A United Ireland

Mighty_Mouse

Im unable to fully contribute to this debate at the moment. It just makes me sick to see how greed, prosperity and selfishness have turned some modern Irish people is to americanised, culturally devoid, day-to-day living, idealless, media hungry, intellectually stifled robots .

I am sick to think that some people here care more about their BMW's, 4x4's , and foreign holidays than the plight of the Northern Irish - Irish.

Economic reasons are a joke of an excuse. (a larger economy, hugely devloped infrastructure in NI, etc etc. For economic reasons alone it make more sense for the Island to operate as a whole in an international market.

The fear of terror etc - I the union is done correctly then we can minimise this. Protestants, orangemen, unionists have to be assured that their cultures and beliefs are welcomed in a multicultural Ireland. After being abandoned by england for so long this might be more possible than ye may think.

Originally posted by Typedef
Currency?

Euro.

Sweet mother of divine intervention

I never thought I'd see a post from typedef advocating the euro ...

/ note to self check the proof of the whiskey I've been drinking here as I wait for a connecting flight and check back later

On the central topic,I have no truck with a united Ireland, I can see it coming eventually in some form or other, possibly initially in some variation of the form typedef has mentioned.

dlofnep

The poll:

I don't think you have understood the reasoning behind the poll. It is not to see what James McDean at Number 5, Oak Terrace In Dublin 4 thinks, nor is it not to see what Steven McCool in 27 Rice Crispy Square thinks. It is a poll to see if there is a divide between catholics and protestants and their opinions.

If you are of a different faith, do not feel secluded. Now, if anybody can not grasp that much, then I am sorry, but I cannot make it anymore comprehendible than it is.

Nuttzz

I am sick to think that some people here care more about their BMW's, 4x4's , and foreign holidays than the plight of the Northern Irish - Irish.

Nuttz only cares about Nutzz, his family and his friends.

Nutzz didnt like the abuse that the christain brothers doled out to him in school so he moved.

Nutzz didnt like the vandals bricking the house he lived in for 15 years so he moved

The people who were not happy about living in northern ireland were not forced to live there.

I have to laugh for years people in the north cried about civil rights (quite rightly) but still wouldnt move south because the welfare system is better in the north.
Back in the 80's the Unionists made an arguement that the south couldnt afford to take on the north because of the cost of the welfare state

"What about th UDA etc bombing Dublin and the rest of ireland" then you people are stupid. The only major bombing any loyalist para's have done was the Dublin bombing and EVERYONE knows it was made by British bomb experts. They dont have the intelligence to mount an offensive without the suppose of the police or the army

Wakey Wakey, the provo's couldnt bomb their way out of a paper bag in 1969, didnt stop them learning did it? You assume that none of their mates in Combat 18 wouldnt give them a hand, or that they wouldnt learn how to do it themselves just like the provos :rolleyes:

But obviously a lot of the people down south dont have the same feelings as the people do up here. So maybe Reefbreak is right, perhaps the U.D.A should stick a few bombs up your asses with a msg saying "made by the british army" and then you'll get back the fighting irish spirit, then again maybe not.

how old are you? 10? People down here dont want (or need) to die for basket cases like you

Sparks

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Im unable to fully contribute to this debate at the moment. It just makes me sick to see how greed, prosperity and selfishness have turned some modern Irish people is to americanised, culturally devoid, day-to-day living, idealless, media hungry, intellectually stifled robots .

Robots? Because we don't happen to think that blowing up children with pipe bombs is a better way to live our lives? Because we're out to make a better life for ourselves and our kids and their kids through education and getting better jobs and nicer houses and better infrastructure and improving the healthcare system and a dozen other important avenues?

It may not be as hollywood as setting off bombs or dragging a father out of his home to shoot him in front of his kids, but to say it's not better than that?

Go take a long walk off a short pier.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by markomac316
thats not what I meant. We've had thousands of people from the North give up their lives for a united Ireland. Its about time people from the free state understood this and wised up and said yes we are going to do something about it. And im afraid your wrong, with your "30 years of trouble". There has been trouble in Ireland ever since a foreign nation took control.

