that that entails.

Macros42, while I agree with you in trying to obtain a non-directive education (and was involved in setting up an ET school and am now of the Board of Managment of that school), I can't realistically see how the existing denominational schools are going to be forced to change their ethos - most denominational schools are on parish property and funded to a greater or lesser extent by their churches and I can't see the Govt coughing up to buy the land from the parishes etc. And in fairness to the denominations - they did pick up the slack in providing an education for the masses - something that the Govt's through the years were quite happy to pass on to them.