A United Ireland

ReefBreak

Couple of things:

You have an Irish passport, so you call yourself Irish. Fine, no problem.

However, after the GFA was passed, we no longer staked a claim to Northern Ireland, because we removed Articles 2 and 3. So if you live in Belfast, this means you live in Northern Ireland. Belfast is the capital of Northern Ireland, Belfast is where local laws are passed concerning Northern Ireland, therefore your capital is Belfast, NOT Dublin. There is no other way around this.

markomac316

No its not..I refuse to recogonise Belfast as my capital. I refuse to accept the state of The North of Ireland all within my rights. You cant tell me what to think, I am a citizen of Ireland, Dublin is my capital {all be it I think Cork deserves to the be the capital} and there is no border seperating this country.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by markomac316
No its not..I refuse to recogonise Belfast as my capital. I refuse to accept the state of The North of Ireland all within my rights. You cant tell me what to think, I am a citizen of Ireland, Dublin is my capital {all be it I think Cork deserves to the be the capital} and there is no border seperating this country.

You can refuse away all you like. I can refuse to accept Dublin as my capital, I can even refuse to accept the fact that the world is round, or that we revolve around the sun. But I live in the real world. And in the real world, Belfast is the capital of NI, the Irish Constitution no longer claims sovereignty over the "Six Counties", the currency is different, and the public institutions where you live are different. The only place where it's not different is in your head. You can also refuse to believe the existence of a border, but look at every map from junior infants to the United Nations, and you'll see that it's there. You live in Northern Ireland, [edit]Belfast is the capital of where you live[/edit], and nothing that you think or say can change that. You can do stuff to change it of course, but if it involves trying to force that change onto the majority of NI through terrorism and violence, then you cease to have the right to even call yourself Irish. In my opinion, you'd be nothing better than savages.

Mighty_Mouse

Do you consider yourself Irish reefbreak? (honest question not targeting/attack)


What traditionally Irish ideals do people in here hold if they dont even believe that the Island of Ireland should be united?

If they dont care that the north of the country exists or not?
Do modern "irish" people not care about the oppression of Irish people in NI (for the last 30 years specifically)?

Is the modern "Irish" ( person born in the country b/c my definition of Irish is different) person typically more interested in the
- profitablity of the multinational company they work for,
- their "yummy mummy" wifes 4x4,
- Man United losing last night
- who Prince William should marry
- accepting OBE's from the queen
- making sure those "savages", "animals", "murderers" (and other names) dont get a chance to ruin the good times for all of us in the south
- foreign holiday to Spain
- next Ralph Lauren tee-shirt for €300
- next cocktail party with other high society friends
- making sure little Winston and Elizabeth get their designer tracksuits to look well in PE class
- and holds a general knowledge level of the local tabloid headlines which are quoted to each other with an assured wink

= money only orientation

(Im not saying that theirs anything wrong with above but to ONLY be concerned with the above is wrong. Its a hollow existence if an Irish person cant identify with what Irishness is and where they come from.)


than traditional ideals such as:
- maintaining the Irish landguage
- supporting Irish music
- supporting our Gaelic games
- the unity of our country
- the defence of our socialist ideals where all members of society should be supported

If you dont stand for traditionally Irish ideals then how can a person define themselves as Irish. Is the person who not ony refuses to defend; but actually attacks traditional Irish values still an irish person?

Are they not better defined as european, worldy or at the very least a bastardised/americanised Irish person?

I would hope that all Irish people would consider their history in making decisions such as
"Nutz cares about noone" etc

I just can see how any true Irish person after reading even one page of our history can state that NI should be chopped off and sank into the middle of the ocean.

Why?

is it to expensive to unite our country?
is it not "economically viable" to unite our country?
is it too difficult to unite our country?
is the struggle to unite our country not worth it?

IMO being Irish is not a birth right but a state of mind.

Do modern "irish" people not care about the oppression of Irish people in NI (for the last 30 years specifically)?

Irish people? They're British subjects. And oppression? The only oppression i hear about that comes from the North, is spoken by republicans. (Sure, there was some oppression of Catholics right up until the 80's, but i'd never describe Catholics as being "Oppressed"). At the end of the day, the North has received far mnore investment in labour, money, and interest by Britain than it ever would have under Irish Governments. And i mean Irish Governments i.e. the Republic of Ireland.

