WCW.... tell me more, tell me more....

flogen

Ok, I know I could get a thesis on what happened to WCW on the net, but can someone here sum it up for me?
From what I gather, WCW was the Xbox of wrestling, owned by a man with a bottomless pile of money, they just bought up big names left right and centre.... and i also gather that they were doing a good job at beating WWF up to a point... so what went wrong? when/why did turner sell up? and how did they all fit into such tight spandex?

Flogen

smiaras

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whosurpaddy

well theres plenty of differant factors as to why wcw went tits up, but id say the main one was that they let some main eventers (hogan, hall, hogan nash, hogan goldberg, hogan) have too much power. eric bischoffs philosophy (according to the man himself) was that as long as he had hulk hogan, no matter what else happened, he would continue to beat vince/wwf. so he persued a policy of giving hogan whatever he asked for. eventually bischoff got fired and in came vince russo.

vince russo didnt like playing politics with hogan etc but hogan had a lot of stroke by this stage and this culminated in the main event of bash at the beach 2000 when jeff jarret was to face hogan. russo had jarret lie down for hogan before the match had even started, this was to disgrace hogan and be rid of him (dunno if i explained that all that well, do a google if u want to know more).

also i dont think the admin/training/marketing depts were doing their jobs all that well. heres why

admin: many wrestlers have said that wcw wasted money on many unneccessary expenses,

training: the amount of wrestlers who were big enough stars in wcw, when they came into wwf just couldnt cut it. sean o haire being a prime example

marketing: they did silly things like not having ppv's available worldwide, had many screwy ppv endings,

bad booking:(often booking matches just before or even during a match)

couple that with bischoff being a complete wanker at times, firing people by fax, when the were in hospital etc.

then when turner merged with aol/time warner, aol just wanted rid of wcw and tbh i dont think turner wanted the hassle any more, the guy is a billionaire (a real one, not a mcmahon one) and the biggest private landowner in america. so i dont think it mattered to him either way.

whosurpaddy

hey while looking up a couple things for this post i found that a guy with my name held the NWA title years ago. how bout that maybe i have a long lost wrestling grandad

flogen

so basically WCW burned bright and fast?
they spent too much money and once things slowed down they were caught out.... well from what i can gather above anyway....

and as for that Turner being the biggest land owner in the US, i saw a thing on MTV (i think) where he said that he wants to be able to walk from the west to east coast of america without trespassing on anyone elses property.... nice idea if you can afford it

Flogen

Exit

On a somewhat related note I just watched Bash at the Beach 99 today and it is probably the worst PPV I've ever set my eyes on. It definitely had the worst PPV match I've ever seen: a hardcore brawl in a junkyard; doesn't sound horrific until you consider that
- there was about 10-15 wrestlers who weren't even announced
- the action took place over such a large space that the 2 or 3 cameras didn't pick up most of it and the stuff they did pick up was woeful
- one of their main cameras was from a helicopter up in the sky
- and because there was no crowd you could clearly hear wrestlers calling spots.

At least brawls like that in WWE - the APA pub brawl - are co-ordinated. eg. moves are planned, it's like "ok you do your move now, then you do your move, etc. The WCW match was just uncontrolled crap. They even had cars being crushed and explosions to show how ker-azy it all was. The funniest thing was when they went back to the arena after the match, the cameras panned the crowd only to see scores of empty seats as most people got up and left to go get something to eat or take a piss. The PPV also featured Buff Bagwell v Roddy Piper in a boxing match which Bagwell won thanks to interference from his ma. Yep, crap.

whosurpaddy

tbh stuff like that (not as bad, but similar) was pretty rife in wcw from what ive seen. thats another differance between wcw and wwf, when wcw do something bad, they really go all all out and make complete ****e. bad production was a big one that i left out. and jumpy cameras.

one thing that bugged me about wcw was that the fans used to throw garbage(drinks, popcorn etc) into the ring, and it didnt seem to be discouraged at all. u just wouldnt be allowed in wwf, ud be thrown out.

