Bringing Irish back into the public domain

magpie

Cen fath? ta me ag leabhairt gaeilge. Is maith liom gaeilge. Ar maith libh Kila?

Bard

Magpie banned from Gaeilge (Irish) board for 2 weeks for trolling. I suggest he read the charter, specifically rules 2, 4 and 7.

jesjes almost banned for feeding the troll.

Bígí cúramach!

Suaimhneach

I guess I did feed it. But only because it was so frustrating. Brón orm. Ach scrios sé ar thread aláinn. [He ruined our lovely thread]. Thanks anyway Bard.

stormkeeper

Originally posted by flogen
Kennett, your not wrong in what you say, which is why i would like to see big shops being forced to display dual prices etc (see the original post for my other ideas!!). There is no need to learn Irish at the moment, but if enough is done there could be in years to come

I'd be all for a method to actually be able to have motivation to actually learn Irish, where I currently have very little. I won't actually remember a language unless I actualy have a use for it, so my reasoning for now is "If I have no opportunity to use it, why learn?" I know it's a bit pigheaded, but I don't want to spend all that time learning a language, only to forget it a couple of months later, just because I haven't been able to use it, which I find a little upsetting. Ie: I learnt German for a year, and forgot a lot of it, because I never needed to use it. In fact, I know more Irish that I was taught in Second Class at Primary school than I knew German I was taught 3 years ago!

I'm not an Irish native originally, but I've been here so long, I've pretty much fallen in love with the place, and I appriciate ways of giving us our identity back. In fact, I recall myself once saying that because we lost the Punt to the Euro, we lost a part of ourselves. Of course, going back to Irish, when I started Secondary school, I did a couple of weeks of Irish before I was taken out, so I've effectively been passed by for learning it at school.

I did, however, to make up for it, by a learn Irish pack, but I have barely looked at it sadly, because I'm waiting for an excuse to learn it so I can put it to use, as opposed to forgetting about it because no one speaks Irish. The only Irish I can really recognise is a few basic words, and a few town names, in fact, I look at the Irish names of the towns or places before the actual English names, which means I immediately know that Cill Dara means Kildare, An Lár means City Centre, etc.

That's about the only way I even use Irish nowadays. I remember going to The Netherlands last year, and I saw them conversing in Dutch as an every day language, only switching to English when there was someone who didn't understand Dutch was about.

On a parting note, I am appalled and dismayed at the attitude of magpie towards the Irish language. I feel that as Irish is supposed to be our first language, we should have the right to use it, and not come under fire for it. As mentioned before, but in another way; A foreign person going to the likes of The Netherlands wouldn't complain about everyone using Dutch there or needing to know it to work there, so what is different here, I would like to know? Do we not have the right to use the Irish language in conversation, or ask that it be needed for a job?

That's pretty much my ranting overwith for the day, sorry if I went on a bit long... I think I'm somehow trying to prove a point, but unsure if it is getting across, lol

Gleanndún

Originally posted by Bard
Magpie banned from Gaeilge (Irish) board for 2 weeks for trolling. I suggest he read the charter, specifically rules 2, 4 and 7.

jesjes almost banned for feeding the troll.

Bígí cúramach!

Here Here Bard!
Although, could sum1 explain 2 me wut "trolling" is??

neway, as i just caught up on the thread since my last post (aalll the way bout 1/3 down the 1st pg) it was so infuriated 2 not b able 2 lash out at that @$$ hole (r we allowe d 2 say that?) barred by the wall of time, but i was so infuriated i dont kno if i couldve formed the words. go nithe an chat é agus an diabhal an chat, and then have a ladder of the bones of his back and b usin it 2 pick apples in the garden of hell. its bc of bastards like him that the language is dyin, and i cant think of a way 2 get rid of em!:mad: a chríosta.

