religion

josh40

Credit kids with some intelligence and don't be so paranoid about religious brainwashing in Catholic schools. Not every kid who attends Catholic school chooses to be Catholic when they are old enough to make an informed choice, many do but at the end of the day it is a choice.

In order to reject a religion , you first have to know something about it. I also think it's important for kids to have a pretty good knowledge of as many religions as possible but these obviously have to be introduced slowly . There is only so much information a six year old can process.Kids obviously learn a lot about their parents beliefs from just being around them. If you disagree with what is being taught at school, explain to your child that is what many people believe but you don't share that view.

There is nothing wrong with saying a few prayers every day! Both my kids go to a school where the only religion taught ( including daily prayers)is Greek Orthodox. My husband is Armenian Orthodox and I'm Catholic. I remember when my kids were smaller someone once asked my son to Bless himself, he replied "How like mommy does, like daddy does or like we do at school?"
Life is much easier and more interesting if you go with the flow. I don't think that your kids will be forced into being Catholic just because they attend a Catholic school.If you are otherwisw happy with their level of education why make waves?

Few kids really understand the significance of Confirmation , it's not iirreversible!Religion in smaller countries is very much connected to history and tradition. Going to "Greek" school makes my kids feel they belong in a country where both their parents are foreigners,so what if their religion teacher takes pot shots at Catholics every now and again. In fact, we have a good laugh at it together.

Your kida are as much influenced by you as by what they learn at school. Teach they to accept different beliefs and to be tolerant and they will be fine.

Kernel32

josh40,
this is a good point..

I also think it's important for kids to have a pretty good knowledge of as many religions as possible but these obviously have to be introduced slowly

but it flys in the face on how religion is taught in irish primary education. The Catholic religion is presented to the child as being fact. Its not presented as a view or opinion or a choice but as something you learn about as being factual and something you must accept. That is where my major gripe would be with how religion is treated in schools.

josh40

Religion has to be presented as "Fact", everyone who believes in a Religion believes that this is the one true religion, otherwise it doesn't really make a lot of sense.
A sensitive , tolerant parent will guide their child around to the idea that many people believe in many true religions and what they believe in is the "true " religion or set of beliefs for them.

Logically speaking , how could you teach a six or seven year old about religion without saying it was fact?When my daughter was that age or a few years older she often asked me if such and such a person believed in our God or another one, despite the fact that at school she was being taught there was only one real religion.We talked a lot at home about different Gods, which was easier because we have many friends of different beliefs. She never really seemed to have any problem accepting both messages!

ArthurDent

Originally posted by josh40


There is nothing wrong with saying a few prayers every day!

Sorry but I don't agree - if you don't believe in a particular faith what type of message are you sending to your kids by saying to them - even though you don't believe in this just go with the flow .....

Article 42.4 of the Constitution of Ireland:

"The state shall provide for free primary education and shall endeavour to supplement and give reasonable aid to private and corporate educational initiative, and, when the public good requires it, provide other educational facilities or institutions with due regard, however, for the rights of parents, especially in the matter of religious and moral formation"

No parent should be forced to send a child to a school whose ethos is not that of those parents

Also there is a huge difference between teaching about different religions/faiths/cultures etc - which I totally agree with and teaching doctrine i.e. that the teaching of any of those faiths is "the truth".

Kernel32

Originally posted by josh40

Logically speaking , how could you teach a six or seven year old about religion without saying it was fact?

You make the perfect argument why religion should not be taught in public education. A public school has no place presenting any religious teaching as fact because it isn't fact. If a person chooses to teach their own child this thats fine or send them to a private school where this is done then this is fine also, but pay for it with tax payers money? I don't think so.

josh40

How do you feel about how history is taught? In any national curriculum history is taught as fact, but in reality all that is being taught is usually , unfortunately a very narrow interpretation of what happened in the past.

Why do you object so much to the teaching of religion? Did you go through the public system in Ireland, did it brain wash you so much? I went to a Catholic boarding school, you don't get more rigid than that ! Did it brainwash me? no I don't think so! A good education will teach you to think for yourself, at the end of the day, you come away questioning half of what you have been taught? That's no bad thing!

Kernel32

Originally posted by josh40
How do you feel about how history is taught? In any national curriculum history is taught as fact, but in reality all that is being taught is usually , unfortunately a very narrow interpretation of what happened in the past.

Thats a good point and if you feel that way I would take the matter up with the school your child is attending, but it has nothing to do with this topic.

Originally posted by josh40

Why do you object so much to the teaching of religion? Did you go through the public system in Ireland, did it brain wash you so much?

I have no objection to the teaching of religion. I do object to public money being used to promote one religion over all others. If public money was used to promote atheistism I would object just as much to that. Why should a hindu taxpayer pay for a catholic childs preparation for confirmation?

Originally posted by josh40

I went to a Catholic boarding school, you don't get more rigid than that ! Did it brainwash me? no I don't think so!

If you went to a boarding school then most likely tuition was paid and a choice was made by your parents or guardians to send you there and not to a public school which was a perfectly valid choice.

Xterminator

While I started in a catholic national school, i was transferred too a Church of Ireland school, for Primary and Secondary. (Iam neither Catholic or COI)

In my COI school there was a mix of Catholics , Protestant, Jewish and others.

This was a good thing because ity meant as a child i had a very 'multi denominal' view of things. I did participate in prayer etc, even though I wasnt COI. A couple of friends were excluded from religious activities, but I can tell you as a child i'd rather take part than be excluded.

So my reccomendation is see if you have a COI school, because as they know they are a minority religion, they are very tolerant, and usually have a multidenominal pupil base.

