A United Ireland

sceptre

Originally posted by Vlad Drac
The Republic isn't really that Irish really

Ah screw it so, you got us. Anyone for rejoining whatever country is currently ruling Northern Ireland?

On a serious note with a whiff of sociology, of course the North has more emphasis on Irishness than the part of the country that is ruled solely by Irish people. Most minority communities feel the need to emphasise the differences between themselves and the majority. Hence the larger emphasis on Irishness (including the greater dedication to the Irish language) that you find among the nationalist community in the north. The community in the south, not needing to psychologically emphasise their Irishness (having received a free ride for being born there) are by and large less inclined to emphasise things that uniquely identify them, as is the case in virtually all majority communities. This is also the reason why England retained les of its independent identity following the various Acts of Union - as the effective majority they didn't feel the need to emphasise themselves as a nation, whereas the Scots and Welsh (and even the Yorkshiremen) did. A Welsh guy being buried in Downpatrick is irrelevent to this psychological need as it's something that happened before the need arose but the rest of the reason for the emphasis stands.

Civilian_Target

Originally posted by Vlad Drac

When you say the souths crime rate does this mean all of the south or just Dublin? Because of its the whole of the south including all quite towns and villages etc compared to a city the crime rate is bound to be higher ... could maybe see your point if comparing both Belfast and Dublin.

Crime rate is measured in reported crime per thousand people. Belfasts crime rate is 109 per 1000 (1999 figures). The Republics crime rate is 27.9 per 1000 (1998 figures).

That type of behaviour is more to do with living in the student areas. Students get totally **** faced and fight ... it happens in most cities nowadays, more to do with the drinking culture. So where theres a large number of students, theres lots of drinking and bound to be fights. Also your mates where probably mugged from some spides from either the Village or something which is near Eglantine.

To be honest, I find that student areas are often the safest places to live. Generally, students don't go out on a Saturday night, which is when virtually all the attacks have happened, a friend was beaten unconcious around the corner by a gang of thugs looking for a fight. I know for a fact that North and West Belfast, as well as a lot of East Belfast are a LOT more violent than here.

Either way, I'm bowing out of this ridiculous trolling thread, and I hope your rotten statistics along with the bigoted opinions of Mac and David are stamped on by a moderator. It thanks members of the community such as yourselves that we have all this trouble in the North.

gurramok

After all we have more kerbstones painted green white and gold, more tri colours flying all over the place, more people wearing celtic tops and other celtic related clothing per capita. St Patrick is burried here, we have nicer fields and scenary and the Guiness Pie was invented in the North

Well there is no need for painting kebstones where i am as there are no 'british security force ' nor pro-loyalist presence where i am in dublin.
One exception was the last soccer world cup(yr?) which ireland qualified for, flags everywhere were flying for it.
I agree with you on the scenry thing though, lucky you

Vlad Drac

sceptre ... I wouldn't take my post very seriously, i was only joking. :P Sorry for making you feel any less Irish!

Johnny 5

quote:

---

After all we have more kerbstones painted green white and gold, more tri colours flying all over the place, more people wearing celtic tops and other celtic related clothing per capita. St Patrick is burried here, we have nicer fields and scenary and the Guiness Pie was invented in the North

---

Actually, I have never come across green, white and gold kerbstones .
and Ulster before the plantation was the most celtic of the provinces.

St.Patrick really never had anything to do with the rest of the island. Check his confessions.

bonkey

Originally posted by David-[RLD]-
Irish independence is the independence of the thirty-two counties of Ireland united under the one flag and controlled by the Irish people.

No, it isn't. That is only your interpretation of Irish independance. It is not one which is shared by everyone. But its ok - we've come to expect republicans to only consider their own point of view....

And YOU'RE beginning to lose your temper a bit? Have you ever been to the north? Have you ever lived there?

Well, I'm beginning to lose my temper a bit with teh arrogance of some of the statements coming from some the self-professed Republicans who've been posting here.