Gleanndún

Originally posted by flogen
thanks for those links jesjes
And modern Irish was jsut regulated, not bastardised. Theres little hope for a struggling language that is different from one end of the island to the other, all languages are regulated, its how it works
Flogen

I actually think that in a lot of cases they butcher it, e.g. the deletion of the dative case---was that REALLY necessary?

back on the topic of irish, please excuse the rancor of my previous post;)

David-[RLD]-

what's the dative case?

and i think trolling means either looking for attention or purposely looking to be flamed.

David-[RLD]-

Originally posted by magpie
Oh really? I thought Ireland consisted of a loose conglomeration of warring tribes and families, one of whom invited the Normans in to defeat the Viking King of Dublin.

most countries except Ireland were actually like that.

Ireland was an independent state divided into four provinces each with a Rí at the top, and then the Ard-Rí watching over everything.

we were one of the first countries in the world to use democracy. we elected our leaders. royalty had nothing to do with family. you were elected, plain and simple. if you didn't get the right amount of votes, you weren't king.

and then of course the Brits invaded and changed everything for the worse, nearly wiped out our culture and destroyed our language.

Capt'n Midnight

Originally posted by An Fear Aniar
Finland, however, voluntarily switched back from Russian to Finnish, even though there was probably no pressing need for it, there was just the will to do it. In Finland's case however, they had a lot more rural Finnish speakers left than in the case of Ireland.

Yeah there was a lot of revival movements in Europe back then - IIRC Hungarian had almost died out, only spoken in a remote rural area, and was revived enough to become the national langague, and by all accounts it has changed completely in the last 50 years, pronucation not being as precise as before.

Best thing the Gov't could do is to ban the language - people would go out of their way to learn it.

BTW: Start giving your address in Irish, mail still gets delivered, but since the names can be so different you could hide from stakers and debt collectors (for a while).

Didn't someone point out that Hiberno-English has more sounds than most other EU languages, so we really use Irish could help us learn them (alwasy amazed that Germans thought that Irish was a harsh sounding language).

Just have to agree on the way Irish was thought - in primary my Irish book had more lines of text per page than the English book - and in secondary the French teacher had to explain the conditional to us as the "Moigh connaileach" (SP) because we had only done Grammer in Irish (not English) until then...

Gleanndún

Irish has a suprising amount sounds, more than many languages. italian and spanish have almost none at all, french has sum bc its original celt shows through the romantic sumwut, and the germanic lang also have a moderate amount. i think the only other comparable lang group would b slavic, which also has a lotta sounds in it. yea--irish has a whole lotta sounds, and makes it pretty hard 2 say:dunno:

Gleanndún

Originally posted by David-[RLD]-
most countries except Ireland were actually like that.

Ireland was an independent state divided into four provinces each with a Rí at the top, and then the Ard-Rí watching over everything.

we were one of the first countries in the world to use democracy. we elected our leaders. royalty had nothing to do with family. you were elected, plain and simple. if you didn't get the right amount of votes, you weren't king.

the ardrígh was a yr long position, right?

im so curious about the old irish system--i knew that ardrígh was elected, but im interested in all the details. ne1 kno ne resources?

Suaimhneach

It's so much effort to read "txt tlk" these days!!

I love the idea of the old system too. I've been to a few lectures on old Irish ways.

Brehon law was what they lived by. I'll do a search on google.

*Results*

http://szabo.best.vwh.net/brehon.html

http://www.from-ireland.net/history/brehon.htm

http://www.obrien.ie/book214.cfm

http://www.internet-at-work.com/hos_mcgrane/celtic/eg_celtic_9.html

Some good ones. Also searched "celtic way of life". Loads of good sites!

Gleanndún

Cool, thanx!:D

and sorry bout the text talk, but im just so used to it. physicists are lazy:p

Seraphina

i'd just like to point out that even after only doing first year archaeology i know half of what you posted there is bull****.

very little is known about early irish society, but there were definately more than four kings Dave...

Doctor Funfrock

i'll do my part!

conas atá sibh??

