Bringing Irish back into the public domain

flogen

Firstly, to my shame, I am not a fluent speaker of irish, I couldnt stand it in school, but I do hope to learn it in my own time over the coming years.
Anyway, the fact that I plan on learning it got me thinking as to why i found it so difficult to pick it up when it was being taught to me, and I came to the following conclusions.
Firstly Irish as a compulsary language is failing.... but the fact that you HAVE to learn it isnt the main problem, its the way in which it is taught. Irish was taught to me like maths, phrases and speils were handed out, we memorised them and spouted them back. We didnt really learn the language as a language (infact, I speak better German after 5 years learning than Irish after a life times work). This should change if young people are expected to enjoy and learn their native tounge.

Another problem, one which needs the most work, is accesibility. An interesting report in the Sunday Indo(i think) proved just how useless Irish is in a city such as Dublin. a young girl spent what was supposed to be a day going around the place speaking only in Irish. She was forced to give up after an hour. The truth is It would be of more use to me to know Chinese or French in Dublin city than Irish.
NOw i know myself, and many others will agree, that I do not push myself to learn something that I will never find a use for. Its the Irish/human way i guess (a generalisation, yes, but true in many cases.... few people Irish people learn Latin because they dont think it will be of any use).
Tackling this issue is in the hands of the Irish Gov, whom for decades now have been responsible (IMO) for a language apathy.
Something I thought about today could BEGIN to change things... I propose that, for example, all retail companies that own more than X amount of buildings or acres of land must dual label all items in Irish and English (in same font/text size etc). I was thinking that producers should be forced to have Irish instructions/information on all packaging, but this is probably out of the Irish Gov hand, and would be something worth considering in many years perhaps. Also, road signs should be re-arranged so that Irish is the more prominent and English is the smaller text. Signs such as stop should be translated (a very simple idea, but a small change could be more effective than you might think). Also ALL road signs should bear Irish text, as there are many now that dont.
Employers should be encouraged to employ bi-lingual staff (perhaps a tax break for every member of staff that can pass a basic Irish test). And Staff themselves should be encouraged to learn Irish by again encouraging tax deductions or grants etc.

I think that, if a Government actually set out a plan to push the language, it would help alot. If I knew that when I went to tesco I could enquire about items in Irish, it might make me more willing to learn. If i knew i could get a tax cut on my wages, it would encourage me....
Other things could be done in places, like cinemas, maybe not something as extreme as Irish subtitles for every movie, but maybe more modern cinemas (UGC etc) could install headphone translatons or something..... who knows....?? There is so much that could be done, but sadly the Government of the years have made the language a second or third level priority... if anything...

Some of my suggestions may be unrealistic, and most wouldnt effect you or I, but maybe our children or their children, but if we dont act now, then the longer things go as they are the harder it will be to make Ireland fluent in its own language..
what would you like to see happen to push the Irish language to the people??

Flogen
oh, and wish me luck with the learning!!

David-[RLD]-

you, sir, are many of the few genii* who actually care about our language.

fair play. i 100% agree with you.

and good luck with the learning.

*plural of genius. just learnt it today *head swells*

Suaimhneach

An t-adh leat! Good luck!

Well Adam my friend, I am inclined to agree with you on everything you said. I think it would be very difficult to make these things happen, and most people will see them as too idealistic, but if the government were on our side then perhaps some of these things might materialise.

Lets hope so. I plan to bring my kids up speaking irish, and help as many people as I can to spread the language.

flogen

cheers all!
My girlfriends brother is going to a Nainora (sp??) and I think I'd do the same with my kids, its so wierd to see how much he has learned so quickly, but superb all the same, hopefully he and I can have a good natter as Gaeilge soon enough!

Flogen

uch

I do think the Tax break for Irish speakers or for employing Irish speakers could be a runner, and certainly encouraging for all party's

Walter Ego

In Galway the ATMs (BOI) are bilingual English/Gailge. Since the software already exists I'm sure it would cost very little to extend this language choice to all ATMs around the country. Surely this would be a small step forward for the language. Contact you bank and ask for it to be done.

dudara

On UCC campus all ATMS give the option of english or irish.

I'm a native speaker, and I agree with so many of flogens points. Most of my friends give out about the way Irish was taught in school and I have to agree with them. Even for me, it was fairly painful. Grammar in national school was particularly horrible. What do you care about the Aimsir Caite and the Módh Conniollach when you're 10.

Forget grammar and rigour until secondary school. National school Irish should be conversational. None of us want to see our national language go down the drain, but there is huge resentment out there about the way it was taught.

It should stay compulsory in school, but there needs to be huge revision in teaching methods.