smiaras

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whosurpaddy

as an aside has anyone ever seen ready to rumble, the movie smiarias speaks of. i knows its ****e but i have a strange inclination to see it.

does it have any plot to speak of?

bizmark

They ruined the heavyweight title's credibility when David Arquette

Aye my god i nearly cryed when i seen that

Glowingmind

The whole WCW thing is fascinating, i never saw much wcw when i was younger, i was aware of who guys like sting were(i have his autograph somewhere) but i've always been a wwf kid so a lot of the stuff that's come out since the collapse of wcw is completely new to me.
From what i've read the collape was down to a whole bunch of factors, the ones above and a whole lot more. Bischoff gets a lot of criticism for his role in the downfall, but apparantly he had very little input into what was going on at the end. The monday night wars dvd looks really interesting anyways

whosurpaddy

In reference to Bischoff "He remained President of WCW until September 1999 when he was fired after revenues took a dive.

He then returned in April 2000 as the creative minds of WCW with Vince Russo but left a few months after when Vince Russo took control of all the bookings and Bischoff felt he wasn't given enough power."

from http://www.wrestleview.com/info/faq/bischoff.shtml great site btw

smiaras

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flogen

just on that David Arquette note, I also read that Robocop was involved once as Stings bodyguard (which was a blatent and stupid plug for robocop 2, a movie made/distributed by, guess who??? Ted Turner)....

Flogen

smiaras

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James R

Just on the subject of Sting, what would people's opinions be of him joining the WWE? It could, with the right scriptwriting, bring about a few good stories.

smiaras

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Glowingmind

Yeah i saw that rumour about sting at wm xx.
The things that would stop sting appearing in the wwe:
He's about 40
He's very wealthy, he did very well out of wcw and wouldn't work anything near the schedule wwe would want him to work.
He disagrees with a lot of the content of wwe programming, he's a devout catholic and finds a lot of it vulgar.

So he may appear at some point, but it would only be very briefly, in a similar way to the rock or mick foley

smiaras

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James R

It would be relatively easy to write him in though. If Undertaker beats Kane at WMXX he could declare him something as the darkest wrestler of all time or some ****e like that and Sting could show up and try prove him wrong etc and have some mad kinda match at Backlash and then bye bye Sting and bye bye Undertaker because they'll retire while both having a wad full of cash to sleep nicely on

oneofakind32

Sky Sports are showing old WCW stuff from 1991 under the name WWE Clasics. Its dosent seem to bad. Its from when they had Cactus Jack and Stunning Steve Austin

NeroTheExtreme

Originally posted by bizmark
Aye my god i nearly cryed when i seen that

Well to be honest, Jarrett deserved to be thrown in with David Arquette, he's a talentless waste! But what the hell did Page do to deserve to be thrown in the mix back then? Russo must have really hated him.

Nero

NeroTheExtreme

Originally posted by oneofakind32
Sky Sports are showing old WCW stuff from 1991 under the name WWE Clasics. Its dosent seem to bad. Its from when they had Cactus Jack and Stunning Steve Austin

Ah yes, when Austin could actually wrestle wrestle, as opposed to the brawling style he had to adapt before Owen botched his neck.

Nero

smiaras

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NeroTheExtreme

Originally posted by smiaras
Jeff Jarrett? He's a quality heel, he was about the only good thing in WCW at the time of its demise

Yeah, but look at his competition! Anyone could have made him look good in WCW between 1999 and 2001! DWANE GILL could have made Jarrett look good!

Nero

smiaras

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purplemonkey

Since the Undertaker is returning as the phenom, I think it would be interesting if Sting became Taker's enforcer or something like that. What do you think?

Gillie

I thought he was just returning for WMXX?
One last paycheck and then gone? Jesus I hope so.
The man cant cut it anymore!