David-[RLD]-

Originally posted by Seraphina
i'd just like to point out that even after only doing first year archaeology i know half of what you posted there is bull****.

very little is known about early irish society, but there were definately more than four kings Dave...

Er.. no.. we were democratic. And if what you say is true then how come the ancient Irish stories only speak of the "king of Ulster", "king of Munster", "king of Connacht" or the "king of Leinster"?

Ever read An Lasair Choille?

David-[RLD]-

Sorry there were five. I forgot about Meath.

http://www.ireland-now.com/facts/provinces.html

In ancient times, Ireland was divided into provinces, each ruled by a King.

Johnmb

Originally posted by David-[RLD]-
Er.. no.. we were democratic. And if what you say is true then how come the ancient Irish stories only speak of the "king of Ulster", "king of Munster", "king of Connacht" or the "king of Leinster"?

Ever read An Lasair Choille?

No we weren't. Kings were elected, but those elections would often be by why of a nice big fight. Every Thuath had a king. Some kings had a few thuatha submitting to them. The highest kings were the provincial ones. Leinster seems to have been more honourery than anything else. Munster, for most of the time known, had no provincial king. there were five provences by the way, not four. And only certain individuals could become a king, it was not open to everyone. It depended on your derbfine (sp?).

Wolff

quote:

---

most countries except Ireland were actually like that.

Ireland was an independent state divided into four provinces each with a Rí at the top, and then the Ard-Rí watching over everything.

we were one of the first countries in the world to use democracy. we elected our leaders. royalty had nothing to do with family. you were elected, plain and simple. if you didn't get the right amount of votes, you weren't king.

and then of course the Brits invaded and changed everything for the worse, nearly wiped out our culture and destroyed our language.

---

talk about rose tinted glasses

Ah the dirty Brits again is it me or did they leave 80 years ago

Maybe we would have had more knowledge about our history if the fudging IRA hadnt burned down the bleedin national archive !

David-[RLD]-

does everything on boards have to turn into an anti-IRA rant?

maybe some backontopicage?

Johnmb

Originally posted by David-[RLD]-
maybe some backontopicage?

Well, to be fair, you were the one who brought up a fantasy world that is known not to have existed (we do have a large selection of early Irish laws explaining much about those topics).

David-[RLD]-

Well if you like i could invite Kila back to troll some more. I was just correcting him/her/it.

Johnmb

Originally posted by David-[RLD]-
Well if you like i could invite Kila back to troll some more. I was just correcting him/her/it.

Reading back on what I've missed, it would seem to be Magpie you were correcting, although what you said regarding history was equally as wrong as what he said (maybe even moreso). Other than that, I can see why everyone was so pissed off with him/her/it

To get back on topic, I think one very easy way to encourage the use of Irish would be to switch the street signs so that the Irish name is in the big letters, and the English name is in the smaller letters above it. You'd be amazed at how something as simple as that helps people get used to a language (the Greek equivilent helps me get used to the Greek letters within a couple of days whenever I get to Athens). People would be more inclined to learn the Irish names at least, and that would hopefully encourage them to learn some of the more basic phrases (e.g. directions) to go along with them, ideally creating a snowball effect.

As for the politics, I don't consider Irish a political issue (although I would like to see the government do more to help the language, but as a civil service thing rather than as a party policy). Politically, I consider myself a European, culturally, I consider myself Irish.

David-[RLD]-

Woops. Kinda got mixed up there. I was too busy looking over Magpie's trolling and got confuzzled. Apologies.

Gleanndún

I just caught up and learned that a national archive had been burned----i'm gonna need a moment...

stormkeeper

Originally posted by Johnmb
To get back on topic, I think one very easy way to encourage the use of Irish would be to switch the street signs so that the Irish name is in the big letters, and the English name is in the smaller letters above it. You'd be amazed at how something as simple as that helps people get used to a language (the Greek equivilent helps me get used to the Greek letters within a couple of days whenever I get to Athens). People would be more inclined to learn the Irish names at least, and that would hopefully encourage them to learn some of the more basic phrases (e.g. directions) to go along with them, ideally creating a snowball effect.

