A United Ireland

daveirl

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daveirl

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Villain

Originally posted by daveirl
We never never an independent unified state. The only time the island was treated as a whole was as part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

So basically what you're saying is that there is no reason other than 'cos it should' for their to be a United Ireland. Meanwhile I can give you loads of good socio-economic reasons as why we shouldn't undergo unification. And you think you'd walk the referendum?

IMHO YES I do think it would pass a referendum, go back a bit further before we were under British rule, might be a long time ago but we were 1 Island an 1 Country, might have been run by Vikings even, but the country wasnn't devided.

I never said that it was in the best socio-economic interests of the country but I think we should be united as 1 country.

Your entitled to your opinion and I'm sure theres many who will support it however I think a lot will want a United Ireland, and I think Pro unification would be more likely to turn out on polling day than those who don't want it.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

David-[RLD]-

Originally posted by daveirl
If divided is thousands of local warlords constantly fighting then fair enough, you might have a point, but that wouldnt' be United in the truest sense.

mmhmm even though almost EVERY civilisation was like that a millennium ago. :rolleyes:

thesecret7

Im sick of nordies... I couldnt stomach the tought of having 1,5 MILLION of them in my beloved country. Its a nightmare, a disaster. I resent the good friday agreement and all this co operation. I resent the time and energy of our Ministers and President being wasted on these people (who are scottish genetically not Irish). I honestly belive that everyone from Ireland (i.e the republic not that other country that shares the same island) are only saying yes as lip service to keep the nationalists up north happy.

Imagine having all those problems in our country, all the drug problems,violance and negativity. They cant play gaelic properly, let alone hurley, they have a crap soccer team, the ulster protestant belive that they are superior than anyone else on this island, why would we sop to that scum.

All that needs to happen is for Sinn Fein to decommision its weapons and return to government and join the policing board. The loyalist have to follow suite. Thats it, anything else is a sham. A 32 county republic would be a mess, it would put the country back to looking something like Romania. We cant afford to have 1.5 millions loosers on the dole.

And people outside the republic have NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to have an Irish passport.

Johnny_the_fox

Originally posted by thesecret7
And people outside the republic have NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to have an Irish passport.

then your current President has no right be to President... she was born and educated in the North :rolleyes:

Vlad Drac

Some real ignorant people on these boards ...

Sand

Are you basing that on this poll? If so, you might want to factor in that an internet poll like this is not even up to the standered of an newspaper poll.

Even if the poll results are a close representation general opinion it’s worth noting that the results are very close.

At the time of posting this the over all was 41 yes votes to 42 no votes.

Ah but given the catholic nationalist stereotype ( remember the dreams of a United Ireland are founded on the rising catholic population in NI with the inherent assumption theyll all vote nationalist ) *all* the catholics or at least the vast vast majority of them should be voting for a United Ireland. Thats not happening. Hence the stereotype is not being adhered to.

Still waiting on that answer...

But whilst your figuring it out, let me list what we do have in common... (off the top of my head now, if anyone wants to add go ahead)




We play the same sports (GAA etc.)

We share the same religion

We listen/play the same traditional music

We share the same heritage

Our cultures and lifestyles are identical

We speak the same languages (Gaeilge is infact stronger in the North)

We are of the same race (Celtic)

People in the north have the same nationality as southerners

We're on the same island!

Catholic schools in the North, teach nearly identical cirriculums as those in the south.



Only thing I can think off that we don't have in common would be our accents, but then again, all the border counties (Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal) speak exactly like we do...

Weve the same religion?!? Holy Jebus. Unfortunately I and many other Irish people do not define ourselves by religion. We dont have Catholic areas and Protestant areas where its safe to wear a Celtic top and where its expected to wear a Rangers top. We dont use our religion as an indicator of voting patterns ( see dreams of a united ireland above ).

Traditional music? You mean that stuff my dad listens to? Alright.

