Selling out........

Bungalow Bill

Recently Franz Ferdinand were accused of selling out because of having their video playlisted on MTV and entering very high in the mainstream charts with 'Take me out'.
My point is that do any of us know exactly what selling out is??
Is it dumping your indie label for a bigger one?
Is it selling loads of records?
Is it advertising for companies??

The 'selling out' issue is always one brought up as a case not to like a band/musician but is it really a solid argument??

Loads of bands are accused of this:manics, linkin park, metallica, the darkness etc.

Mossy Monk

i hate that term "selling out"

its a load of **** tbh. so what if a band gains more exposure and make a nice little earning from it

Quatre Mains

- most (not all) bands who are around for a long period of time tend to veer towards musical normality rather than further into experimentation. This is fine with me - after all my musical tastes change as well as time goes on. "Selling out" is a quite bitter term, often used by the fan who is disgusted when he hears his idols on the radio or sees them on tv. They feel superior to others for knowing about bands that no-one else has heard about, and media exposure takes that away from them - calling them sell-outs is their petty revenge for what they feel is a betrayal. Thats not to deny that many bands sound all the better for age - most of my fav bands have no more than a couple of top albums(Manics, DM, Dismemberment Plan, Megadeth, the list goes on and on). A lot of bands try to evolve their sound in order to avoid 'sameness' and I suppose this disappoints the hardcore crowd who fell in love with the original sound. For example, Metalica are accused of selling out despite not releasing a music video till their 4th album.
"cashing in" is a valid term in some cases - The Darkness being one, but hey who can blame them, after all they are just panto. But how could anyone accuse them of selling out? Who did they betray, or did I just never hear about their old life as Dream Theater-like prog rockers? I would do the exact same thing and anyone who says otherwise is talking through their hole. Why turn down the $$$ you can make for a couple of days work shooting Pepsi ads, doing a reunion tour or whatever to keep some spotty teen who probably illegaly downloaded your album from the net happy?

Neil

ferdi

selling out -

Nofx have never let any commercial radio stations or Mtv play their music/videos. when they do, they will be "selling out".

Ro: maaan!

Originally posted by ferdi
selling out -

Nofx have never let any commercial radio stations or Mtv play their music/videos. when they do, they will be "selling out".

MTV2 is still MTV.

And it's becomming more and more like it everyday...

Badly Drunk Boy

To me "selling out" is when a band purposefully changes their sound to become popular. I've no problem with a band that does their stuff and become popular. I just don't like when the music is changed just for that reason.

Very appropriately, at the moment I'm listening to the latest CD by The Fall. They started out in the punk era, and they didn't change their sound to sell more records. But when the singer, Mark E. Smith, appeared on Top Of The Pops as guest vocalist on one of The Inspiral Carpets singles, I thought it was great, rather than think that he had sold out. (The fact that he took a piece of paper with the lyrics out of his pocket during the performance in case he forgot only added to the whole effect).

But anyway, the main reason I mention The Fall was that in the early eighties they had a song called 'Hip-Priest' which was about the way people in certain bands at the time would come to Mark E. Smith after they had a chart hit, almost asking for absolution from him (the Hip-Priest) for selling out.

The funny, or maybe amazing, thing is that the song 'Hip-Priest' was used in the film 'Silence Of The Lambs'. 'Tisn't exactly a pop tune....

the fnj

You do a commercial your off the artist roll call forever, and that goes for everyone except for Willie Nelson.
Ever word you say is suspect and you’re a corporate whore.

Selling out ^

Töpher

Originally posted by Badly Drunk Boy
To me "selling out" is when a band purposefully changes their sound to become popular. I've no problem with a band that does their stuff and become popular. I just don't like when the music is changed just for that reason.

Was gonna point out the eact same thing myself. I look upon it as the changing of style purely for financial and popularity reasons. Nothing wrong with changing styles, like bands of alot of styles, and bands that play alot of styles, but am disgusted by bands that change their sound to sell more records. Music isn't about selling records.

*cough* Metallica *cough*

FANJ's Bill Hicks quote also holds true! Except, of course, for Willie Nelson!

Badly Drunk Boy

Are ya going to see Neubauten in April? Or should I ask?;)

Töpher

Of course you shouldn't ask!!

/me applauds Badly Drunk Boy :ninja:

DrunkLeprachaun

I don't think linkin park are sellouts, I think they were always ****. The Darkness or Franz Ferdinand aren't sellouts, because they're playing what they've always played. It's still quite good, they're making shedloads of money, they're living the rock and roll dream, and I say good luck to them. Metallica however epitomise selling out. I can't be accused of being one of those people who's bitter because other people heard of them, because I was never a fan in the first place, but now I despise them completely.

Originally posted by Ro: maaan!
MTV2 is still MTV.

And it's becomming more and more like it everyday...

Perhaps they were endevouring to prevent MTV2 from being like MTV in the first place, and that's why they let their stuff be shown there.

Ro: maaan!

Originally posted by DrunkLeprachaun
Perhaps they were endevouring to prevent MTV2 from being like MTV in the first place, and that's why they let their stuff be shown there.

Yea, good point. I suppose it's more the audience that it'll go out to than the network it's showing on that matters to them...

Cheez

"All you read and
Wear or see and
Hear on TV
Is a product
Begging for your
Fatass dirty
Dollar"

- TooL

comet

For me its a band letting its precious music be used on a cheesy comercial(e.g. badly drawn boy on kelloggs cornflakes...even though i still like him) I have no problem with a band being played on MTV, big deal.