And no I dont mean its another way forward to another 30 years of murder and grief. I mean it is the only way forward. Ever since there was a free state, the people in the North have fought back, and we will continue to do so. The only way to stop that is by the Brits giving in. And if people turn around and say "What about th UDA etc bombing Dublin and the rest of ireland" then you people are stupid. The only major bombing any loyalist para's have done was the Dublin bombing and EVERYONE knows it was made by British bomb experts. They dont have the intelligence to mount an offensive without the suppose of the police or the army.

As for the I.R.A disarming when there is a united Ireland they will do. That is their objective to have a united Ireland and when that happens they will disarm, because simply there is nothing left to fight for.

But obviously a lot of the people down south dont have the same feelings as the people do up here. So maybe Reefbreak is right, perhaps the U.D.A should stick a few bombs up your asses with a msg saying "made by the british army" and then you'll get back the fighting irish spirit, then again maybe not.

And you don't think loyalists wouldn't start to bomb our country if a united Ireland came into existence? Considering the distain and contempt that protestants are treated with by a huge proportion of catholics on the island, I imagine it would be a near certainty. They may not have the intelligence or the manpower now, but neither did the 'RA at then end of the 60s...

As for your comment that a United Ireland is the only way forward. You're wrong, wrong, wrong. If one innocent life has to die for it, then I'm against it - it's simply not worth it. ...Which is why I find your comment that the IRA will only disarm when there is a United Ireland, and there is nothing left to fight for to be vomit-making. The IRA never fought anyone. They were a cowardly bunch of terrorists that left bombs in pubs, town centres before running away like the cowardly scum that they are.

Fighting Irish spirit? What fighting spirit did the IRA have? They were terrorists. They were nothing less than a disgrace to Ireland and every decent citizen in this country. The only "Irish" in NI that I care for are those that did not embrace or support the IRA and terrorism (and there were plenty of those, catholics or otherwise). The rest can rot.

Civilian_Target

I live in Belfast. And I say, let me get out, then cut northern Ireland out of Ireland, get a very big tug and stick it into the middle of the atlantic. And let them fight to death. I'm catholic, I'm sick of the violence, the politics of this place are totally ****ed up and I can tell you for free that a united Ireland is an economicly impossible and socially unacceptable pipe dream.

The Irish don't want it, the Brits don't want it, and the people of NI want both! The worst scenario for the North is that the brits dump them, lets face it, without the £2billion (thats £2000 per man,woman and child, per year! ) they pour into this black hole of a country to try to help balance the books, NI is screwed.

Combining the South and the North? Not a prospect that i really find myself yearning for these days. When i was younger and full of tales of Irish Rebels, yes, but now? Not a chance.

Whats the point? If the people in the North wanted to be Irish, they could have moved to the south. For the most part they stayed, and lived under British rule. The chose to be British Subjects. I choose to be an Irish Citizen.

The North would just be a millstone to break the back of the Republic. I'm not even talking abt the economic reprecussions, but rather there are too many issues still ongoing in the North, for the Republic to safely integrate back.

Jaden

I listed three reasons why I wouldn't want a united Ireland, they were:

Economic mayhem.
A divided, bitter population.
Military factions running organised crime.

Reason one is bang on. Every fact and figure I see shows that NI is a money pit that Britain props up.

Reason two is where people like markomac316 fit. If I thought for one minute that he reflected mainstream Irish thinking, I'd hand back my passport and move somewhere else. This kind of "Let's die for Ireland and kick some hun ass" thinking ( I use the term loosely) is frightening.

Reason three worries me the most. No paramilitary organisation is going to give up it's control of organised crime. The IRA won't, and the UDA won't. Too much cushy power. Both organisations were found on a set of principles long since cast aside. The IRA, in a united Ireland, would soon become public enemy number one, the day they shoot and kill a member of the Gardai. Oh wait, they've already done that.

NI nationalists have one definition of what it is to be Irish, in many ways differing from what someone in the republic beleives is Irish. In truth, the NI viewpoint is probably morelike the Irish-American (plastic paddy) viewpoint, then it is like anything else. The chasm grows wider every day.