X

josh40

In most countries the taxpayer's money is used for the "good" of the majority. Most people in Ireland are Catholic, therefore it is logical that this group is better catered for as far as education is concerned.I'm not saying it's right but it is understandable.Democracy usually means accepting the will of the majority!

I'ts the same in most countries where there is one predominant religion.Here in Greece, if I wanted my kids to go to a non Christian Orthodox school I would have to pay a fortune for a private school.When I went to primary school in Ireland in the late sixties, we had kids who were not Catholic and they were excluded from prayers if they wished. It's interesting that most of them chose to take part in all religious activities, but not one ever converted to Catholocism.

How many of you posters who don't want your kids to go to Catholic schools actually went to one?Have things become so bad that other religions are not tolerated?

As far as history teaching is concerned, I think it's exactly the same thing. It is very dangerous to teach history as fact, yet that is usually what is done.

The great weakness of State systems , especially in smaller countries is that they exclude certain minority groups. If enough people feel that it is time to change the system , surely it is time to take action.

tapper

i was raised as a catholic and sent to catholic schools and although the church has made some terrible mistakes its not the church that i feel close to, it god. my faith has helped me through some tough times and i think it is a terrible shame for a child to be brought up with no beliefs and no faith of any kind.
no matter what god your praying to its important to have one!

ArthurDent

Originally posted by tapper
i was raised as a catholic and sent to catholic schools and although the church has made some terrible mistakes its not the church that i feel close to, it god. my faith has helped me through some tough times and i think it is a terrible shame for a child to be brought up with no beliefs and no faith of any kind.
no matter what god your praying to its important to have one!

Tapper - It's great that you have a faith that means so much to you, but for people who don't or who practise a different faith to the majority faiths the fact that 99% of primary schools in ireland are denominational means that they may not be afforded the right to an education that does not conflict with their ethos.

Ireland is becoming more multicultutal, multi-denominational and more secular and its just a shame that our education system does not reflect this.

RainyDay

Very interesting edition of Townlands on RTE this evening with fly-on-the-wall coverage of some Dublin kids making their first communions. Some very funny clips showing the little girls in the beauty salons getting their hair & nails done.

No offence intended to people of religion, but the kids rattling off the prayers & responses might as well have been singing Barney's I Love You song for all the meaning it had for them. There is no sense in herding 7 year olds through a religious ceremony like this. Wait for them to be able to make a sensible decision for themselves.

Originally posted by josh40
IMost people in Ireland are Catholic,

I disagree. Most people may well be baptised Catholic, and will return to the Catholic church for weddings/funerals/baptisms, but most people are not practicing Catholics in any real sense of the word. Just check out the age profile at any Sunday Mass - 80% of attendees are 50+, IMHO.

sunbeam

Interesting programme indeed, though I was a little surprised that such fashion conscious little girls are still going for those 1980s frilly lampshade dresses.

First communion is such a right of passage in this country that I can see some kind of additional secular version of it existing in decades to come as religious beliefs become more diverse. Perhaps a sort of graduation from lower primary school where kids could still dress up and get the money without the necessity to commit to a particular religious belief. Mind you I could see that turning into a mini-debs.

unkel

Wow, great thread with lots of opinions to think about

Originally posted by RainyDay
No offence intended to people of religion, but the kids rattling off the prayers & responses might as well have been singing Barney's I Love You song for all the meaning it had for them. There is no sense in herding 7 year olds through a religious ceremony like this. Wait for them to be able to make a sensible decision for themselves.

Could not agree more. If there is one thing in life that I despise, it has to be hypocrisy. Just look around you and observe all those people that aren't really religious at all getting married in a Cathlolic church and baptising their babies and then sending them to Catholic schools followed by Holy Communion

Sure, most of them do it under pressure from their family (parents) but is that the right way to bring up your child, giving in to blackmail?

Etain

My wife and Inlaws and for the most part my parents feel I am doing the wrong thing by pushing him away from the church - I feel i am giving him another option.

Generally, children who are brought up without faith, grow up to be adults without faith. While this seems to be what you are aiming for, be careful, there's another phenomenon that occurs with children: the more their parents push them away from something, the more likely they are to embrace it . Your son may grow up to be deeply religious, then what? Also, how are you going to react to his Catholic friends? Do you encourage his contempt for people of faith?
My son had a friend who came over to our house several times. One day, his mother noticed the crucifix on the wall and the boy couldn't have anything more to do with my son. The boys were 7 years old! My son has many other friends, but it was still sad trying to explain it to him. The other boy cried and cried when he told my son that they couldn't be friends anymore because we are Catholics. Yes, we are Catholics, but we had NEVER discussed religion when he was over. Her decision was based on the sight of the crucifix. That was some serious insecurity/ hatred.

df001i6876

Originally posted by Macros42
I put my twin daughters down for the ET school in Celbridge when they were 1 week old (they're 9 months now). It was the only way to make sure that they got a non-directive education. We are not baptising them (despite pressure from my parents) and if they choose to join an organised religion when they're older that's up to them.

Personally my (non-)beliefs are athiest. That said I have no problem with anyone else's religion - I believe that it's a personal thing. I do object to the Catholic near-monopoly in primary education in Ireland. Even if you send your kid to a Catholic school you have the option to keep them out of religion classes. That's not a real option as it just leads to exclusion. What do they do when they're not in class? The only real option at the moment (Educate Together is just not big enough yet) is to force the primary school system to be non-directive. Any religious education should be held outside of normal school hours. In the last census Protestant and No Religion were the biggest increases while Catholics dropped. Yet in many rural areas the only option is a Catholic school with all the catholic propaganda that that entails.

I agree the learning off the religion should be left till they grow up.
I am a none believer and allway have. Your heaven and hell is on the earth .Theres
enough trouble in the world to day. through it. who need it. good for you.