Are they not better defined as european, worldy or at the very least a bastardised/americanised Irish person?

I am European. I am Irish. I am both, and proud to be both. As for the American Reference, thats complete and utter bull****. You're obviously judging a true Irish person as someone that has not evolved from the 1400's.

IMO being Irish is not a birth right but a state of mind

I see this statement and i realise that you view being irish, existing as a Geographical concept. The North is part of the island of Ireland, so it should be united. And being Irish is a birth right. The right to keep it though, is something you need to prove by contibuting to the Republic.

Meh

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
than traditional ideals such as:
- maintaining the Irish landguage
- supporting Irish music
- supporting our Gaelic games
- the unity of our country
- the defence of our socialist ideals where all members of society should be supported

If you dont stand for traditionally Irish ideals then how can a person define themselves as Irish.

So you're telling me I can't be Irish unless I agree with all of those things? There's no room for dissent or opposing opinions in your ideal Ireland? Doesn't sound like a place I'd like to live in.

Mighty_Mouse

Sure, there was some oppression of Catholics right up until the 80's, but i'd never describe Catholics as being "Oppressed").

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Jesus mate!!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG! How can you come to this conclusion? Its so so wrong!

I've always though if you present a rational argument to a person thats theres a chance they will consider it and maby edge towards changing thier opinion.

I now realise that this is not possible. People born is the south with the view that Northern Ireland is a foreign entity with no ties to the south and should be sunk into the ocean, are as extreme as they so called republicans they describe!

Saruman

WTF??? What kind of pole is this to pick either catholic or protestant... im niehter and cant stand religion.
Im from the republic and why the hell should there be a United Ireland? The only time there ever was one was under British rule... before that there was no Ireland.. just a bunch of kings killing each other for a bit of land on this island..

Anyway right now the problems in the north are problems the British must handle... if they become part of the republic every time one of them feckers decide to riot etc its our tax money that has to pay for it...

too much hassle.. lets build a giant "laser" and cut them away from us.. problem solved!

sceptre

Originally posted by markomac316
No its not..I refuse to recogonise Belfast as my capital. I refuse to accept the state of The North of Ireland all within my rights. You cant tell me what to think, I am a citizen of Ireland, Dublin is my capital {all be it I think Cork deserves to the be the capital} and there is no border seperating this country.

The fact that you're a secessionist doesn't affect the fact that Northern Ireland is de facto part of the UK - nor that a border in fact does exist in the real world. You're not going to get any sympathy from Corkonians by playing the real Taoiseach or real capital card either.

jackal

You can keep our bitter cousins north of the border please. Im sure there are lots of nice people, but they seem to be vastly outnumbered by racist, bigoted, sectarian idiots, on both sides of the religious divide.

bonkey

I would suggest that there are a number of posters who need to re-read the rules before bans get handed out for a lack of civility on this thread.

Immediately obvious are markomac316 :

ave you a mental problem? or you slightly disabled?

and Vlad Drac

HAHAHA! Are you from some remote island off the west coast? Have you ever been to the North? You know anyone from the North? Doubt you'll find we are all extremists you arse.

jc

Mighty_Mouse

So you're telling me I can't be Irish unless I agree with all of those things? There's no room for dissent or opposing opinions in your ideal Ireland? Doesn't sound like a place I'd like to live in.

No. Im asking the question : what it means to be Irish? Do you posess or support and distinctly Irish Ideals etc

Its just a little beyond me to understand how an Irish person with an understanding of who they are, where they come from etc etc would want to cut NI off from the rest of the country.

I just do understand how some Irish here give the impression that they would be more excited about a new playstation game or britney spears song than the history and future of our country.

Irish people? They're British subjects.

No they're Irish. Would you have a problem being called a British subject? If you would then understand how insulting your remarks are.

I am European. I am Irish. I am both, and proud to be both. You're obviously judging a true Irish person as someone that has not evolved from the 1400's.

Why are you proud to be Irish?
What is it to be Irish to you? - how can you claim to be a proud Irish man and at the same time think the north should be left to the British. How can you see the Irish people of NI as different to you or I?