It will take a long time to reintegrate these viewpoints into a common vision.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by markomac316
thats not what I meant. We've had thousands of people from the North give up their lives for a united Ireland. Its about time people from the free state understood this and wised up and said yes we are going to do something about it.

How many people in the North have given up their lives for a United Ireland? Thousands? Absolute, complete and utter balderdash.

Let's take 1969-94:

- Total Killed: 3225
- Civilians Killed: 1739. These were civilians with no links to paramilitary organisations. They did not die for a united ireland, they were simply murdered.
- NI Security Forces (mostly UDR/RUC): 494. Certainly didn't die for a united ireland.
- Non-NI Security Forces (mostly regular Brit. Army): 501. Again, certainly didn't die for a united ireland.
- Loyalists Killed: 103. Ditto.
- Republicans killed: 383. Depending on how they were killed, you might say they gave up their lives for a united ireland. But as much as I oppose the death penalty, like some of the loyalists, some of them probably deserved to die. For example: the man that got killed planting a bomb in a fish shop on the Shankill Road.

markomac316

Thats only from 1969 - 1994...Did life just start at 1969? I dont think so, try going back hundreds of years ago, during the great hunger {and please dont say but Ireland was united then because it was being controlled by a foreign country} thousands of people died because THEY refused to swear alligence to the crown of England.

How are they I.R.A terrorists?, they were fighting a war against the British state, and in every war innocent people are killed. Its people like you who should be ashamed to call themselves Irish. I've had neighbours who were tortured at the hands of the British army, I've had my family lifted and put into prison for no reason, I've had an uncle killed through collusion, I've seen the cops help burn out my friends parents old house {through video footage}. If you dont have a hate for people who would do that to your own people then there is something wrong with you. And this kind of thing has been going own for centuries. Bbut you've probably got your nice little house in the free state and your very happy with that and so dont give two tosses about the missing 6.

And someone said about us moving...Why should we move we live in Ireland!. My advice to people who dont want the missing 6 is go and listen to your national anthem..Whats playing The Soldiers Song, or God Save the Queen, because for most people here its God save the queen. And by chance if your listening to the Soldiers Song listen to the lyrics

"Sworn to be free"...
"Sons of the Gael! Men of the Pale!
The Long watched day is breaking;
The serried ranks of Innisfail
Shall set the tyrant quaking.
Our camp fires now are burning low;
See in the east a silvery glow,
Out yonder waits the saxon foe,
So sing a soldier's song"

David-[RLD]-

Yeah you have a point. A lot of people here don't care about a United Ireland because 26 counties got independence and that's all they care about. They just abandon the other 6 because they have happy go-lucky lives in the Republic.

The country these days seems to be a tad Anglicised if you ask me, especially with FF in government.

And yeah, innocent people die in every war; guerrilla or not.

ReefBreak

Placing a bomb in a pub and murdering 21 people is terrorism.
Placing a bomb in a city centre is terrorism.
Placing a bomb in a shopping centre is terrorism.
Placing a bomb in a remembrance day parade is terrorism.
Murdering a retired RUC officer is terrorism.
Hell, murdering an on duty RUC officer is terrorism.
The IRA were not fighting a war, they were waging a terrorist campaign.
They intentionally murdered over 800 innocent civilians over the course of the troubles.
The IRA are terrorists. Deal with it.

Note that I sing the National Anthem when I'm at a hurling match. But then again, most countrys' national anthems are fairly blood-thirsty tune, so I can live with it. But the difference between you and me is that it doesn't give me an excuse to defend the actions of murdererous scum.

ireton

wow, I thought it was only the dup who could get that emotional about "thousands of years ago"
how come no Protestant: NI: no (over my dead body in fact) - I detect a popish plot!

David-[RLD]-

Haven't you people ever heard of Éire Nua?

Each province gets its own federal Dáil which in turn are presided over by Dáil Éireann and Seanad Éireann. That way the Unionists can stop moaning and can take seats in Dáil Uladh.

Tis a good idea imo. If a fully United Ireland under just Dáil agus Seanad Éireann won't work, then the Éire Nua programme seems to be our best bet for unity.

Sparks

I've yet to see a good reason for a united Ireland.