David-[RLD]-

Originally posted by dudara
None of us want to see our national language go down the drain

Unfortunately that's where you're wrong. My school (Coolmine Community School) in Dublin is extremely pro-Gaeilge. Everything is in Irish. Today we had a café held in the canteen where you could only speak Irish. Brilliant idea imo.
Despite this, outside the canteen I heard a science teacher telling some students (who are part of the minority of our school who love the language) to not bother with it as it's, and I quote, "dead as Latin".

What kind of inspiration is this? She might have been joking but to say that at all is just an insult.

There's hundreds of thousands of people in the country who hate Irish and hope it dies out.

:mad:

flogen

I think that comments like these are just plain ignorant, but although some people do hate the language, alot of it is laziness...
as far as theyre concerned, why should they learn something they have no use for... and to some degree it makes sense, which is why I think the Gov should start to bring it out of the Gealtacht areas and into the big cities etc through my above ideas among many others.
Im sure that most people are just too lazy to learn it, but dont want to see it die out or hate it.
Perhaps this teacher is ashamed of the fact that they cant speak Irish and so excuses it by claiming its a useless piece of knowledge to have,

Flogen

Gleanndún

personaly i think that its the english that should die out in ireland. if there were only some way to make the goverment care, because you'd be suprised how much power the goverment has. the idea of bilingual labels is childsplay there, do u kno how much trouble u get in in canada for sumthin in only french or only english? even the most trivial things absolutely MUST be bilingual. if u want a real picture of government in action, take a look at france. newscasters have been fired istantaneously for use of the word "email". the government has the power, they could instantly change everything to irish only, the laws &c, and as always ignorance of the law is no excuse. since a large part of the problem is acute lethargy, i doubt that any1 will stage a revolution for being forced 2 learn their own language. any ideas? i cant vote, bc im not a citizen of ireland, otherwise id b writing letters at this moment. i leave it 2 u all, éire go brach!

Gleanndún

p.s. latin never died, it just evolved in2 all of the romance langs; romanian even retains the case system!:p

uch

Originally posted by flogen

Perhaps this teacher is ashamed of the fact that they cant speak Irish and so excuses it by claiming its a useless piece of knowledge to have,

Flogen

I think Flogen is bang on here, most people who claim to hate or think it's a useless language most likely are ashamed to admit that they know very little of it or are too lazy to try bother trying, or are simply too perfect to make a mistakeand possibly be corrected ( God Forbid ). I know there will be some exceptions but in general I think Flogen has hit the nail on the head.

An Fear Aniar

Stop hoping that all it takes is for the Government to do something and Irish will be revived.

That's just passing the buck like we've always done since 1922. Beatha teangan í a labhairt.

David-[RLD]-

You're right, we need a REAL government, not just a band of corrupt Fianna Fáil "republicans".

Sinn Féin would do nicely imo... or any other party who would be able to revive Gaeilge. Where's a benevolent dictatorship when you need one?

Seraphina

Originally posted by flogen
If I knew that when I went to tesco I could enquire about items in Irish, it might make me more willing to learn.

you can enquire to me!
/me dons blue tesco shirt and does superman pose

An Fear Aniar

Um, I detect sarcasm, but you can't always be sure on the net.

What I was trying to say is that language change doesn't happen top down, it always happens at the person to person level, any government would be powerless to impose a language on a people.

All this crap about status and saying the government is doing nothing is just missing the point completely.

dlofnep

I applaud this thread. I am not a fluent Irish speaker but I would love to be. Whenever I get a chance, I'm going to look for a course to progress my language fluency.

I remember being in a bar a couple of months back and two girls were speaking fluent Irish; I was amazed by this and I bought them both a drink out of respect. I think that Irish in school should be given more time and the learning curve re-structured.

It sickens me to see the language die and even worse when I see fellow Irish people not bother about it. I don't have alot of principles, but culture is something that should be preserved and not forgotten. Anybody who believes that Irish is an obsolete language is ignorant to the ways of their culture.

alleepally

Just caught up on this thread today and want to say that I agree with the original post by flogen. I went to Galway a few weeks back and stayed in Spiddal. I love the west and it was the first time in about 20 years I'd take a break there.

I say any anti-Irish speaker should spend some time in the West and just listen to how beautiful it is to see old and young alike speak the native tongue. That's the real Ireland if you ask me . I resolved when I came home that I would listen to, watch, or read something in Irish for at least an hour every day.

I now do that and whilst my Irish is still not great I want to change that because someday I want to go back out west and feel confident to talk to others, I want to be able to watch the Nuacht fully and understand it all, I want to be able to go to a foreign country and talk to another Irish speaker knowing no-one will understand us, I want to see my kids out playing and talking in Irish, I want to succeed despite the education I got and the lack of leadership our government shows to cherish our ancient tongue.