As for the American Reference, thats complete and utter bull****.

You dont believe that Ireland and become and is becoming increasingly Americanised?

bastardised - reference to the people in this forum who believe their history, heritage and culture is not important.

You're obviously judging a true Irish person as someone that has not evolved from the 1400's

No I'm not judging like that at all.

Tell me where I'm wrong. Educate me as to what distuinguises you from a European or an American.
Your accent?!!!!!!!!! - Geographical location on the map?!!!!!!!!
Are you happy to be a person who has no concept of Irishness (at least the traditional values ...............if i have missed some tell me where I'm wrong)

jackal

Tell me where I'm wrong. Educate me as to what distuinguises you from a European or an American. Are you happy to be a person who has no concept of Irishness (at least the traditional values ...............if i have missed some tell me where I'm wrong)

I am Irish,
Cant stand traditional music,
Failed Irish Language in the leaving cert - for most of the country it is a dead language, like it or not,
Like a bit of GAA, but only when the Dubs are winning,
Dont believe in the unity of our country,
Agree with the socialist ideals,
Am gutted Man U lost last night.

If you were born south of the border, in the last 25 years, why on earth would you want anything to do with the north? Tell me why I should care? (without dogmatic bull).

All I have ever seen is violence, hatred, power struggles and bitter people. If Irish people north of the border want to become part of the Republic, Sell up, and head south.

markomac316

I was born on the island of Ireland Im irish.

A lot of people dont obviously care about the North and im willing to accept that, but if your of that mindset your pathetic and do not have the right to call yourself Irish.

jackal

Nice contradiction there.

I was born on the island of Ireland Im irish.

Fair enough

your pathetic and do not have the right to call yourself Irish

Do you see the problem here?

markomac316

I can see the problem there. So ok Ill rephrase it "you dont deserve to call yourself irish".

ReefBreak

Originally posted by markomac316
I can see the problem there. So ok Ill rephrase it "you dont deserve to call yourself irish".

We can go around in circles all day here, with comments that someone isn't Irish because they don't fit into a certain box that the poster labelled "Irish". Everyone here is Irish, especially if they have an Irish passport. However, some of us live in the Republic of Ireland, others live in Northern Ireland. All of us live on a Geographical island called Ireland. That's the reality, no more, no less.

But I will say this: anyone that supports or engages in terrorist acts, which results the murder of innocent men, women and children, such as what the IRA/UDA/UFF/INLA have done, most certainly does not deserve to be called Irish. They barely deserve the right to be called human. Like I said earlier, they are nothing but savages.

jackal

Good post!

Thats exactly it. If you think Ireland should be united, fair enough. It does not justify violence.

This is the problem with Northern Irish (and Southern Nationalist) politics, culture and attitudes. If people dont agree with you, insults and questions about your "Irishness" are flung about, like you have some god given right to measure other peoples patriotism.

Its like the idiots who turn off the telly when "God save the queen" is played before a match. Do they think the english powers that be see them doing it? Do you think english people do the same when the Irish anthem is played? Could it be that they dont care?

David-[RLD]-

ah..

First of all, Belfast is part of Ireland, whether you like it or not. Ireland is composed of the Republic and the Six Counties. Don't bother telling us otherwise because you'll just be wasting Boards' precious bandwidth to spread a blatant, ignorant lie.

Secondly, the only reason we removed claim from the Constitution was because we had to give a few things to the Brits in return for what they agreed to in the GFA.
How ironic that the party who changed the Constitution was founded by the man who kept the claim of the North in the Constitution since he 100% believed in Irish unity.... what's more ironic is that his party has been turned into an ignorant load of "politicians" that claim to be Republican yet who are doing everything except what de Valera wanted. Anyway, I think I've done enough FF bashing for one post.

It appears to me that the poll is fairly tied. It's half and half.

As far as I can tell, the British government does not want the Six Counties. The British people (mainland Britain seeing as the north is Irish, and excluding some major exceptions in Scotland) couldn't care less.