For the record, I have been to the North. My family used to live there until they were effectively kicked out for being successful Catholics in a Protestant area.

or an Irish person to turn their backs on the Irish people living in the north is pretty sad imo

Who's turning their back?

You're free to do what my family did and move to and live in the Republic, and I would never oppose that.

You're free to continue to agitate for a united island, and I would never oppose that as long as you do so peacefully.

But once you align yourself with terrorists and/or make any sort of justification for violence being used instead of democracy, then I will turn my back on you....not because I don't care about your perceived plight, but because I don't approve of the methods you use to follow it.

Then again, maybe violence was perfectly ok before the Anglo-Irish Treaty and the sudden appearance of the Republic makes violence a bad thing.

Well, I wouldn't have the arrogance to cast judgement on people living in a time that I didn't, but I would say that once a settlement was reached, there was no longer a justification for violence.

If you don't accept that, and wish to make a case for violence today because a small minority want to pursue that course of action instead of democracy, then consider that your logic would also justify the British using whatever violent means they feel like to achieve whatever they decided to should they decide that the settlement wasn't worth sticking to.

Your logic would equally mitigate the British re-invading and re-occupying the rest of the nation!!! But I'm guessing that its acceptable only for republicans to ignore agreements and use violence to pursue their goals, and not for anyone else????

And think about this: most of the political parties that exist today were once part of Sinn Féin.

Ues indeed they were, one way or another. And you know what the difference is? Every single one of them broke ties with violence and terrorism and instead started working democratically once a settlement had been reached. That and that alone is what makes them acceptable as political parties today.

jc

sceptre

Originally posted by Vlad Drac
Sorry for making you feel any less Irish!

Heh, I realised your post was tongue in cheek. The question of Irishness was going to come up some time though, hence the armchair amateur sociology bit tagged on.

I was in South Africa a few years ago and hanging about with another few students: a Scottish bloke, a guy from Norn Iron who was in the RIR and did some occasional, er, intelligence work for the RUC, a guy from south-east Ireland who was a staunch IRA supporter with some, ah, connections (he didn't know what the guy from the North did in his spare time) and a Welsh girl. Topic of a unified Celtic republic and where a capital might be came up. The Welsh girl reckoned that the intermediate home of the Celts (ie south Germany) should be included as well (she knew where I was going with this), I threw in the Basques as they're a little neglected even though there's no celtic connection whatever. All agreed that the capital should be in a central location. Got a map, linked all the furthermost Celtic points. Capital was projected to be at an optimal location of slightly west of London. I laughed for three days after.

David-[RLD]-

Every single one of them?

Republican Sinn Féin - CIRA
32 County Sovereignity Movement - RIRA
Irish Republican Socialist Party - INLA

Even I don't know if these 3 parties/councils are even linked with the said oganisations, same way as there's no solid proof that Sinn Féin are linked with the Provos, despite the fact that most people suspect it.

If I had aligned myself with terrorists I wouldn't be going to school or sitting in front of a computer all day. I'd be out buying polish for my rifle.

Believing that the IRA shouldn't be classed as terrorists is completely different to supporting them.

And YOU'RE beginning to lose your temper a bit? Have you ever been to the north? Have you ever lived there? Does your brain carry knowledge of what it is like which hasn't travelled through a medium such as the media? For an Irish person to turn their backs on the Irish people living in the north is pretty sad imo..

Lol. here we go. (I had a smoke and a scream out back, so i'm ready for more)

Yes i have been to the North on a number of occasions. I must admit that i didn't really enjoy my trips, but then that could have been cause they were business related.

As for the media comment, i get my knowledge from books (media), the media itself, and friends who have spent time in the North. Where are you getting your knowledge of the South from?

As for turning my back on Irish people, I'm Not. I have already stated that I count the people in the North as being British, not Irish.

but then again you can live in your own little world if you want to, I suppose.