Doctor J

Yet people still bytch about Coldplay, even though they refused $80m for their music to be used in adverts?

Selling out is, to me, altering (diluting) your sound to appeal to a more mainstream audience. So yes, Metallica's change from AJFA to the black album reeks of sell-out to me. Whether their subsequent Load and Re-Load releases were sellouts is hard to say, I thought they just sucked, I can't see how those crap tunes would appeal to anyone.

If you start out with a mainstream sound and that's what your into, that's not really selling out. To sell out, you have to have something to sell out in the first place.

Kali

Originally posted by comet
For me its a band letting its precious music be used on a cheesy comercial(e.g. badly drawn boy on kelloggs cornflakes...even though i still like him) I have no problem with a band being played on MTV, big deal.

so the following well respected artists have in your opinion "sold out" then?

Portishead
Amon Tobin
Sigur Ros
Arab Strap
Lamb
Aphex Twin
Air

all of which have done commercials.. Arab Strap are one of my favourite bands and the absolute anti-thesis of sellouts, their music is hardly accesible to the masses.

Doctor J

I'd say Yes. The moment you allow your music to be used by some corporation to promote their product, then that is what selling out is all about. You drop to the same level as they guy who sings the Mexwell House ad.

comet

Originally posted by Kali
so the following well respected artists have in your opinion "sold out" then?

Portishead
Amon Tobin
Sigur Ros
Arab Strap
Lamb
Aphex Twin
Air

all of which have done commercials.. Arab Strap are one of my favourite bands and the absolute anti-thesis of sellouts, their music is hardly accesible to the masses.

Well I did say a cheesy commercial, The Shinning is such a great song by BDB but it just pisses me off to hear it on Kelloggs cornflakes add, really does. I don't know off-hand what adds the above bands have done but if they are for toilet rolls, tampons or tea bags then are you happy about that?? Well "selling out" is litterally a good description for me as they are selling there music purely for money, whereas when they sell it on cd its not just about money, it about being recognised as a talent and spreading the magic.

Kali

Originally posted by comet
Well "selling out" is litterally a good description for me as they are selling there music purely for money, whereas when they sell it on cd its not just about money, it about being recognised as a talent and spreading the magic.

A lot of the time its not down to the band themselves.. but the record company.. Sigur Ros have recently signed to EMI, hence their appearance in the NSPCC ad (in fairness a rather noble ad, without over-riding commercial means).. and on that point I guess if the advert (both the direction of the video as well as the product being sold) is reflective of the song being used then the bands (and record companys.. who do actually take band image very seriously) would generally have no problem allowing the use of the track... but to label all bands who do any sort of commercial as sell-outs is just plain ignorance (yet those bands that don't will still try and flog as many tshirts, hats, cups, badges, mtv videos as possible at EVERY opportunity).

MiCr0

does this make moby/mic christopher sellouts too?

Doctor J

Ironically, Moby's turn as the corporate whore probably did his career more harm than good (though finanially he thrived).

If you say Yes, your music is the new voice of Toilet Duck, Baked Beans, some financial institution, a car, whatever, that is selling out. That is when your artistic gift becomes nothing more than product.

The Beatles didn't do it (until Wacko bought the rights and sold them out) and Coldplay don't do it. Just because most artists seemingly can't wait for a suck on the corporate teat, it doesn't make it creditable. Regardless of how innovative your music may be, once you allow a corporation to expolit it for them to sell their product, that is selling out, almost by definition.

Executive Steve

to me its a term i wouldnt really enjoy using but if you want to be specific about it i think that if you sit down and before you've even played/programmed a note you're thinking about how to make a tune that will sell as many copies as possible then you are imo cheapening music as a form of artistic expression and downgrading musicianship from art to a job that is no different from any other.

check pre 97 dillinja and you hear someone with one of the most cinematic and emotional musical identities in the last fifteen years. check 99% of his post 97 output and its the sound of a man making noisy agressive identikit stuff with the same drumkit and zero inspiration. he's in the guinness book of world records for having the worlds largest and loudest soundsystem [the valve sound system] and has come to regard it as his job to create ever more obnoxious farty bass noisesjust to show it off....

BaZmO*

Originally posted by Doctor J
I'd say Yes. The moment you allow your music to be used by some corporation to promote their product, then that is what selling out is all about. You drop to the same level as they guy who sings the Mexwell House ad.

Does that mean that every band that played Witnness over the last few years have sold out?? After all, Witnness was a big promotion of Guinness!


B.

Doctor J

It's impossible to exist without some element of commerciality. I don't know of any festival that isn't sponsored. A band has to promote themselves and their music. My point is, when a band signs over the rights to their music to be used for promotion by a non-musical entity (charities aside) that is selling out. The band no longer has control of their music. They have sold their music (selling out) for non musical usage.

I recall the Black Crowes got kicked off a tour supporting ZZ Top years ago because they spoke out against the sponsorship of the tour.

Ro: maaan!

Krusty the Clown.

magpie

Dr J: Coldplay don't do it

Yes, but they're still Jesus-bothering, teetotal, oxbridge, insipid, teen-bedroom radiohead by numbers ****. And Chris Martin is more pompous than Bono to boot. Death to Coldplay. Long live Rock'n'Roll.

Doctor J

That may be so but they still didn't sell out