Feel free to supply one, but please note:

"But it's our manifest destiny!" is not a good reason.
"But we're all one island!" is not a good reason, or europe and asia would be one single country, as would north and south america.

I want a reason that gives us a sound, provable, non-ideological benefit to going through the difficult process of bringing it about.
Does anyone have one?

markomac316

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Placing a bomb in a pub and murdering 21 people is terrorism.
Placing a bomb in a city centre is terrorism.
Placing a bomb in a shopping centre is terrorism.
Placing a bomb in a remembrance day parade is terrorism.
Murdering a retired RUC officer is terrorism.
Hell, murdering an on duty RUC officer is terrorism.
The IRA were not fighting a war, they were waging a terrorist campaign.
They intentionally murdered over 800 innocent civilians over the course of the troubles.
The IRA are terrorists. Deal with it.

So how about shooting missiles into schools that are defenseless?, into hospitals etc..so that makes America terrorists right, well going by what your saying they are, or are they not cause they use missiles.

The are an army fighting a war get over it.

Typedef

Originally posted by markomac316

And no I dont mean its another way forward to another 30 years of murder and grief. I mean it is the only way forward. Ever since there was a free state, the people in the North have fought back, and we will continue to do so. The only way to stop that is by the Brits giving in. And if people turn around and say "What about th UDA etc bombing Dublin and the rest of ireland" then you people are stupid. The only major bombing any loyalist para's have done was the Dublin bombing and EVERYONE knows it was made by British bomb experts. They dont have the intelligence to mount an offensive without the suppose of the police or the army.

Ahh grasshopper.

The biggest mistake one can make in an adversarial situation is underestimating one's enemy.

If what you say is true, then what's to stop the 'Brits' arming/supplying intelligence to the Loyalist provos, in an ironic parody of the Irish government supplying arms etc to the Republican provos?

Nothing is the answer and the British state has an economy somewhere between 16 and 17 times the size of the Irish one.

Think it through, domination by one side over another will only lead to more, violence.

Besides, I don't want to force Unionists into a State they don't want to live in, that would make me as bad as the likes of Ian Paisley, who created the Northern state to the advantage of it's Loyalist/Unionist population.

Joint authority or total partition, it's the only egalitarian solution.

You shouldn't allow yourself to stoop to thinking that it would be OK, for an envigorated quasi-Republican settlement to stand on Unionism, because of history. That's why they call it history, because it's in the past, a future settlement has to be built on consesus, mutual inclusion and mutual respect.

One side dominating the other is just a leopard of a different stripe, different record, same tune.

markomac316

They forced us to do the same here, why shouldnt we do the same. At the end of the day in a United Ireland they would be treated equally, unlike Republicans and Nationalists current in the Occuppied 6.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by markomac316
So how about shooting missiles into schools that are defenseless?, into hospitals etc..so that makes America terrorists right, well going by what your saying they are, or are they not cause they use missiles.

The are an army fighting a war get over it.

FFS. Sinn Féin's Defend the 'RA Soundbite #43: use the War in Iraq to justify the IRA. Where have I mentioned that a missile going astray in a market in Baghdad and killing scores of people of okay?

Question: if a loyalist bombs a pub in Dublin, does that make it okay for the IRA to do the same in Belfast?

markomac316

You didnt mention it and thats my point. And who said I was talking about Iraq, every war they've went into they have killed innocent people.

No its not right, though it is right for the I.R.A to find the culprits behind it and bring them to justice.

Can I ask you one question though? By any chance do you have any family or friends living in a nationalist area in the North of Ireland? cause if you do if it wasnt for the I.R.A they wouldnt be alive.

David-[RLD]-

Why do people want a United Ireland? Hmmm.... maybe...

Ireland was one country with its own system of law before the English invaded (Brehon Law, in case you never payed attention in history class). They oppressed us for eight centuries; killed us, tortured us, banned our language, our culture, our heritage, our religion...

They practically made us English. They banned all things that made us Irish.

And now that thanks to years of brave men and women giving their lives for the freedom of our country and that we have a large portion of Ireland under the control of Irish people as it should be, that you turn your backs on the true Irish aim of freedom? What if the 26 counties were still under English rule and you could be interned or beaten up for campaigning for freedom or even speaking as Gaeilge?