Not really. You see i'm interested in living in the real, modern world. Not a dream made up by the republician dogma. I'd rather see my nation prosperous and at peace, rather than have it a warzone. But then thats just me.

Then again, maybe violence was perfectly ok before the Anglo-Irish Treaty and the sudden appearance of the Republic makes violence a bad thing.

Not really. You see we evolved into a nation. To do that you need to stop the amount of violence that you would see happen to the Republic, or do you really think that the combination of the North/South would cause peace? Hardly. Those Groups/Factions/Terrorists are too much in love with their Doctrines, and theres just too much bad blood. Sorry, but i prefer to keep Ireland free of organisations that consider themselves above all laws.

And think about this: most of the political parties that exist today were once part of Sinn Féin.

So? And perhaps the original Republicians were Bigots. Who cares? They left that history behind when they realised that the gun could not solve the problems facing a state. Perhaps republicians might consider the same one day.

What makes the 26 counties so great then? That's right I forgot, the 'Republic' has no racists, or sectarian idiots. It has no corrupt government, it has no murderers, rapists and drug dealers.

i can't recall anyone here saying that the Republic is a utopia or crime free. But what we do want to be free of is thugs with Guns. And all those groups in the North, regardless of their ultimate aims, are just bloody terrorists. you see, there are racists, Sexists, and sectarian idiots here. Its just that its very rare for them to consider turning their thoughts into Violence. The groups in North on the other hand.....

The 26 counties does not have a monopoly over the ideal of the 1916 proclamation. As far as I'm concerned, the south has failed on the republic invisaged by our forefathers.

Sure, thats your opinion. And you have the right to it. And believe me, if you want to break away from Britain and form your own nation, go ahead. I don't really care.

The Republic invisaged by our forefathers has changed by circumstances. Or did you really expect a minor nation like Ireland to take on a power like Britain and her allies. Its one thing to have a rebellion, its very different to attack another nation as a nation yourself. One second we'd have a Republic with 26 counties, and then we'd be part of the British Empire again. But then again realism has never been a strong point for republicians.

bonkey

Originally posted by David-[RLD]-
Believing that the IRA shouldn't be classed as terrorists is completely different to supporting them.

I'm really curious as to how you can consider the IRA to be anything but terrorists....and what you consider they should be classed as.

Actions, not ideals, determine whether you are a terrorist or not. It is not why you do something, it is what you do.

jc

ReefBreak

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Michael Collins, Dev, Robert Emmett, Sean Mac Diermada, Pearse ,James Connolly ................................etc all not Irishmen:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Sinn Féin debating technique #3: Use the atrocities of the past as a means of defending and condoning the atrocities of the present. I'm sure the relatives of those 9 people that were burned alive, screaming to death at La Mon or Enniskillen will be glad to know that the perpetrators were justified in their actions, because certain people had done it in the past.

We could use the same logic for any conflict: "it was done in the past, so we'll do now."

Nuttzz

looking at the ages of some of the posters here who argue so strongly one is 16 & one is 17. I remember what i was like at that age, all full of piss and vinegar about irish freedom, I was a real barstool republican in my teens, drinking, singing rebel songs reading republican news etc.

Over 15 years later I look back on those years with a rye smile. I didnt know sh1t about politics I just felt that the british army was an enemy army here to oppress the Irish.

However as I got older I was exposed to a number of BA "squaddies" who hated northern ireland and hated the "fenians", why? because they had to do a tour, they all wanted to get the f*** out of there and go to Germany or Cyprus.
Asking them did they hate me, they said they didnt
despite my "fenian" background, I could see why they were there and they understood my point of view.

With "old" age my views have mellowed, yours will too boys. So long as you treat each other up there as "green" or "black" ba$tards then no one will want you. I'll leave you with a quote from Platoon (made before you were born ) Ya smoke this **** so to escape from reality? Me, I don't need this ****. I am reality. There's the way it ought to be, and there's the way it is.