NeroTheExtreme

Originally posted by smiaras
Even in the WWE he was way over as a heel, poor old JJ liked to run his mouth...think thats why we'll never see him in the WWE again

Ah I dunno, he went downhill after Owen's death, it was a matter of months before his ass was canned. Besides, he doesn't need the WWE now that he has the Jeff Jarret Show... oops, sorry, I meant NWA-TNA

Nero

NeroTheExtreme

Originally posted by Gilly2003
I thought he was just returning for WMXX?
One last paycheck and then gone? Jesus I hope so.
The man cant cut it anymore!

Yeah, I was under the impression he was retiring afterwards, altho it'd be pointless to have him lose at a Wrestlemania, they might keep him around for a month to be buried for good at Backlash maybe?

Nero

Gillie

Maybe he and kane can be buried together in a cyrpt with Katie Vick???:D

NeroTheExtreme

Triple H's sordid idea of a fatal four-way indeed
Nero

smiaras

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NeroTheExtreme

Sting never did all that much for me. Always felt he was overrated, and seeing him at WWA confirmed it for me.

Nero

Johnmb

I'd say the Undertaker will stick around until Survivor Series. That would seem the most obvious thing for him to do, leave via the same event he entered.

NeroTheExtreme

Oh god, i hope not. If he does, at least keep him out of the ring! I'm convinced he took up that biker angle so that he wouldn't have to walk to the ring cos it'd take half an hour alone!

Nero

whosurpaddy

no id imagine that he will be around until next wrestlemania (at least) as it would make a nice feather in a young guys cap to say that he ended the deadmans undefeated streak at wrestlemania.

NeroTheExtreme

We're talking about the Underseller here, he who wouldn't put John Cena over at Vengeance last year but only did it on Smackdown the following Thursday!

Nero

Johnmb

I just hope that if he does stick around until Survivor Series, they keep him in his own program with a few other non-main-eventers. Keep the rivalry with Kane up, bring in Mideon, maybe even Sting, and let a feud run along the side lines, you could even involve the Rock and a returning Mankind to keep it interesting. He won't put over any up-and-commers, so keep him away from them, and keep him out of the title picture. If they do that, he won't be so bad, and if booked properly it could be quite entertaining.

Digsy

I'm not overly excited about the Dead man's return , he'll have too have gone on some diet since SS to look god in the pop socks outfit again.

But to not want him back at all , for what ever length of time , is down right disrespectfull.

The Undertaker has been a great character , and lets face it that's all they all are is characters.

If he has'nt earned the right to come back , or hang around in some shape or form over the next few years , than no one has

Gillie

Fair enough digsy but it shouldn't be at other ppls expense.
So long as they keep him away from title fueds etc. i have no problem with him being around.
His last title fued with Lesner was a disaster. Lesner Destroyed him. IMO he's just not believable at that level anymore.

But thats just me:)

NeroTheExtreme

Originally posted by Digsy
But to not want him back at all , for what ever length of time , is down right disrespectfull.

The Undertaker has been a great character , and lets face it that's all they all are is characters.

If he has'nt earned the right to come back , or hang around in some shape or form over the next few years , than no one has

So has Hogan and Nash's NWO personas, but i certainly don't want them back either!
It's called overstaying your welcome, and Calloway has done that by about at least three years.

Nero

oneofakind32

I think undertakers return is the best angle in years . when the blue light came on and bell tolled on raw, it sent a shivver down my spine. I cant wait to see how he makes his enterence at MSG on the 14th. I think taker can still hack it for another year. The match wont be the best on the card for sure but it should still be decent

Bungalow Bill

I know i'm a little biased when it comes to the undertaker but I think they have handled this return patiently and effectively. I mean, isn't everyone wondering how exactly he is going to come back at WM and what a moment it will be? They have revamped his deadman gimmick of being ridiculously unpredictable in stark contrast to the drab biker gimmick.

