ATM Scams

gurramok

I have heard recently that the ongoing pilfering of peoples accounts via ATM by criminal types is still ongoing.
Question is, what do you look out for when at an ATM to be sure you will not be a victim, is it just a case of making sure that your card does not get stuck/swallowed up by the machine hence suspicion ?

There has hardly been any advice by the banks relating to the matter.

dahamsta

Originally posted by gurramok
Question is, what do you look out for when at an ATM to be sure you will not be a victim, is it just a case of making sure that your card does not get stuck/swallowed up by the machine hence suspicion ?

I'd be inclined to give a gook yank on the fascia these days just to be sure, but I can hardly see the banks recommending that.

adam

Of course that should say "good yank". "I hear you're a racist now Father. How'd you get into that type of thing?"

RuggieBear

My house was broken into the other month and my wallet was stolen. Some how the theiving b0ll0x was able to take money out of two of my accounts at an ATM. Bank said they must have had the Pin number. Just don't know how someone would know it unless they saw me put the code in and knew where i lived.....


Is there anyway to crack ATM cards or get money out without knowing the PIN number.

(Apologies if this is in the wrong board)

p

dahamsta

Originally posted by pekelly
Is there anyway to crack ATM cards or get money out without knowing the PIN number.

Can't say with certainty, but I'm doubtful. These things usually have a simpler explanation: Are you sure the PIN wasn't written down somewhere as a reminder? Or stored in your phone? Are you sure it wasn't someone you know? The husband/wife/partner perhaps?

adam

RuggieBear

Defo wasn't written down Adam and i never told anyone.... so can only presume someone saw me type it in and took note and struck when it suited them.

Cost me about €1200 all together

dahamsta

Bastards. I hate to get creepy, but is it possible someone (a shoulder surfer that is) followed you home?

adam

RuggieBear

Don't think so. the last time i used an atm machine was that evening on baggot st. then i went to a 21st party near there and then got a bus home to Bray at midnight. Later that night got broken into....

p

gurramok

Originally posted by dahamsta
I'd be inclined to give a gook yank on the fascia these days just to be sure, but I can hardly see the banks recommending that.

Its not all about shoulder surfing

Seriously though, i have read in the paper before that some gangs are putting tiny strips of tin foil barely sightable where the atm card goes, some sort of sophisticated scam which will read your pin.

The banks have hardly given any advice about this.

dahamsta

There's lots of ways you can do it, you could use a fascia that "swallows" the card or simply use a card reader and microcam, but neither would really apply in pekelly's circumstances. (If they had a "card swallower", they'd already have the card; if they had a card reader, they wouldn't need it (they'd clone it instead)). This one just seems a little odd. I reckon pekelly was pissed and took the money out hisself. (Just kidding pekelly. )

adam

Specky

Ah..a subject upon which I can spout with some degree of expertise!

There are numerous very sophisticated ATM fraud setups reported with fake facias incorporating card readers and cameras, some of which record card data and are then removed later by the scammers and some of which have short range radio transmitters so all transactions can be recorded remotely (not from very far away, usually sitting in a car around the corner).

However this type of ATM scam is quite rare.

The vast majority of ATM fraud mechanisms still require an element of shoulder surfing, either direct (ie someone looking over your shoulder as you enter your pin/sitting across the street with a pair of binoculars) or remote with a video camera installed somewhere overlooking the ATM.

The PIN is the hardest thing to get. The card (or the data on the card) is relatively easy to obtain.

There are no figures for Ireland (because the banks don't care enough about the relatively small amount of money they are losing on this front in relation to the profits they are making) but if the levels of ATM fraud here reflect those in the US and UK there is a lot of ATM fraud happening.

Perhaps the fact that thieves here are still resorting to tying Landrovers to ATMs and driving off with them is a reflection on the level of sophistication of the average Irish thief. It is certainly a reflection on the way banks are still not using the available technology for ATMs that is employed elsewhere to reduce theses sorts of "un-subtle" types of crime. Probably as this technology does become adopted the sophistication of the thieve's will develop to keep pace.

Technology is also available to be able to verify that the correct person was using your card at each transaction but the banks here are very slow to adopt this too.

What to look out for at the ATM? Well...the obvious, big bloke in a leather jacket hanging around and peering over your shoulder...Shield the keypad with your other hand wherever possible because you really don't know who's watching

If you see an extra card reader stuck to the ATM with a sign saying please swipe your card here....don't.

Use the ATMs inside the bank if they have them (and if the bank's open of course) as there is less scope for these to be tampered with and your movements along with others will be recorded on camera.