Johnny 5

Originally posted by klaz
i can't recall anyone here saying that the Republic is a utopia or crime free. But what we do want to be free of is thugs with Guns. And all those groups in the North, regardless of their ultimate aims, are just bloody terrorists. you see, there are racists, Sexists, and sectarian idiots here. Its just that its very rare for them to consider turning their thoughts into Violence. The groups in North on the other hand.....

Hmmm... racism has manifested itself in violence in parts of the south. Rapists are rampant and so are murderers, that's considered violence in my book.

Also, is it just me or is the majority of the Real IRA membership made up of southern members? Isn't the base of the Real IRA in Dundalk? Wasn't there countless numbers of arrests of PIRA members in the south during the troubles?

These paramilitary groups are by far not exclusive to the six counties.

Originally posted by klaz
The Republic invisaged by our forefathers has changed by circumstances. Or did you really expect a minor nation like Ireland to take on a power like Britain and her allies. Its one thing to have a rebellion, its very different to attack another nation as a nation yourself. One second we'd have a Republic with 26 counties, and then we'd be part of the British Empire again. But then again realism has never been a strong point for republicians.

No, you misinterpreted me, In the proclamation there is merely a paragraph invisaging how the republic should operate.

Taken from the 1916 Proclamation
The Irish republic is entitled to, and hereby claims, the allegiance of every Irishman and Irishwoman. The republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and of all its parts, cherishing all the children of the nation equally, and oblivious of the differences carefully fostered by an alien government, which have divided a minority from the majority in the past. [/b]

Realism is a strong point for republicanism.

bonkey

Originally posted by Johnny 5
Realism is a strong point for republicanism.

Really?

What is realistic about using terrorism - or violence of any means - in order to try and bring about the vision of the declaration? Especially when the violent means are effected by targetting one specific sub-group of people born on this island, despite your carefully-chosen passage stating clearly an aim of :

"cherishing all the children of the nation equally, and oblivious of the differences carefully fostered by an alien government"

Clearly the IRA and other violent (or violence-supporting) republicans do not cherish all of the children of the nation equally.

Realism? I think not. Idealism more like.

jc

Hmmm... racism has manifested itself in violence in parts of the south. Rapists are rampant and so are murderers, that's considered violence in my book.

Rampant? Perhaps on par with the rest of the world. <shrugs> Still the point i was making is that while Ireland is in no way close to being a Utopia, we don't have paramilitary groups running wild, with no consideration for their own people. You see, I don't want to live in a Nation that consists of those people. If i get jumped on the street in a mugging (which i have been), i know where i stand. However if some group comes to me, telling me how to live my life, and offering a bullet in the back of my kneecap if I refuse, I really don't want to live here anymore. I like peace. I like the concept that when i leave my home i'm not entering a warzone.

These paramilitary groups are by far not exclusive to the six counties

Oh i agree. Most Irish people are brought up on the tradegies of the past, which generates support for republician groups. I darsay the same happens in England for the loyalists. Some people grow up, and some don't. Anyone in the republic, helping the IRA, is guilty by association in my view. And should be dealt with in the same manner.

No, you misinterpreted me, In the proclamation there is merely a paragraph invisaging how the republic should operate.

Merely a paragraph? okies. But you pointed it out as a reference to your beliefs, and as a slap towards people who don't believe in an United Ireland. You see, i'm proud that Ireland got its freedom, and i'm proud of those that achieved it. On the other hand, they grew up once that freedom was achieved. Republicians throughout the last 50 years in both the North and the South haven't.

Realism is a strong point for republicanism.

You have got to be joking, right?

The methods your paramilitary groups use are based upon the whole guerilla warfare concept. Thing is, Guerilla warfare in itself cannot operate past a number of years. It just doesn't work. Its meant to be a method that either wins or fails within a short period of time. However, your paramilitary groups are still using these tactics for their "war". Five years, fine. Ten years, pushing it. After that, its a hopeless war, that borders on Terrorism. In the 70's your cause achieved the status of Terrorism. At least in my eyes. Other people have other opinions and are welcome to them.