We dont share the same heritage. The north has had 30-40 years of terrorism and brutality topped up with sectarian politics. Weve been lucky enough to escape that. We dont want it either.

Cultures and lifestyles are remarkably different Id have thought. Politics is a good deal less bitter here for one thing. Hell if anything our lifestyle and culture is closer to that of the UK and the US. Wasnt it you sneering at the southern culture and its values for not being nationalist enough a while back?

Im glad Gaeilge is stronger in the north - its non existent in the south. As for English, again it just reinforces how close we are to the UK and US culturally.

Celtic hasnt been a race since about the Dark Ages.

Youre allowed to claim youre Irish, to keep you happy - It keeps the Boston Irish and Irish Americans in general happy too and doesnt do any harm for anyone. I am a citizen of the Irish Republic. Theres a difference there.

Were on the same Island? So what? America and Canada are on the same continent - I guess they should be united too?

Catholic schools are defined by their cirriculumn are they? Our is their cirriculumn defined by the particular ethnic group in the majority there? Its that same old sectarianism and defintion by religion with the attendant ****e we dont want.

Oh but i cant disagree with the fact we all play GAA. We all play soccer and Rugby too - should we be ringing Westminster to arrange our reentry to the united kingdom?

And if you want to see how catholics north and south of the border differ take a look at the arguments you and a few others have been having over the possibility of a united ireland with all the accusations of the South being motivated purely by self interest. Damn right we are. Catholics north of the border are also motivated by self interest. The few whove voted agree a united ireland would be a disaster.

Your entitled to your opinion and I'm sure theres many who will support it however I think a lot will want a United Ireland, and I think Pro unification would be more likely to turn out on polling day than those who don't want it.

Doubtful - I think the north will reject a united Ireland and I think the south would as well, though it might be closer as theres no idealogical faction who has the balls to come right out against a united ireland. Seeing as both would need to pass it for it to go the people against a united ireland would have two chances to save the republic from that mess.

thesecret7

well its widely accepted that she was a crap version of President Robison and not as good. Yet another mistake in Irish politics to have a nordie representing us abroad, I dont care what nordies try to say, I dont want any of them in full stop.

bonkey

Originally posted by Vlad Drac
Some real ignorant people on these boards ...

Banned.

jc

bonkey

Originally posted by Sand
all the accusations of the South being motivated purely by self interest.

Because, as we all know, the Republicans in the North aren't, in that they don't actually want to be part of the Republic for themselves. No...they want it for the benefit of the Unionists, and for our benefit down here.

Right?



jc

p.s. In case anyone is missing this momentous occasion - I'm actually agreeing with Sand for a change.

bizmark

I wouldn’t want the north to join the republic at the mo

But we cant turn our backs on them either like thesecret7 seems to want us to their on the same island as us and shares some common cultural backgrounds ......England and Ireland should help them stabilize their country so they become a useful member of either the uk or at some future date the republic perhaps even there own country

But right now and for the foreseeable future it would be madness to let the north join the republic or leave the Uk tbh

monument

Originally posted by thesecret7
Imagine having all those problems in our country, all the drug problems,violance and negativity.

Troll post of the year!

Originally posted by thesecret7
They cant play gaelic properly, let alone hurley, they have a crap soccer team, the ulster protestant belive that they are superior than anyone else on this island, why would we sop to that scum.

"They cant play gaelic properly"... "that they are superior"... hmm... interesting.

Originally posted by thesecret7
And people outside the republic have NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to have an Irish passport.

Right, I'll tell all of the Irish people I know living the UK and US to hand them over. :rolleyes:

gandalf

Originally posted by thesecret7
Im sick of nordies... I couldnt stomach the tought of having 1,5 MILLION of them in my beloved country. Its a nightmare, a disaster. I resent the good friday agreement and all this co operation. I resent the time and energy of our Ministers and President being wasted on these people (who are scottish genetically not Irish). I honestly belive that everyone from Ireland (i.e the republic not that other country that shares the same island) are only saying yes as lip service to keep the nationalists up north happy.