Well some people do care. And no matter how many times you mindlessly repeat your excuses for rejecting unity you cannot crush the Republican spirit. It's pathetic to even attempt to stop Republicans from wanting a United Ireland. As we're not going to stop campaigning until we get what we want. People have wanted Irish independence for 800 years so what makes you think they won't any time soon, especially with Sinn Féin's sky-rocketing popularity?

Mighty_Mouse

Thats exactly it. If you think Ireland should be united, fair enough. It does not justify violence.

Surely you mean to say: thats exactly your opinion

insults and questions about your "Irishness" are flung about, like you have some god given right to measure other peoples patriotism

Ive tried not to insult anyone here.
No I wouldn't consider you a patriot but you could hardly consider yourself a patriot!

most certainly does not deserve to be called Irish.

Michael Collins, Dev, Robert Emmett, Sean Mac Diermada, Pearse ,James Connolly ................................etc all not Irishmen:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Whoa! thats a statement and a half. One which I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with

ColonelGadaffi

You can posts all day, it makes no difference. but the fact remains that Northern Ireland is another country which you havent accepted. All you have too offer is exporting terrorism and violance. No one in Ireland will ever accept this foreign country in, with all its troubles.

bonkey

Originally posted by David-[RLD]-
ah..

First of all, Belfast is part of Ireland, whether you like it or not.

The island of Ireland, yes. The Republic (or nation) of Ireland, no.

Ireland is composed of the Republic and the Six Counties.

The island of Ireland is, yes. Just like the landmass of America consists of the US, Canada, Mexico, Panama, etc. etc. etc.

Don't bother telling us otherwise because you'll just be wasting Boards' precious bandwidth to spread a blatant, ignorant lie.

If you are suggesting that someone here is lying, then you'd better be able to show that they know what they are saying is false - that they are intentionally trying to deceive.

Secondly, the only reason we removed claim from the Constitution was ...

The reason doesn't matter. The claim was removed, and hence is no longer applicable. Unless you believe the rule of law is meaningless.

As far as I can tell, the British government does not want the Six Counties.

And as far as anyone can tell, neither do the people of the Republic when taken as a democratic whole, which you seem to conveniently ignore.

And no matter how many times you mindlessly repeat your excuses for rejecting unity you cannot crush the Republican spirit.

No-one is seeking to crush anything. What they are saying is that violence is not an acceptable means to achieve your desired goal.

It's pathetic to even attempt to stop Republicans from wanting a United Ireland.

Who's tried? What they've said is that Republicans should not resort to violence to achieve a United Ireland.

As we're not going to stop campaigning until we get what we want.

Good for you. Just don't forget to respect the wishes of the democratic majorities while you continue to campaign for something that they do not want.

jc

Johnny_the_fox

most certainly does not deserve to be called Irish.

Michael Collins, Dev, Robert Emmett, Sean Mac Diermada, Pearse ,James Connolly ................................etc all not Irishmen:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Whoa! thats a statement and a half. One which I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with

and can i just add ... Michael Collins was part of Sinn Fein, elected in Armagh and was "a Terrorist".. :rolleyes:

monument

"Do you think Ireland should be United?"

I don't know, and I wont say yes or no to something which is not black and white.

BTW I like the very fair Catholic/Protestant choices :rolleyes:

And no matter how many times you mindlessly repeat your excuses for rejecting unity you cannot crush the Republican spirit.

The British failed, so i hardly think any of us here want to crush your republician spirit. Its just that we disagree with your belief.

It's pathetic to even attempt to stop Republicans from wanting a United Ireland.

So its pathetic to try stop them (not that we are trying), but its perfectly ok, for Republicians (not all, just the majority that have posted here) to disparage our belief that the North should not rejoin the South?

People have wanted Irish independence for 800 years so what makes you think they won't any time soon, especially with Sinn Féin's sky-rocketing popularity?

Irish Independence is a reality. Welcome to the Republic of Ireland.

A lot of people dont obviously care about the North and im willing to accept that, but if your of that mindset your pathetic and do not have the right to call yourself Irish.

Mark, you're willing to accept it, but our mindsets are still pathetic and we don't have the right to call us Irish? Hardly an acceptance of our stance. Just more bashing.

I just do understand how some Irish here give the impression that they would be more excited about a new playstation game or britney spears song than the history and future of our country.

