The Rise and Fall of ManU

jank

Originally posted by sjones
. Get real - 2nd in the league and getting beat by arsenal this far in the fa cup? that's an excellent season!

sure it is if your a liverpool fan,
are manchester utd the new liverpool!
watch this space.......

scojones

That's bull****. ****ing abu's

SteM

It's amazing how Arsenal fans have become as arrogant as United fans were once accused of being

I arrived in this morning to be told by an Arsenal fan that they were now favourites for the European Cup - yeah right by getting to the quarter final in a field that still contains Real and last years finalists AC Milan.

Dustaz

Originally posted by SteM

I arrived in this morning to be told by an Arsenal fan that they were now favourites for the European Cup - yeah right by getting to the quarter final in a field that still contains Real and last years finalists AC Milan.

Actually, its the bookies that made them favorites.

Im an arsenal fan and i dont think theyll win it.



Apologies about the strong language folks. The double standards was doing my head in.

GuanYin

Current odds are (courtesy of odds checker) Real Madrid (3/1), Arsenal (7/2), Milan (11/2), Chelsea (13/2), Deportivo (15/2), Porto (14/1)

Second favourites is just about right imho.

Success breeds arrogance, but I wouldn't lump all fans together, kaids, Dustaz and Gandalf are very balanced Arsenal fans, just the same as talla and PHB are balanced Utd fans.

SteM

Originally posted by Dustaz
Actually, its the bookies that made them favorites.

Im an arsenal fan and i dont think theyll win it.



Apologies about the strong language folks. The double standards was doing my head in.

Yeah, I checked with Paddy Power before I posted and they're second favourites behind Real.

GuanYin

Its pretty obvious that all is not well at Utd. Fergie has made some startling errors in judgement this season, his weakened side against fulham in the league now looks fatal following the CL exit.

However, some Arsenal fans have a short memory, last season they finished second with the FA cup. If Utd do the same this year, it doesn't exactly imply a gulf in class between the two sides.

As it stands I can see Arsenal doing the domestic double, they are capable of the CL but i think the more defensive European teams may frustrate them.

As for transfers, I think it is too easy and too soon to blast all of fergies signings, Bellion, Ronaldo and Kleiberson will come good I think. Howard is a good keeper, but was aided to some degree by good cover from his defence. The form of Utds outfield players mean he has conceded bad goals and it may have knocked his confidence. It doesn't make him a bad keeper though. One thing I will say, Arsenal definitely got the better England defender. Maybe not the better all round player, but definitely the better defender and better professional, for free aswell!

Michelangelo

Originally posted by syke
Current odds are (courtesy of odds checker) Real Madrid (3/1), Arsenal (7/2), Milan (11/2), Chelsea (13/2), Deportivo (15/2), Porto (14/1)

Second favourites is just about right imho.

Success breeds arrogance, but I wouldn't lump all fans together, kaids, Dustaz and Gandalf are very balanced Arsenal fans, just the same as talla, MICHELANGELO and PHB are balanced Utd fans.

Thanks man.

Appreciated!

jank

Originally posted by sjones
That's bull****. ****ing abu's

NO thats just selling yourself short

i suppose fergies aim this season was to get knocked out of all comps and come second in the league! come on now get real, the season is not yet over but if the above happens you call it an EXCELLENT season!

its the first time i have ever seen a man utd fan acknowledge that a trophyless season was an excellent season!

Thanks man.

Appreciated!

and you wonder why people call you a .......well lets not go down that road:rolleyes:

Emboss

Originally posted by syke
Its pretty obvious that all is not well at Utd. Fergie has made some startling errors in judgement this season, his weakened side against fulham in the league now looks fatal following the CL exit.

However, some Arsenal fans have a short memory, last season they finished second with the FA cup. If Utd do the same this year, it doesn't exactly imply a gulf in class between the two sides.

As it stands I can see Arsenal doing the domestic double, they are capable of the CL but i think the more defensive European teams may frustrate them.

As for transfers, I think it is too easy and too soon to blast all of fergies signings, Bellion, Ronaldo and Kleiberson will come good I think. Howard is a good keeper, but was aided to some degree by good cover from his defence. The form of Utds outfield players mean he has conceded bad goals and it may have knocked his confidence. It doesn't make him a bad keeper though. One thing I will say, Arsenal definitely got the better England defender. Maybe not the better all round player, but definitely the better defender and better professional, for free aswell!

He played a team at fullham who he thought could do a job if we had beaten them 4-0 everyone would be calling him a genuis for picking a great team and resting great players...

the team that he chose should have slaughtered fullham they didn't that's tough **** they knew what they were playing for when they went on the field and they didn't do a job that they're highly paid to do.

that's not alex fergusons fault

as for transfers kleiberson, bellion, djemba x2 (who's not a bad player) are not up to the standards that old trafford demands diego also, ronaldo is the only one who _might_ hangaround..

what i do blame ferguson for is not buying a solid defender knowing he was going to loose rio they wouldn't pay out 4 million for southgate who would have been a perfect replacment 4 million to united is nothing and it was bad judgment.

scojones

Originally posted by jank
its the first time i have ever seen a man utd fan acknowledge that a trophyless season was an excellent season!