Imagine having all those problems in our country, all the drug problems,violance and negativity. They cant play gaelic properly, let alone hurley, they have a crap soccer team, the ulster protestant belive that they are superior than anyone else on this island, why would we sop to that scum.

All that needs to happen is for Sinn Fein to decommision its weapons and return to government and join the policing board. The loyalist have to follow suite. Thats it, anything else is a sham. A 32 county republic would be a mess, it would put the country back to looking something like Romania. We cant afford to have 1.5 millions loosers on the dole.

And people outside the republic have NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to have an Irish passport.

Well that has to be one of the most bigoted and borderline racist posts on Politics in a long time.

If I see a post like that again from you I will ban you from this board. If you have a problem with this then please take it up with the admins.

Gandalf.

David-[RLD]-

Originally posted by Johnny_the_fox
then your current President has no right be to President... she was born and educated in the North :rolleyes:

the President is the President of the whole of Ireland, not the President of the Republic of Ireland.
ask her yourself if you don't believe me

thesecret7

(retract my previous post)

but I have the right to my own opinion and im going to say it, i just see the northern Ireland as a mess and full of problems. Our ministers have wasted a lot of time there. I dont want the Irish government to hand out passports to anyone that wants one and I dont think the current president was as good as the previous one!

A united Ireland cant be the solution, what is needed is stability. Sinn Fein has to decomission its weapons and the loyalists have to follow suit. Most nordies dont want a 32 county republic.

gandalf

The thing is this I do actually agree with you that at the moment a united ireland is not feasible and therefore not a solution at all. Sinn Fein need to persuade their "friends" in IRA to decommission fully and to disband fully in order for this peace process to move forward in any way (and yes the loyalists obviously have to do the same). Our government have wasted too much resources and time on Northern Ireland when they should have been sorting this side of the country out.

As regards passports I personally have no problems with people from NI holding an ig Irish passport I really don't see the big deal in that as we are all members of the EU anyway.

The basic fact is this. The people of NI can continue on using the UK Government and the Irish Government as crutchs to come in and try and help them sort their problems out or they can take the bull by the horn compromise and work thru their problems themselves. I think its time for them demand their leaders leave the dark ages of the troubles behind them totally and get on with making NI a better place to live and work no matter what religion or creed you are.

Gandalf.

Originally posted by David-[RLD]-
the President is the President of the whole of Ireland, not the President of the Republic of Ireland.
ask her yourself if you don't believe me

I'm a little tired at this stage, but could some one clarify what we did by constitutional change with regards to NI when we passed the GFA in the 26 counties?

Is our President legally and constitutionally president of Northern Ireland aswell??

Mighty_Mouse

I think its fair to say that most NI nationalists would consider themselves Irish before Northern Irish or UK citizen etc.

The economic arguments for not joining the Island dont really hold water long-term. Its just scare-mongering on behalf of anti-union people. There are numerous economic arguments which would point towards a union of the Island. (its why there are an increasing number of "cross-border" boards being set up, in tourism etc )

Cultural differences... apart from many of the yuppies in Dublin, I would like to thing that the republic and NI nationalists are much the same.

Afraid of "messiness" and hard work is no reason why the Island shouldn't be united. But I do accept that the union can't take place (on a practical level) until the unionist population feel that their rights culturally, politically, etc etc wil be respected in a united Ireland.

For example the rights of unionists representatives to sit in both Dublin and London. vote in both countries elections, march and celebrate orangism (in a non-sectarian manner, as much as poss) etc etc

Sinn Fein need to persuade their "friends" in IRA to decommission fully and to disband fully in order for this peace process to move forward in any way (and yes the loyalists obviously have to do the same)

SF have persuaded the IRA to decommission. When can full decommissioning be verified? Fully disband ? - wont happen until republicans start to see some of the agreements they signed up to being implemented.