Ironically enough, I actually read the Irish on the road signs first. They also have the placenames on the bus as well, and if I recall, Dublin Bus put the Irish names above the English, plus one or two signs inside partiular buses are only Irish. Most of them are dual-language however, even the ones with the Irish only signs. Bus Éireann operate a similar approach, I believe? Anyway, I actually know lots of place names in Irish now, which can only be a good thing, right?

stormkeeper

Originally posted by Gleanndún
I just caught up and learned that a national archive had been burned----i'm gonna need a moment...

Yeah, I was in shock too...

Gleanndún

It's a horror.

I think that is one of the most evil and heinous acts that a person can perpetrate. It wrenches my heart, incenses my viens, and spears needles through my soul:(

Ailill

Ireland was an independent state divided into four provinces each with a Rí at the top, and then the Ard-Rí watching over everything.

we were one of the first countries in the world to use democracy. we elected our leaders. royalty had nothing to do with family. you were elected, plain and simple. if you didn't get the right amount of votes, you weren't king.

and then of course the Brits invaded and changed everything for the worse, nearly wiped out our culture and destroyed our language.

This is increidble revisionism. I suggest you go to a library and get a good history book. Gaelic Ireland, from earliest times up until 1603 was ruled by a patchwork of petty kingdoms who were engaged in incessant warfare on each other. It was a Bronze Age warrior culture. There was supposed to be a Rú-righe and an Ard Rí but there were usually so many rival claimants that the post was only a nominal one, this High King rarely had de facto power over much except his own territory.

Even Brian Ború didn't fully unite the island, there were areas in the south and north which were out of his control. That's the reason Ireland was so easy to invade, we had no central government and were too busy fighting each other to be concerned about foreigners.

As for democracy, forget it. The ordinary life for the majority of people, the bó-aire or betagh class was grim toil and serfdom.

Gaelic Ireland, politically was a bit like modern day Afghanistan or Somalia, ruled by feuding warlords.

Johnmb

Originally posted by Ailill
This is increidble revisionism. I suggest you go to a library and get a good history book. Gaelic Ireland, from earliest times up until 1603 was ruled by a patchwork of petty kingdoms who were engaged in incessant warfare on each other. It was a Bronze Age warrior culture. There was supposed to be a Rú-righe and an Ard Rí but there were usually so many rival claimants that the post was only a nominal one, this High King rarely had de facto power over much except his own territory.
Even the concept of a single king of Ireland came much later (as in, roughly when the Uí Neill tired to expend at first). In the laws that we know of, the concept is recognised, but not the actual position.

Even Brian Ború didn't fully unite the island, there were areas in the south and north which were out of his control. That's the reason Ireland was so easy to invade, we had no central government and were too busy fighting each other to be concerned about foreigners.
Actually, I'd disagree with that last assessment. I reckon that is what made Ireland so difficult to invade. Look at England for an example. The Vikings conquered large parts because once they beat one king they took over. In Ireland they only managed a few settlements, because once they beat one king, there was another waiting for them. The same went for the Normans. They arrived in c. 1169 IIRC, and yet it took until c. 1603 (maybe even later) before they completed the task. How many other areas the size of Ireland can you name that took so long to conquer?

As for democracy, forget it. The ordinary life for the majority of people, the bó-aire or betagh class was grim toil and serfdom.
Yes. While Ireland offered more chance for advancement than the feudal systems, it still was nowhere near what we would class as democracy.

Gaelic Ireland, politically was a bit like modern day Afghanistan or Somalia, ruled by feuding warlords.
And even the written laws insured that the wealthier you were, the more rights you had. It wasn't like modern times were written laws treat everyone equally, but reality is different. Back then, even the ideals of written law made sure that there were clear distinctions.