That's because i'm not one of those plastic man united supporters that started following united when they were winning everything. I'm a united fan since before all that. And yes, no matter the outcome, man united had an excellent season. Do i have to even insert IMHO at the end of this post?

Michelangelo

as for transfers kleiberson, bellion, djemba x2 (who's not a bad player) are not up to the standards that old trafford demands diego also, ronaldo is the only one who _might_ hangaround..

I disagree. I think Bellion/Kleberson/Djemba(especially) will be heavily involved in the season after next.

Ronaldo, no doubt about it, this guy is going to be big.

Emboss

Originally posted by sjones
That's because i'm not one of those plastic man united supporters that started following united when they were winning everything. I'm a united fan since before all that. And yes, no matter the outcome, man united had an excellent season. Do i have to even insert IMHO at the end of this post?

like when lee martin was a worl class defender?

and brian mc clair was uniteds maradonna ? :P

GuanYin

Originally posted by Emboss
what i do blame ferguson for is not buying a solid defender knowing he was going to loose rio they wouldn't pay out 4 million for southgate who would have been a perfect replacment 4 million to united is nothing and it was bad judgment.

Yeah agreed, I was gonna put that in too, but yo're in danger of being eaten alive around here if you don't balance your posts just right.

I think an experienced defender and a high potential youth are in order. Southgate and Dawson would be good buys (but you better pay Forest top dollar!)

jank

Originally posted by sjones
That's because i'm not one of those plastic man united supporters that started following united when they were winning everything. I'm a united fan since before all that. And yes, no matter the outcome, man united had an excellent season. Do i have to even insert IMHO at the end of this post?

no you have your opinion and i respect that, i just seems strange to me that man u supports would accept that however you are free to your opinion

Emboss

Originally posted by Michelangelo
I disagree. I think Bellion/Kleberson/Djemba(especially) will be heavily involved in the season after next.

Ronaldo, no doubt about it, this guy is going to be big.

that's just crazy talk

<edit> don't get me wrong i really like djemba djemba but if he's going to play a _big_ part next year he really has to up his game like phil has i was never a big fan of phils technical ability but he has really up'd his game which mostly goes unoticed by abu's<edit>

GuanYin

Originally posted by Michelangelo
I disagree. I think Bellion/Kleberson/Djemba(especially) will be heavily involved in the season after next.

Ronaldo, no doubt about it, this guy is going to be big.

You'll not win anything with kids

Michelangelo

Originally posted by Emboss
that's just crazy talk

In all fairness, who can really tell whether or not they will become good. I have only seen then when they have played and they are not bad players by any means.

elbow316

I think the most striking thing about United's team this season so far has been the lack of leadership and "Characters" on the pitch. Presuming they bring in 1 or 2 players over the summer, Ferguson should definitely be looking to ensure what they have stronger personalities than people like kleberson and Bellion. Good players they may be but they aren't replacements for peole like Sheringham and Stam who seemed to have a much greater influence.
They're just simply too reliant on keane to spur things on, expecially when you compare it to the spine of the Arsenal team, which would be Lehmann -- Campell -- Vieira -- Henry.

Oh and Syke - I'm as balanced as I can possibly be

Emboss

Originally posted by Michelangelo
In all fairness, who can really tell whether or not they will become good. I have only seen then when they have played and they are not bad players by any means.

not bad is not good enough for united anymore....just been a "not bad" player won't win you another cl

PHB

Isn't hindsight nice?

Sure we can say now that a defender would have been great, but tbh I believed that Neville, Slyvestre, and Brown would be able to hold it together at the back.

He bought an extra striker as he needed cover for Van N, as everyone else on this board was saying before the rio ban.

Michelangelo

Originally posted by PHB
Isn't hindsight nice?

Sure we can say now that a defender would have been great, but tbh I believed that Neville, Slyvestre, and Brown would be able to hold it together at the back.

He bought an extra striker as he needed cover for Van N, as everyone else on this board was saying before the rio ban.

You and me both, I assumed they would be ok too. I mean we are not pathetically short at back but I don't know. Defence play **** all the games up to Porto, then for the Porto match, the whole team defends brilliantly especially Brown up until Phil gives away a soft free kick and tim parrys it to Contantinha.