What's the difference between that and what's happening in the north presently? Apart from the fact that many agreements have attempted to legitimise the occupation of Ireland by British forces.

And don't start with all this "duh.. but it's not economically viable" or "I do not think it is wise to force the Unionist community into a State they don't want to be part of". But well done if you do. If you can use such a phrase with so many syllables then I'd be surprised because a lot of the excuses for keeping the Six Counties under English rule sound like they have been made up by a little kid. The majority decides on the fate of the country.

If you went back to 1916 and told James Connolly that holding the Rising wouldn't be wise as many people would die and lots of property would get destroyed he would probably hit you.

daveg

Personally I'd prefer if they (pysically) cut N.I off of Ireland and let it float away. I'm sick off all the shíte up there... sick to death of it. Holy Cross Primary School was the last straw for me. I cannot understand why anyone would choose to live in that enviroment regardless if it were home or not.

Typedef

Originally posted by markomac316
They forced us to do the same here, why shouldnt we do the same.

Normally I'd take you up on the them/us reference, but, I'll let that slide.

Why don't we piss on them like they pissed on us?

Because we aren't 10 year old children and we couldn't even if we wanted to, also, I don't want to be the sort of person who exacts tit for tat revenge on others, based on a notion of 'nationality'.

Nationality is well and good, except the likes of Bertie Ahern, Prince Charles or any manstream elite politican/quasi-political icon, never has to put his ass on the line for it. Generally it's the poor, illiterate, uneducated grunts who do that. You might have heard of this 'Imperialist' war called WW1?

I can tell you, the King of England and the Kaiser of Germany certainly didn't get their own hands dirty doing it.

At the end of the day in a United Ireland they would be treated equally, unlike Republicans and Nationalists current in the Occuppied 6.

Perhaps they would, but, Irish people can't force them into it, becuase that takes away their right to self determination, and it is a 'right'.

However you intimated it would be OK, to force Unionists into a Republic and it wouldn't.

Also, the North of Ireland is not occupied, the 'Majority' of people living there want to be part of Britian, fact of life.

I'll not say that being nationalist was a picinic in Northern Ireland, because anybody who has studied history can grasp that Irish were second class citizens under Unionist rule. Lots of that changed when the English took direct control of the North, disbandment of the B Specials etc.

The fact remains that however the border was drawn, it exists, tough. In that border Unionists are the majority, so Unionists 'have' to have the most say, because that's democracy.

The only way around that is 'total' partition, which would cause an all out war as Republican and Loyalist factions murdered each other, so that the 'other' side would be forced to be part of their respective states (as if .. for some reason... you wanted each other).

You said it would be OK to force those people into a United Ireland against their wishes, because 'AFTER' that was done, we'd give them equality, even though you suggested the whole giving Unionists equality bit is flexable.

The choices as I see them are.

1: ) Joint authority (al la the Belfast agreement).
2: ) Repartition

You don't seem to understand that Unionists don't want to sit in the Dial, with an Irish person as head of State, they want to be part of Britian, so no matter what sort of Federalist contortion you put on a Republic, it's not - going - to - wash and the Irish in the 26 counties don't want the security/economic nightmare it would involve.

Maybe, the Northern State should be made soverign and some sort of inter-treaty alliance between Britian-Ireland and the Northern State could come to pass.

The bottom line is, in this scenario, the British have the power.
The fact that we are at a stage now in Northern Irish politics where there is inclusionary politics, which respects the 'minority' Nationalist view of the state, only benefits the Republican political agenda.

In the real world the British don't 'have' to negotiate with the Irish in the least, but, rather then subject themselves to low-level violence, an accomodation has been reached, in which everybody in these islands can 'try' to have a normal life.

Life, liberity the persuit of happiness.

All that crap.

ronanp

Originally posted by Hobbes
You don't believe in God? But which god is it you don't believe in?

I'd imagine it's all the one's you don't, plus one!

sceptre

Originally posted by markomac316
I dont think so, try going back hundreds of years ago, during the great hunger... thousands of people died because THEY refused to swear alligence to the crown of England.