In general (and I know it's not always possible) try not to use ATMs late at night or in isolated locations. You are labelling yourself as a worthwhile target.

ednwireland

never mind that partners credit card got cloned in a large toyshop chain in the uk a few weeks ago (ccard co. has taken the money off the account ) that is really worrying i am normally careful but all these rougue transactions appeared 2 days after using card in said toy shop. hand held card scanners can be bought for €400 beware.

RuggieBear

The banks don't lose any money from this kinda of fraud because they just say the thief must have known your pin and tell you to **** off as its not their problem that you were stupid enough to write the pin in your wallet/ tell the ****ing thief the pin number....

Neither of which any sane person would do and which i most certainly did not....

Basically my bank (as did the Garda Detective) implied that i was a complete gob****e for falling victim to this type of crime..... and that is really really irritating!

p

Victor

Originally posted by pekelly
Is there anyway to crack ATM cards or get money out without knowing the PIN number.

Yes, apparently the PIN is derived from the account number using a very complex formula (part of the account number is similarly derived from the branch code and the first part of the account number but on a simple formula). Hence the advice to change your PIN number to somehting you remember.

Is there any way for your PIN to be comprimised? Did you use those numbers for anything else.

Did the bank have CCTV footage?

If you were drinking are you sure that the wallet wasn't stolen earlier and they then used your address from something in the wallet to burgle you?

RuggieBear

Hi Victor,

I changed the pin number as soon as i got it and it wasn't written down or used for anything else. But i had the same pin number for both of my atm cards (which thinking about it, wasn't the wisest)

I had my wallet getting home as i used a monthly ticket to catch the bus home. I left my wallet and phone and my top of the range Sony net minidiscman (NZ 10?) on the living room table. Went the bed and realised my wallet was missing when i went to find some money to bu the sunday papers in the morning.

The thief used two atm machines, both of which have CCTV, which the GARDA obtained and by all accounts show the thief taking money out of my acc. I ewas nevcer shown the tape and haven't heard back from the GARDA despite leaving a heap of messages...that was 6months ago.

Eventually, I Just cut my losses butit it really pissed me off by the whole shebang....thief, being broken into, my ATM cards being used, the bank and the GARDAI being ****ing useless but also my own naivity in seeing how the real world works.

p

Specky

Yes, skimmed credit cards are a much bigger problem and there are many more opportunities to do it.

It is still the obligation of the individual to prove that he did not initiate the eroneous ATM transaction in Ireland. In the UK it has been changed so that the bank now has to prove that the person did initiate the transaction.

There is very little ATM CCTV coverage in Ireland. Cameras are generally poorly positioned anyway and because there is no data integration with the ATM they don't prove or disprove anything. The footage is often poor due to bad cameras/bad installation/bad recording....

...one of the things my company does is provide digitally recorded CCTV with data integration capabilities that can record the transaction details from ATMs simultaneoulsy with video footage of the person using the ATM. The recorders can then be remotely accessed over secure networks so that the bank can interrogate them instantaneously when a customer makes a compaint and instantly confirm the identity of the person using the card, the transaction details and how much money went out of the front of the machine...very little take up here in Ireland cos the banks won't spend the money.

This sort of thing is done everywhere in the US.

RuggieBear

Originally posted by Specky

It is still the obligation of the individual to prove that he did not initiate the eroneous ATM transaction in Ireland. In the UK it has been changed so that the bank now has to prove that the person did initiate the transaction.

one of my atm cards was an english Natwest acc and they also told me to feck off when i told them about the money being taken out of my acc without my consent!!

Anyway...i'm alot more careful putting my pin number into atms (cover the keystrokes with my wallet or hand) and change the number every month

Specky

one of my atm cards was an english Natwest acc and they also told me to feck off when i told them about the money being taken out of my acc without my consent!!

Natwest is part of the Royal Bank of Scotland group (as is Ulster Bank), they are in the process of taking up the ATM data/video technology as a result of the change in legislation. The changes are only happening now in the UK so if your problem occured a while ago then they were still working "the old way"...ie feck off and prove it. Now you should find things are different.

RuggieBear

Thanks for that Specky. Be useful to know for future (hopefully not!!) reference...

p

Victor

How about fitting a camera to the actual machine?

And changing the law to make the bank at least more responsible for scams? That would encourage them to do something about them.

Specky

In the US there is a camera installed in many ATMs which provides a full face image of the person using the machine and gives enough coverage to see them with the cash in their hand. Both of these are required to give proof of identity and a level of proof that they actually took the money. A second camera providing coverage of the general ATM area is often also installed but this is more for security reasons than anything else.

Yes a law change is what is required but this won't happen unless the issue becomes "important" enough for the government to decide to do it. Banks won't bring it up because it isn't in their best interest to do so, so pressure has to come either from companies like mine (yeah right...they're going to listen to us...ok maybe they would if we gave them a few brown envelopes...) or from the people who it effects most ie the public.