Tell me something. If I mentioned my opinions from this post while in the North publicly, would I be perfectly safe in voicing those opinions? Would i get a friendly visit from the local paramilitary rep? This is a genuaine question, since as you pointed out, I have never lived in the North, and am curious as to how oppressed you are. (I'm not saying that local para's do this. I truely don't know how much free speech is tolerated in the North)

Mighty_Mouse

No sorry there Reefbreak, you suggested that those who had murdered in the name of Ireland were definitely not Irishmen(something similar).. To this I posted:

Michael Collins, Dev, Robert Emmett, Sean Mac Diermada, Pearse ,James Connolly ................................etc all not Irishmen

You replied:

Sinn Féin debating technique #3: Use the atrocities of the past as a means of defending and condoning the atrocities of the present

Where exactly did you pluck this from!!! I only put it to you that you were wrong on a point about Irishness!

How am I using atrocities....

I suggest you the one using "debating techniques" here.

jackal

Up to 60 dead, for what? lines on a map.
Violence is not the answer. These guys are f*cking animals, plain and simple. Same as the IRA.

pork99

Isn't this poll sectarian? I can't vote in it because I am neither Catholic nor Protestant - I believe all religions to be superstitious bullsh1t

ReefBreak

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
No sorry there Reefbreak, you suggested that those who had murdered in the name of Ireland were definitely not Irishmen(something similar).. To this I posted:

Where exactly did you pluck this from!!! I only put it to you that you were wrong on a point about Irishness!

How am I using atrocities....

I suggest you the one using "debating techniques" here.

If these men were responsible for terrorist atrocities such as what the IRA have done in the past (bombing pubs, burning people alive), I would have no hesitation is saying they didn't deserve to be Irish.

Sinn Féin's best friends in Spain have just committed one of the worst terrorist acts ever seen in Europe. Will Sinn Féin condemn it? Or will they use Sinn Féin soundbite # 23: "Although we regret the bombing in Spain, we have to remember the causes of this conflict, which is the Basque struggle against the Spanish, and only when the sitch-yee-ation arises where the Spanish...", blah fúcking blah blah blah.

IRA=ETA. Both of them are murderous savages.

Jaden

Originally posted by Vlad Drac
Ah well ... at least the people in the North of Ireland are more Irish than those in the Republic of Ireland. After all we have more kerbstones painted green white and gold, more tri colours flying all over the place, more people wearing celtic tops and other celtic related clothing per capita. St Patrick is burried here, we have nicer fields and scenary and the Guiness Pie was invented in the North! The Republic isn't really that Irish really

This sums it up really.

If you think that painting kerbstones Green, white and Gold makes you Irish, fair enough.

If you think pride in supporting a British Football team makes you Irish, fair enough.

If you think a French man being buried near you makes you Irish, fair enough.

If you think making food using Protestant beer makes you Irish, then fair enough.

But I hope you can understand the viewpoint that I don't think any of these things is in any way "Irish". Maybe our definitions vary. Herein may lie the problem.

bonkey

Originally posted by Jaden
If you think a French man being buried near you makes you Irish, fair enough.

I thought he was Welsh?

Same difference, though.

jc

David-[RLD]-

Originally posted by ReefBreak
If these men were responsible for terrorist atrocities such as what the IRA have done in the past (bombing pubs, burning people alive), I would have no hesitation is saying they didn't deserve to be Irish.

Sinn Féin's best friends in Spain have just committed one of the worst terrorist acts ever seen in Europe. Will Sinn Féin condemn it? Or will they use Sinn Féin soundbite # 23: "Although we regret the bombing in Spain, we have to remember the causes of this conflict, which is the Basque struggle against the Spanish, and only when the sitch-yee-ation arises where the Spanish...", blah fúcking blah blah blah.