You've got at least two significant historical errors in the above sentence. Three if someone pulls you on 160 years not being quite "hundreds". Neat trick.

markomac316

Because we have to be here, and the thing at Holy Cross was disgraceful but it gave us another chance to show what kind of scum we are living with, who would stop children going to school.

I dont want to piss on them, I just want to live in an Ireland without a crown, and not being controlled by a foreign nation.

And what if we had to force them into a united Ireland, at the end of the day they would see the benefits. Were everyone is treated equally. We may have to bring them in kicking and screaming but they will see at the end its whats best. And if they dont like the idea of being ruled by an Irish leader then they could move back to England or Scotland {cause thats what your saying to us, move down south}.

There are many ways of doing things to make everyone happy. Put assemblys in every province, that way the unionists would be happy because they still have ulster, and that way we're happy cause we're part of Ireland once again.

markomac316

Originally posted by sceptre
You've got at least two significant historical errors in the above sentence. Three if someone pulls you on 160 years not being quite "hundreds". Neat trick.

Sorry that was my mistake. When I said hundreds I was actually meaning hundreds of years ago, over time. I was using the great hunger as an example. And what other mistakes did I make? I'd be grateful if you could tell me so I could pass them onto my old history teacher.

Jaden

Originally posted by markomac316
And what if we had to force them into a united Ireland, at the end of the day they would see the benefits. Were everyone is treated equally. We may have to bring them in kicking and screaming but they will see at the end its whats best. And if they dont like the idea of being ruled by an Irish leader then they could move back to England or Scotland {cause thats what your saying to us, move down south}.

Oh My God.

The fact that you would advocate such an idea show you are unworthy of the label "Irish".


There is only one reply I can think of to this: (Author unknown to me).

THE DUNDALK TO DERRY CANAL

In my blissful dreams I long to see
An inland waterway from sea to sea
From Lough Swilly to County Louth
Dividing north from the south
The largest moat man has ever seen

It would keep our children safe
From Norn Iron sectarian hate
and in the process improve hygiene for all Cavan men
Keeping back the Nordie menace
Turning Clones into the new Venice
and our children sleep safely and live to see old age

Now when times get rough with all that Drumcree stuff
We would see it through without it spreading
While the Leitrim potholes will be filled with H2O
with the Chuckies and Jaffas well confined

Get the JCB to Dundalk town and start digging the sacred ground
and make fertile the Kingscourt and Virginia fields
It will make Adams and Paisley blue
Because the bastards would have shag-all to do
If we build the Dundalk to Derry Canal

(big finale)
The Nordie would be kept away
and their revolting society kept at bay
While the new dam at Lifford gets higher and higher
I can only pray, that EU Interregio funds will pay
for the Dundalk to Derry canal.

ronanp

Originally posted by markomac316
How are they I.R.A terrorists?, they were fighting a war against the British state, and in every war innocent people are killed.

Does terrorism exist at all then, because every act of terror is committed in the name of war? Bombings of Pubs, Parades, Roads, and Shopping Centres are not militarily strategic operations, they are an attempt to destroy ordinary civilian lives.

And someone said about us moving...Why should we move we live in Ireland!.

Whole heartedly agreed. Someone on this thread said they didn't like school so they moved, didnt like where they lived so they moved, etc.. Thats all very well and good if you've got no responsibilities or people to look after, and have the financial means to move whenever you dont like something. The vast majority of people in this or any other country cannot do so.

My advice to people who dont want the missing 6 is go and listen to your national anthem..Whats playing The Soldiers Song, or God Save the Queen, because for most people here its God save the queen.

This is the part of your post that provoked me to respond. Theres a lot tied up in flags and songs, stories and languages, but the only thing they have in common is that none of them are choosen. If you are patriotic because you are Irish, the tricolour is your flag, and Amhran na bhfiann is your anthem, you have all those things in common with someone who is British, waves the Union Jack, and bellows out a chorus of God Save the Queen whenever she waves her royal hand. If your allegiance to a side in a conflict such as this is caused by accident of birth, wouldn't it be fair to say, that had you been boen on the other side of the devide, you'd be every bit as british in your own mind as you are irish in your current one?