Peace process move forward - not sure how much the ball is in SF court any longer

Its seems that loyalist decommissioning is an after-thought by you Gandalf and not the priority that getting the IRA to decommission and disband is.

The basic fact is this. The people of NI can continue on using the UK Government and the Irish Government as crutchs to come in and try and help them sort their problems out or they can take the bull by the horn compromise and work thru their problems themselves. I think its time for them demand their leaders leave the dark ages of the troubles behind them totally and get on with making NI a better place to live and work no matter what religion or creed you are.

This is a little bit "pie in the sky" comment IMO.
The fact of the matter is that people in NI dont get along and therefore the creating a sustainable democracy will take a lot of outside support.

I mean the argument "why dont people just roll up their sleaves, take the bull by the horns ....." just wont work.

Of coarse both communities have done a lot of work in the last 10 years but there is a long way to go. The GFA encompasses both the British and Irish gov and therfore there is an onus on those governments to implement the agreement in full.... which they havent done... Also the current impass is a result of the brits collapsing the gov...

I dont want the Irish government to hand out passports to anyone that wants one and I dont think the current president was as good as the previous one!

Thesecret - you have to be trolling!:rolleyes:

The vast majority of catholics in northern Ireland are nationalists and want to see a united Ireland. Comparing NI to canada v america is silly
saying that NI irish should get Irish passport is silly etc

Basically argueing that NI has no right to be part of southern ireland is foolish also. You can argue the reasons you might not want it ..................but the other argument is just wrong.

Nuttzz

They cant even enjoy paddys day in peace, we really dont need the north do we?


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/3522434.stm

Disturbances following a St Patrick's Day concert in Belfast city centre have been condemned.
A police officer was injured at the Castlecourt Shopping Centre, and officers separated two crowds after a standoff in the Lower Shankill area on Wednesday.

Three people were arrested following the city centre incident.

Earlier in the day, thousands of people attended a free open air concert at Belfast City Hall.

West Belfast DUP assembly member Diane Dodds said gangs coming from the concert launched unprovoked, sectarian attacks in her constituency.

"I can only say that if this is a reflection of the spirit of the people who attended the rally at the city hall, then this would not be a warm and welcoming place for people from my community," she said.

You cannot blame St Patrick's Carnival Committee for something that happened two hours after the concert and nowhere near our venue

Irene Sherry
St Patrick's Carnival Committee


"Neither do I feel that it would be a true reflection of the spirit of St Patrick."

However, Irene Sherry from the St Patrick's Carnival Committee condemned the incidents but said the trouble was minor and had nothing to do with the celebrations.

"You cannot blame St Patrick's Carnival Committee for something that happened two hours after the concert and nowhere near our venue," she said.

"Obviously there are people who never wanted the event to take place in the first place and have continually from yesterday afternoon tried to destroy the goodness that happened yesterday in Belfast city centre."

Meanwhile, the discovery of the bomb in south Belfast led to one music event being cancelled as a pub and several houses were evacuated.

Army bomb experts carried out two controlled explosions on the device found near University Street.

Francie Mackin, owner of the Menagerie Bar, said former Pogues singer Shane MacGowan had been due to perform at the venue.

"We have been preparing ourselves for the last couple of months to provide good entertainment for people, with top names and top DJs," he said.

"For this to happen is really a blow to St Patrick's Day."

Mighty_Mouse

Who's they?

May I reming you of the May Day celebrations a couple of years ago before you rush to judge "nordies"

ReefBreak

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Who's they?

May I reming you of the May Day celebrations a couple of years ago before you rush to judge "nordies"

There's a big difference between a bunch of well-to-do crusty students rioting on O'Connell St during their Che Guevera-T-Shirt-wearing phase than what goes on up in Norn Iron.

monument

Originally posted by ReefBreak
There's a big difference between a bunch of well-to-do crusty students rioting on O'Connell St during their Che Guevera-T-Shirt-wearing phase than what goes on up in Norn Iron.