Mickey, You see, i'm interested in the future of the Republic. I'm not too interested in groups of factions that wish to continue a war, that has lost any real meaning. As for our History, its history, i'm not going to allow other people's past actions to rule my life. I was raised with the stories of Collins, DeValera, Robert Emmett etc, and while i was young i was full of the passion of rightous anger as to what the British had done to Irish People. Then I grew up. I realised that living through history is a waste of time. The North and Republicians seem to have problems moving past history, and looking into the future. The problem with this, of course, is that the fighting goes on and on.

Pride of our history is one thing. Being ruled by it, is another.

No they're Irish. Would you have a problem being called a British subject? If you would then understand how insulting your remarks are.

No. They're British subjects. They're British subjects living on the island that is Ireland. As for my being called English, call me what you like, for you see I'm secure with my existance. I was born in the Republic, and will probably be buried here. But if you wish to call me English, go ahead. It doesn't bother me.

Why are you proud to be Irish?

because i'm proud of my ancestors who fought in the "War of Independence" and again in the "Civil War". I'm proud when i see the Republic achieve something, and i'm dashed when they fail.

how can you claim to be a proud Irish man and at the same time think the north should be left to the British. How can you see the Irish people of NI as different to you or I?

I see only one main difference between myself and the people of the North. Nationality. I see them as being British. Otherwise we're all humans. Some less so than others...

You dont believe that Ireland and become and is becoming increasingly Americanised?

Why do people believe that to be modern is to be americanised? I believe that Ireland is growing up. If anything, we're becoming more European, and since we're part of the EU, I see that as a good thing. However, before you jump in, I don't see how we have to give up our Irish Culture to become part of Europe. You see, a culture that doesn't change is dying. Thats what you want. A culture that stays looking into the past. I, on the otherhand, want the Republic to grow and evolve.

Tell me where I'm wrong.

I don't think you're wrong. I just think you have a different perception than i do. I respect that. I don't mind. Do you mind, that i don't conform to Republician Ideals?

Are you happy to be a person who has no concept of Irishness

Tell me something. (I'm beginning to lose my temper here a bit) What makes you the fountain of all things Irish. Who made you the sole judge as to what distinguishes a person as being part of a nation. You see, not once have i said that you're wrong. I've said what i believe, not what you should believe.

Vlad Drac

Ah well ... at least the people in the North of Ireland are more Irish than those in the Republic of Ireland. After all we have more kerbstones painted green white and gold, more tri colours flying all over the place, more people wearing celtic tops and other celtic related clothing per capita. St Patrick is burried here, we have nicer fields and scenary and the Guiness Pie was invented in the North! The Republic isn't really that Irish really

bizmark

Good stuff then you doesn’t need to join the republic for the foreseeable future

off ya go then

Vlad Drac

Exactly ...

David-[RLD]-

Originally posted by klaz
Irish Independence is a reality. Welcome to the Republic of Ireland.

Irish independence is the independence of the thirty-two counties of Ireland united under the one flag and controlled by the Irish people.

I would hardly call that achieved...

And YOU'RE beginning to lose your temper a bit? Have you ever been to the north? Have you ever lived there? Does your brain carry knowledge of what it is like which hasn't travelled through a medium such as the media? For an Irish person to turn their backs on the Irish people living in the north is pretty sad imo.. but then again you can live in your own little world if you want to, I suppose.

Oh and don't forget to add Kevin Barry to that list of people who aren't Irish. :dunno:

Then again, maybe violence was perfectly ok before the Anglo-Irish Treaty and the sudden appearance of the Republic makes violence a bad thing.

And think about this: most of the political parties that exist today were once part of Sinn Féin.

Johnny 5

Originally posted by jackal
You can keep our bitter cousins north of the border please. Im sure there are lots of nice people, but they seem to be vastly outnumbered by racist, bigoted, sectarian idiots, on both sides of the religious divide.

What makes the 26 counties so great then? That's right I forgot, the 'Republic' has no racists, or sectarian idiots. It has no corrupt government, it has no murderers, rapists and drug dealers.

What a utopia!

The 26 counties does not have a monopoly over the ideal of the 1916 proclamation. As far as I'm concerned, the south has failed on the republic invisaged by our forefathers.