IRA=ETA. Both of them are murderous savages.

buh?

http://www.sinnfein.ie/news/detail/3786

I can already predict your reply. "How can he condemn it when they are the exact same as the IRA.." blah f**king blah. If you want to rant about Adams being an (ex-)IRA member, use the thread that was created to discuss the said issue, because I am 99.9% certain you will use that as an argument.
Never happy, are you?

jackal

Your quote above is meaningless, Adams would say the same if it was a RA bomb.

David, a few simple questions about your beliefs.

1. do you beleive in using violence to achieve the dream of a united ireland, in the current context (i.e. after a few years of relative peace up north)?
2. would you agree that the peace is better than the troubles? Or that uniting ireland is more important than peoples lives?

monument

Originally posted by bonkey
I'm really curious as to how you can consider the IRA to be anything but terrorists....

Probably for a different reason then the person you asked, but this is why I don't...

"Why don't you describe terrorists as terrorists?

As part of a long-standing policy to avoid the use of emotive words, we do not use terms like 'terrorist' and 'freedom fighter' unless they are in a direct quote or are otherwise attributable to a third party. We do not characterize the subjects of news stories but instead report their actions, identity and background so that readers can make their own decisions based on the facts. " (http://about.reuters.com/aboutus/editorial/)

Sand

It looks to me like Catholics north and south of the border have a lot in common in resisting the nationalist/republican stereotype - neither demographic want a united Ireland.

Apart from that we dont have a whole lot in common.

David-[RLD]-

Originally posted by jackal
Your quote above is meaningless, Adams would say the same if it was a RA bomb.

David, a few simple questions about your beliefs.

1. do you beleive in using violence to achieve the dream of a united ireland, in the current context (i.e. after a few years of relative peace up north)?
2. would you agree that the peace is better than the troubles? Or that uniting ireland is more important than peoples lives?

1 - Relative peace? If you mean the governments thinking everything is all dandy just because Bertie and Blair are friends.. that is not peace. There's still a lot of violence.
2 - Peace is better than the troubles. A United Ireland is inevitable so I don't really see much use for killing people nowadays.

jackal,
1 - Do you know Gerry Adams?
2 - Have you ever met Gerry Adams?
3 - Do you know anyone who knows Gerry Adams personally?

I'll assume for now that the answer to all three of those questions is 'no'.
And of course he'd say the same if it were an IRA bomb; I would too.

Sand, religion has nothing to do with it. The clause in the GFA stating that a referendum will only be held once there is a Catholic majority in the north is sectarian. As is this poll.

bonkey

Originally posted by David-[RLD]-
Sand, religion has nothing to do with it. The clause in the GFA stating that a referendum will only be held once there is a Catholic majority in the north is sectarian. As is this poll.

It doesn't matter whether you want to decry the GFA as sectarian or not. THe GFA explicitly makes religion an issue within the framework which currently exists.

Whether you think religion should have anything to do with it or not is entirely your perogative, but to insist that it doesn't have anything to do with it is unrealistic - something which you insist republicanism isn't, funnily enough.

jc

pdh

With all the **** going on up in Dublin Castle, how about a 32 County Ulster. Then maybe we might get some honest government...........

David-[RLD]-

Originally posted by bonkey
It doesn't matter whether you want to decry the GFA as sectarian or not. THe GFA explicitly makes religion an issue within the framework which currently exists.

Whether you think religion should have anything to do with it or not is entirely your perogative, but to insist that it doesn't have anything to do with it is unrealistic - something which you insist republicanism isn't, funnily enough.

jc

So what you're saying is that if you're not legally registered as a Catholic or a Protestant you can't decide the fate of your country?
That's it, down with Fianna Fáil! I smell the worst form of sectarian discrimination being perpetrated by the Irish and British governments.

David-[RLD]-

And yes, me insisting that Republicanism is realistic is so hilarious. I'm telling you, my lungs are about to burst with all this laughter. You're so right! It's so funny! Oh dear there goes my diaphragm... and my sarcasm detector.