James R

I can see him making a Sting-style entrance from the roof It'll be interesting alright to see how its done and how he looks. I mean has he lost weight since SS? How long is his hair? Hes not as young as he was when he was last in this role? Will it look stupid or can be pull it off?

Bungalow Bill

I assume it will be a combination of hair extentions and whatever he's grown since he left. I reckon he will pull it off. Even back in the day he was always slow moving and methodical anyway, i don't see anything that he won't be able to do.
They also might give him an edgier take on the look as they have done with kane in the past.

JippoKelly

I welcome his return as the Deadman, as Old School Underseller. The gimmick suited him b4 and i'm sure it will be great until he gets beaten in some kind of Buried Alive or Casket match and disappears for another few months only to return as Leroy from Fame back from the grave. 'Deadman Dancing'. Can't wait!

Once they don't change his gimmick again I'll be happy. Stick to the Phenom. If it doesn't work out, Vince better let the man retire from the WWE with some dignity at least. Don't reinvent him as Hollywood Undertaker or anything stupid like that.

NeroTheExtreme

Originally posted by Bungalow Bill
I assume it will be a combination of hair extentions and whatever he's grown since he left. I reckon he will pull it off.

Last time they tried something like that was at Vengeance 2003 with the return of Mr. Ass, and the worlds most dangerous hair weave! Before that was Glen Jacobs as the fake Diesel who had to get extra extensions as he didn't have enough time to grow his hair.

Neither were convincing.
Nero

Digsy

Even a half arsed 'Taker would be better than half the tripe on WWE at the moment .

For me the Character is the most important thing , more important than being able to cut it in the ring and even being at the best fitness level ( within reason obviously ) - Look at Austin - he's f***ed physically and he's still one of the best things on the show . And I think 'Taker is the same.

And Nero , if you've done as much as he has done for WWE , you deserve the keys to the kingdom and there's no such thing as overstaying your welcome .

They are not footballers were at a certain age (again , within reason ) they become a liability , the can be as strong or weak as McMahon sees fit .

Who cares if it's believable , we all know it fake !
( or has no one explained that to you Nero ? )

I my view , if the character is as popular as The Undertaker , Austin , Rock , Foley etc. , they can come and go as they please.

Fair enough they shouldn't be still in the title picture , not all of the time anyway , but they've earned their stripes and should be welcome anytime.

Not being able to walk anymore or needing a drip to get to the ring like the Sheik is an obviously exception to this , he looked awful in that Gimmick battle royal a few years ago .But Flair and Funk have proven you can still put on a entertaining show , no on as expecting them to compete with Angle and Benoit for match of the year ...

smiaras

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NeroTheExtreme

Originally posted by Digsy
Even a half arsed 'Taker would be better than half the tripe on WWE at the moment .

And Nero , if you've done as much as he has done for WWE , you deserve the keys to the kingdom and there's no such thing as overstaying your welcome .

Who cares if it's believable , we all know it fake !
( or has no one explained that to you Nero ? )

I my view , if the character is as popular as The Undertaker , Austin , Rock , Foley etc. , they can come and go as they please.

With all due respect Digsy, hop off your high horse before you stroll on to the board, surely by reading responses by the regulars to those who have a bee in the bonnet to those who "diss their fave's", that you'd learn that abuse generally isn't tolerated. Each has their own opinion and is generally respected, if not agreed by everyone else.

His character WAS, and I mean WAS unbelievable especially for 1990, he had people looking in awe, legit "who IS this guy" awe. And it evolved well with the ministry and all that. Then he went on his hiatus in the summer of 1999 and came back out of shape, out of character and out of drawing power. His "I demand respect!" angle bored most fans to tears. The only younger athlete he's really put over has been Cena and barely Maven. Two guys in four years! Way to go Calloway, what a stand up guy.

And I'm well aware it's worked, chances are i've been watching it twice as long as you, but doesn't stop me from taking it seriously.

And please, don't attempt to reply to this post unless it's constructive and makes some sense.

Cheers,
Nero