And I was full sure it was the police who were doing the rioting.

thesecret7

Thesecret - you have to be trolling!

The vast majority of catholics in northern Ireland are nationalists and want to see a united Ireland. Comparing NI to canada v america is silly
saying that NI irish should get Irish passport is silly etc

if you think im a troll dont reply, but im entititled to have my own opinions. I dont want to start a flame off but this is my have cents worth. Do we really want this crowd in? I cant accept that people outside the 26 counties should be allowed Irish passports at the drop of a hat. How are they irish?

Sinn fein have been given the best part of a decade to decomssion (and it is the SinnFein cos every1 knows der the same crew) and it still invovled in drugs, racketerring , fuel , cigarettes etc.

"The good people of Northern Ireland" will never want to join. Thank god because its "our destiny" to let them in whenever they wish. How did we end up with this crap arrangement? It sounds like we really want the place but we dont deserve it. What have they got to add to our society, more problems thats what.

I know that the vast majority of Catholics in the north are happy where they are because they share more culturally and ethnically with the Ulster Protestant. Once the terrorisms stops in the north everyone will be happy.

There is a whole economic arguement (which the south is going to loose out on) but i wont go into that.

What the Irish government has to do is make sure that the provos decomission, make peace with the loyalist with more turf pitches etc and thats it.

There is absolutly nothing for the republic to gain by waisting TD's time up north. How much energy does it take to bring peace there? The US UK and IRish governments have alll broke their backs and there is still no peace.

David-[RLD]-

Originally posted by Earthman
I'm a little tired at this stage, but could some one clarify what we did by constitutional change with regards to NI when we passed the GFA in the 26 counties?

Is our President legally and constitutionally president of Northern Ireland aswell??

Yes, she is. Anyone who says differently is lying or basing their arguments on false information.

Moriarty

Originally posted by David-[RLD]-
Yes, she is. Anyone who says differently is lying or basing their arguments on false information.

Why do I suddenly get the overwhelming feeling that you're not telling the truth?

Moriarty

I've had a poke around and found a copy of the constitution here. The president appears to be president soley of the state (the Irish Republic, aka the 26 counties).

Article 12

1. There shall be a President of Ireland (Uachtarán na hÉireann), hereinafter called the President, who shall take precedence over all other persons in the State and who shall exercise and perform the powers and functions conferred on the President by this Constitution and by law.

David appears to just be trolling for the fun of it.

pigeonbutler

I don't think he's trolling. He has a point. The generally accepted legal interpretation of the constitution is that the President is the president of the "Nation of Ireland", ie. the 32-counties. However the "State" of the Republic of Ireland ie. the 26-counties is also commonly referred to in the constitution and strangely:

Article 12
9. The President shall not leave the State during his term of office save with the consent of the Government.

Hence the president needs the permission of the government to visit Northern Ireland. (It's a rubber stamp thing at this stage though.)

Tazz T

Originally posted by thesecret7
Im sick of nordies... I couldnt stomach the tought of having 1,5 MILLION of them in my beloved country. Its a nightmare, a disaster. I resent the good friday agreement and all this co operation. I resent the time and energy of our Ministers and President being wasted on these people (who are scottish genetically not Irish). I honestly belive that everyone from Ireland (i.e the republic not that other country that shares the same island) are only saying yes as lip service to keep the nationalists up north happy.

Imagine having all those problems in our country, all the drug problems,violance and negativity. They cant play gaelic properly, let alone hurley, they have a crap soccer team, the ulster protestant belive that they are superior than anyone else on this island, why would we sop to that scum.

All that needs to happen is for Sinn Fein to decommision its weapons and return to government and join the policing board. The loyalist have to follow suite. Thats it, anything else is a sham. A 32 county republic would be a mess, it would put the country back to looking something like Romania. We cant afford to have 1.5 millions loosers on the dole.

And people outside the republic have NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to have an Irish passport. [/QUOTE

And I don't like having people like you in my country.