This is my aim for 2004 and I will not fail.

flogen

An Fear Aniar, I am not trying to pass the buck and say its up to the government, also, I am not suggesting that anything is imposed on the Irish people.
You cannot say that for years Irish government after Irish government has failed to significantly improve access to Irish.
Im not sure were your from, but I live in Dublin, and if and when I learn Irish, it will be very difficult for me to put it to use. I will try, but I know for certain that it will be a 1 in 100 (or more) chance that I get to speak in Irish to a sales rep, or read product info in irish, or something like that.
Due to government apathy there is no reason for people to learn Irish outside of the Gaeltacht areas. I know that doing my above suggestions wont guarentee Irish will survive, but it sure as hell will help.

Another point I would like to make is this. I am ashamed that i dont speak Irish, as are many people from this country, but in places like Dublin it doesnt really matter. there is no daily reminder to me that I cant speak my native tounge (well, theres TG4 etc, but you can turn them off). If someone who was interested in Irish but was lazy in approach to it was faced with Irish text and so on every day, they may feel more compelled to learn (i know its like guilting people into it, but its not really, its jsut reminding them of a problem they feel they have that they can fix if they just try). TBH, i dont think Id have the current drive I have to learn Irish if it wasnt for my Girlfriends little brother (who is 4) who is picking up Irish quite quickly... the thought that he may start talking to me in Irish soon enough and I will be lost is abit embaressing and made me realise just how little I know and how much I want to know.

Flogen

Gleanndún

i wasnt implying that the revival of irish is solely the government's responsibility either, it is everyone's responsibility, but as such is ALSO the gov't's responsibility. they have an obligation, i feel, but not at all that they alone have it.

An Fear Aniar

Originally posted by flogen

Im not sure were your from, but I live in Dublin, and if and when I learn Irish, it will be very difficult for me to put it to use. I will try, but I know for certain that it will be a 1 in 100 (or more) chance that I get to speak in Irish to a sales rep, or read product info in irish, or something like that.

Sorry, Flogen a chara, I'm being the biggest hypocrite of all coz I'm from Mayo but living in London right now. I'm not a native speaker, alas. If I was in Ireland I'd probably be too embarassed to speak Irish to anyone, at least I can practice on the net. I know how difficult it is to get ANY opprtunity to speak Irish.

My apologies if I sounded like I was criticising.

Ádh mór ort a chara!!:ninja:

mike65

I guess the Irish language will only be rehabilitated
properly when ppl see a need to use it in everyday life.

Mike.

An Fear Aniar

Originally posted by mike65
I guess the Irish language will only be rehabilitated
properly when ppl see a need to use it in everyday life.

Mike.

Well, people speak about how Israel revivied Hebrew but in that case all the returning Jews spoke loads of different languages so they needed a common language to communicate.

Finland, however, voluntarily switched back from Russian to Finnish, even though there was probably no pressing need for it, there was just the will to do it. In Finland's case however, they had a lot more rural Finnish speakers left than in the case of Ireland.

stormkeeper

I'd love to see this myself. I'm not a native of Ireland myself, in fact I'm English b y birth, but I've always wanted to learn Irish, but unfortunately for me, I was taken out of the class in first year at school, and before that I stopped doing it after second or third class at primary. I'd be more than willing to learn Irish, and I was hoping that something like this would happen, as I've seen that in Holland, the people used Dutch for everyday life.

I actually wished we would do it here too, but I thought it would be next to impossible as Irish was considered a somewhat 'dead' language. My apologies if I insulted anyone. I would welcome this change, as even while I'm out, I find myself reading the Irish portion of a sign first as opposed to the English, such as on locations on the bus, and road signs, since I'm in a somewhat rural area.

Anyway, to make a long rant short, I'd be more than willing to learn Irish, in fact I think doing this would give me more motivation to, since the last language I learnt, German, I forgot because I had no use for it.

simu

If I was in Ireland I'd probably be too embarassed to speak Irish to anyone, at least I can practice on the net.

I'd rarely speak Irish to a total stranger unless I was sure they spoke it too (i.e. if I was in a Gaeltacht or if I knew the person had Irish) but I do speak Irish to a lot of ppl I know because I met them in Irish-speaking circles.

For people in Dublin with some Irish for example, you could try going to an Irish play the next time there's one on and if you get to know ppl and meet them again later on, it's likely you will continue speaking in Irish.

That's generally what happens, especially with Irish speakers who live outside the Gaeltachtaí - they have a circle of friends and aquaintances with whom they speak Irish whenever they see them.

GuanYin

Because I don't look Irish, I often overhear people talking in Irish about me in Irish Speaking Environments. Usually thats when I'll start up a conversation.