MisterAnarchy

The demise in the present United team has been apparent over the last 2 years.
It isnt since the absence of Rio Ferdinand that United have become a shadow of the team of 99.
Before Ferdinand was suspended I watched United stumble their way against poor opposition week in week out.
In the second week of the season Utd barely beat an impotent Wolves team 1-0.
They then lost away to Wolves to compound matters.
They were very poor at home to both Arsenal and Newcastle and struggled terribly to break down the opposition.
I've seen most of there matches this season and I can remember very few good performance.
Generally United have won by the odd goal.
The first half away to Everton was reminiscent of old.
The current shape of the team is lopsided and doesnt attack as a unit.
The gap between the defence and the forwards / forward is huge and the midfield dont get forward enough.
Against Porto on Tuesday night how many of the starting eleven could be regarded as a goalscorer ?
Rudi,Scholes and probably Giggs on a good day.
Apart from that the rest of the team dont score goals regularly.
The old United motto was stretch the opposition by employing two wingers to feed twin strikers who would stretch the defence to create
space for the central midfielders.
The current strategy seems to employ playing 2 to 3 holding midfielders ,tuck Giggs and Scholes inside and Rudi up front.
This formation is easy to combat and very predictable.
The sharp passing movements are being replaced by hoofing long balls forward.
United may consider themselves the biggest club in the world but that means very little on the field.
They have been buying reject players over the last few years and everytime they are on the cresp of buying someone decent they
publicise it and the deal blows up in their face.
After missing out on Ronaldinho Ferguson should have bought the next best thing Rivaldo.
He was available on a free and although he is temperamental he is the type of player needed by United and should have been bought years
ago instead of that dud Veron.
The talent brought up through the United training scheme unearthed some fantastic talent and this seems to have dried up .
It is tough on Ferguson now as he has had to look to buy players but his criteria has been limited by pursestrings.
Ferguson seems to prefer the grafter to the flair player who may be temperamental.
Look at how many average players are in the United team now.
If Ferguson buys 4 top quality players in the summer, A central defender,a left back ,a right winger and a left sided attacking midfielder the team will bounce back,otherwise it will decline further.
Perhaps Thuram,Lizarazu ,Rivaldo and Overmars ?
United need flair players to go with the grafters.
Its time to splash out big.
With these type players and playing 4-4-2 United would be reinvigorated

The Muppet

Originally posted by PHB
Isn't hindsight nice?

Sure we can say now that a defender would have been great, but tbh I believed that Neville, Sylvester, and Brown would be able to hold it together at the back.

He bought an extra striker as he needed cover for Van N, as everyone else on this board was saying before the Rio ban.

Have to say I expressed serious doubts about the decision not to strengthen the defence during the window. While injuries to Sylvester and suspension for Neville could not be predicted to expect Brown to fill in for Rio immediately after his long layoff was expecting too much.


Good post there MRANARCHY and while I would not agree with all of it or the signings you suggest IMO it is a accurate analysis of reasons for the problems at United

PHB

Originally posted by MisterAnarchy

Before Ferdinand was suspended I watched United stumble their way against poor opposition week in week out.

Really, thats weird? I could have sworn that they were one point clear at the top of the table and just like every other team, cept Arsenal, were having slip ups.

I've seen most of there matches this season and I can remember very few good performance.
Generally United have won by the odd goal.

I disagre. For example I thought man united deserved the win in the Arsenal game after playing very well. Yes they won by the odd goal here and there but generally if you actually look at the results they were very solid.

If Ferguson buys 4 top quality players in the summer, A central defender,a left back ,a right winger and a left sided attacking midfielder the team will bounce back,otherwise it will decline further.
Perhaps Thuram,Lizarazu ,Rivaldo and Overmars ?

While I agree with your senitments I disagre about your choices.

Left back? I don't think O shea needs to be replaced as if a central defender is brought slyvestre can play left back where he likes

Central defense: I still think Puyol is the best buy here
Left sided midfielder: I disagree. Did you see Ronaldo vs fulham, he was a very vey good player, well able to replace Giggs. They need a right sided midfielder, and a very good established one at that.

What I think they really need absolutley most is a play maker.

A Zidane or a Ronandhinho. Essentially a Brazilian or something

cournioni

Never write off Man United.

MisterAnarchy

I could have sworn that they were one point clear at the top of the table and just like every other team, cept Arsenal, were having slip ups.

Although United were top they were not achieving results in a convincing manner and winning most games by the odd goal.

Big Ears

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
Never write off Man United.

I thin u mean the Germans . One thing i hate about united fans is yee assume yee can buy any1 yee want , no matter how rich the club u would buy them off would be . Juventus arent going to let the (in my opinion ) best defender in the world (maybe chivu is better ) go to man united without a bid somewhere in the region of £50 million , united wouldnt pay £ 7 million for arjen robben they're harly gonna splah out £50 million for any1 . (Thurams just one example theres many more )

Also united arent going to hold the same dominence over the league as they used to , im not saying they wont win the title again for 20 years im saying the premiership is gonna become a little more open (once them Arsenal boys stop doing going un beaten , although they could go a while )

bribren2001

some people are going on about utd squad has enough quality but personally i think that utd has the second best squad of quality players in the premiership behind chelsea!
take arsenal all they have of any significance is kanu thats on the bench and real madrid have a first team of superstars but its subs bench is very weak!

James R

I think a big problem (not the only problem might I add) for Man U this season has been settling in with the new signings.

I met Kleberson and Ronaldo about 10 days ago and neither of them speak anything bar the most basic of English. This can't help much in every way from dishing out tactics to having a laugh with team-mates. Djemba Djemba probably ain't the strongest at English either while I doubt Forlan spoke much (if any) when he arrived. Its sure to have a big influence.

bribren2001

wow,are you serious-where did you meet them?