The situation here is ridiculous, even the Gaelteact areas who have (or did have) tax benefits are scamming the government and its estimated that the actual areas that are Irish speaking are 20% of the size of those claiming to be.

The only reason or way Irish will ever make a come back is if young people see a reason to learn it or see a benefit to it. Forcing them to learn it in school or for college admission is not such a way.

Unfortunately, most Irish language social outing to attract people to the language are ridiculously stereotyped to ceilis and such (we may as well go hunting leperachauns and have drunken punch ups ala "The Quiet Man" at these) and attract more foreigners than Irish people.

Bord Na Gaeilga have started offering free Irish language courses in some colleges and schools now and are trying a new approach with more respectability but having taken part in a few locally I've noticed the same trends.

Places like Trí D are a nice effort, but I've been disappointed when I visited (usually alone if I'm waiting for a train or something) as noone really interacts and teh staff make no effort to converse apart from serving you (although they may have thought I was a foreigner, even though I do order in Irish).

Its a real pity, because I enjoy Club an Chonradh and bumping into friends I know for the Irish speaking community here. Perhaps a boards based Irish language social would be an idea. Might attract those on boards who want to improve their conversational skills....

mike65

This from the Sunday Times today-

Tacsai signs fail the NCT

Richard Oakley

TAXIS are failing the NCT because they have a word in Irish — the country’s first official language — on their signs. The word? Tacsai, the Gaelic for taxi.

The revelation that the signs, used by “tacsai” drivers for years, are in breach of government regulations has been slammed by an Irish-language lobby group. Conradh na Gaeilge said that not allowing taxi drivers to use Irish signs may even be illegal under legislation protecting people’s rights to use Irish. The group has demanded that the regulations be changed immediately.

“We can’t believe this is happening. It is a disgrace,” said Deirdre Ni Mhuiri of Conradh. “If a person wants to conduct their business in Irish, they have to be allowed to do so.” The Official Languages Act, passed last year by the Oireachtas, stipulates that Irish people have the right to do their business in the first official language.

Vincent Kearns of the National Taxi Drivers’ Union said he was aware of a number of taxi drivers whose cars were not passed because their signs were in Irish. He said the rule was “madness”.

“Taxi drivers who want to promote the language should be allowed to do so. It is not as if people will not know they are taxis,” said Kearns.

Sean Crowe, a Sinn Fein TD, has raised the issue with the Department of Transport. “The NCT is supposed to be about safety, but whether a sign is in Irish or not has nothing to do with safety, so this is just plain silly,” he said. The NCT, which is being criticised for following regulations too strictly, has repeatedly said that it has no option but to do so and has pointed out that it does not make the rules.

The department of transport, which does, said its attention had been drawn to the problem recently. Jim McDaid, the junior transport minister, has asked officials to address the matter.

Some taxi drivers are flouting the regulation anyway. Patrick Whelan and his wife, Helen, who run Carlow Cabs in Carlow, operate a fleet of taxis that use the Irish version of the sign. Last month an NCT garage refused to sanction two new cars owned by the Whelans as taxis because of their signs. Helen Whelan used stickers to get the cars passed, and has since reverted the signs back to their original state.

“I couldn’t believe it when they told me that two new cars had failed the test,” she said. “Plenty of taxis use Irish signs in Carlow because the language is strong here. This law is just stupid and shouldn’t be enforced.”

:eek:

Mike.

simu

Unfortunately, most Irish language social outing to attract people to the language are ridiculously stereotyped to ceilis and such (we may as well go hunting leperachauns and have drunken punch ups ala "The Quiet Man" at these) and attract more foreigners than Irish people.

That's annoying. That's why I think it gets better once you actually have friends who speak Irish and you can just do whatever you want together.

That said, I live in Galway and i have to say that Irish speaking activities are generally more modern there - they have an Irish night in a night club regularly and they put more original plays and things on.

Suaimhneach

The café Trí D was a dissapointment for me too. I greeted them in Irish, but they responded in english...and I look Irish.

But I have been to the theatre of Henry's Street..forget the name...and it puts on Irish plays. Quite good ones too. I saw one on Pádraig O'Conaire. I really enjoyed it, and everyone there was speaking Irish. If you are in a setting where everyone is, or is trying to speak Irish it becomes much easier.

I really have to go to Club Conradh na Gaeilge one of these days. Seems like a good laugh. Do the bouncers speak Irish by any chance? Or is there even bouncers? That way, I'll be in the place for a good chat in Irish.

simu

I saw one on Pádraig O'Conaire.

Chonaic mise é sin leis! Bhí sé ar fheabhas!

Suaimhneach

Bain mé an taitneamh as freisin! Chuaigh mé le mo phríomhíde agus timpeall séisúr daltaí eile. Rachainn arís da geobhfainn sheans.